Arelith

All over the server there are undead mobs who are immune to fire with no real explanation for it. I'm pretty sure this is just a left-over result of having infinite casters like True Flame Sorcerers being able to spew out a whole bunch of fire spells. (Now we have the same, but more variance in damage types, and summons on top!)

The really frustrating thing about this is that fire is usually the go-to damage type when it comes to burning the undead. Divine/Positive damage types are great too, but it's still really strange to come up against skeletons, mummies, wraiths and so on that are flat out immune to fire.

Could this be looked at?

The server is super weird about this kind of thing in general. I remember when a lot of the shadow plane dungeons came out, the undead/shadow creatures in them had all these inexplicable immunities/large resistances against elements to a point that there was virtually no weapon essence or direct damage spell to use on them.

Then again, we also had a mechanically non-evil lich in Kohlingen for the longest time because of smite paladins being prevalent when the dungeon was introduced. It feels like RP and things that make sense IC take a major backseat to flavor of the month mechanics in a lot of the dungeon design of the server, and it's easier to just disconnect your brain than try to piece together some semblance of reason in the face of how it's just all over the place.

It'd be nice if the server generally kept a better parity to the lore of the setting in its mechanics, so that (random example) you can go, "Oh! Demons are just resistant to fire, but devils are immune to it. I should still be able to use fire on these spawns if I just layer it on heavy enough". With how things are normally, knowing that kind of thing just doesn't matter in 9/10 cases and you're better off just trying to go for whatever is most universally viable for any kind of enemy instead of tailoring your approach.

Dreams wrote: Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:02 am

All over the server there are undead mobs who are immune to fire with no real explanation for it.

Could this be looked at?

What undead NPCs? The palette is immense.

Za-Lord~s Guard wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:06 pm

It feels like RP and things that make sense IC take a major backseat to flavor of the month mechanics

real

Za-Lord~s Guard wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:06 pm

Then again, we also had a mechanically non-evil lich in Kohlingen for the longest time because of smite paladins being prevalent when the dungeon was introduced. It feels like RP and things that make sense IC take a major backseat to flavor of the month mechanics in a lot of the dungeon design of the server, and it's easier to just disconnect your brain than try to piece together some semblance of reason in the face of how it's just all over the place.

I saw demons summoning slaad today, which obviously means they've been made neutral instead of evil to avoid smites. I get why but that just seemed a really immersion breaking way to do it.

What's the point of Smite Evil if it doesn't work on demons?!

Eyeliner wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2023 7:53 pm

Za-Lord~s Guard wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2023 1:06 pm

Then again, we also had a mechanically non-evil lich in Kohlingen for the longest time because of smite paladins being prevalent when the dungeon was introduced. It feels like RP and things that make sense IC take a major backseat to flavor of the month mechanics in a lot of the dungeon design of the server, and it's easier to just disconnect your brain than try to piece together some semblance of reason in the face of how it's just all over the place.

I saw demons summoning slaad today, which obviously means they've been made neutral instead of evil to avoid smites. I get why but that just seemed a really immersion breaking way to do it.

What demons? Again, it is not helpful if NPCs aren't mentioned by name.

Dragonovith wrote: Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:43 pm

What demons? Again, it is not helpful if NPCs aren't mentioned by name.

Quoted for emphasis. Twohand has been extremely responsive to NPC (and area) feedback, but there are about 1700 unique monster blueprints on Arelith, and checking each of them individually is simply not feasible. Many of these inconsistencies could and would already have been addressed if there was a comprehensive list of them.

Before Smite Evil got reworked to Divine Smite, for instance, the ability could one-shot bosses and trivialized PvE content, so they were changed to neutral to preserve some semblance of difficulty. Nowadays, that's no longer necessary since the ability scales and works differently, so we wouldn't hesitate to adjust such creatures to match the lore.

I've checked the alignment of all undead bosses, demons, and devils. As a result, some changes are coming with an update, which is already in the pipeline:

• Two undead bosses will be changed from neutral to evil.
• Two devils, one neutral evil and another true neutral, will be updated to lawful evil.
• No changes to demons, as all are chaotic evil.

If people also want abilities, immunities, etc. checked, I will need the full NPC name.

The encounter was in the underdark orc citadel off the Deepkiln in the temple room that locks you in. I think that room summons different things so may be hard to replicate. I didn't think to screenshot or take notes to report it as I assumed that was just intended behavior.

Honestly too widespread for me to remember the exact names/locations. As a rough idea it’s most of the undead in shadow plane, Manfried’s related Minmir areas, some of the vampires in Skull Crags crypts, I’m pretty sure Cordor Crypts, all of the undead in the barrows of Brogendenstein. There’s probably more.

The alignment stuff is more widespread than just demons/devils but also includes a bunch of undead being neutral instead of evil.

Dreams wrote: Sat Aug 12, 2023 4:25 am

Honestly too widespread for me to remember the exact names/locations. As a rough idea it’s most of the undead in shadow plane, Manfried’s related Minmir areas, some of the vampires in Skull Crags crypts, I’m pretty sure Cordor Crypts, all of the undead in the barrows of Brogendenstein. There’s probably more.

The alignment stuff is more widespread than just demons/devils but also includes a bunch of undead being neutral instead of evil.

Some of the more exotic undead in the Shadow Plane and the Minmir Manor use vanilla skin items from Curst Undead (fire immune in the lore) and Shadow Fiends (also fire immune, but a Neverwinter Nights oc). Other undead NPCs, usually the more special ones like bosses, use skin items from Demiliches, Liches, Revenants, and etc. which have some pretty tough immunities in the lore (you can check them out on Realms Helps, a good online source for 3e material and lore). I can't speak of the Skull Crags vampires as I haven't looked at vampires yet, but the undead in the crypts and barrows you mentioned are not fire immune unless they cast energy resistance buffs. I'm slowly going through them and adjusting them as appropriate if needed, but it takes time, there are a lot of NPCs, but I'll focus first on undead, then on fiends. Did you know all Devils can see through magical darkness? They will be updated to reflect the lore.

About alignment, I only had to change three undead NPCs from neutral to evil and adjusted others, which already are evil, to reflect their correct alignment (like mummies, they are lawful evil). Do bear in mind that you can still run into non-evil undead like ghosts (they can be of any alignment) and curst undead (always chaotic neutral).

With the curst undead, do they respect the remove curse lore (considering suggestion if not)? If so, does the paladin oath of perseverance enhanced cure disease impact this in place of smite?

Oxtail_Soup wrote: Tue Aug 15, 2023 5:19 am

With the curst undead, do they respect the remove curse lore (considering suggestion if not)? If so, does the paladin oath of perseverance enhanced cure disease impact this in place of smite?

Responding to your message and the thread as a whole, I had a first pass over all fiends and undead NPCs (and no, it appears we don't have any actual curst undead, at least not for now, however we do use their models for other NPCs) and the changes are currently online. NPC alignments and immunities should be mostly correct now. I say "mostly" because while, for instance, devils and demons have distinct immunities and abilities, specific fiends have their own unique traits too. Like, demons are not immune to fire, but Balors are, and Kytons are immune to cold while all devils only have 10 cold DR. I will work on this, but it will take some time.

Thankyou, much appreciated, not a small job by the sounds of it!!