Too many warlock versus other casters

[Chloe123]

If I'd vote for a pay-to-play class I will 100% vote warlock, there's just too many QoL stuffs and flavours of them over other classes, no wonder UD is full of them and if it's not of RP reason, surfaces will be full of them too, Can we see some of their flavours to be moved to other caster classes in the future?

[Amateur Hour]

Warlock seems to be in a very strange place RP-wise too.

• The only non-rulebreak ways of identifying a warlock are a passed skill check on an Eldritch Blast or a confession. Caught casting literally dozens of mindfogs in a row, and someone accuses you of getting too cozy with a night hag or a redcap? You can report that!

• You are allowed to be a warlock nearly everywhere nowadays as long as you aren't actively summoning fiends or undead, so even if you do get caught, it probably won't have any consequences.

• The rule that all PC warlocks must have given informed consent for their pact is completely pointless. Though you can't actually play an unwilling or unwitting warlock, it's not a fact of the Arelith universe that no pacts are unwilling or unwitting. There's no way for other players to compel you to tell the truth, and there's no way to investigate a player's pact, so even if you do get caught and by some extreme show of bad luck you might be at risk of something resembling a consequence, you can just consistently lie to everyone and be for all practical purposes a totally innocent victim.

The only real cost to warlock compared to elementalist or sorcerer is that you don't get access to ESF cookies since you don't get 9th circle spells (though you can spend a feat to get the conjuration or abjuration cookies) and have a narrower spell range than true sorcerer. But you do get TRUE INFINICAST on so much stuff. Its insane power felt paid for before with the RP restrictions, that you had to be careful with how open you were, but now you just don't.

[Shadowy Reality]

Why do you care so much about finding Warlocks though?
Why do you say the class is not being picked for RP reasons?

Warlocks are not necessarily evil, they can be neutral. Not all Warlocks need to be murderous, or even villainous in their actions.

A hellish warlock that made a Pact Insidious should indeed roleplay being coerced into evil actions. That's the whole purpose of the pact, a baatorian sponsor gives you power and you must do typically increasingly evil favours, which will ultimately change your alignment to Evil and damn you to Hell.

If the warlock takes a Pact Certain, they get all the Power upfront with no need for extra deeds, because their soul is immediately damned to Hell (and their alignment is changed to evil). The Warlock can use their powers for whatever they want, even savies puppies. In this case typically the baatorian sponsor will try to have the Warlock die as fast as possible so they have no chance of redeption. (as far as I know it is possible through good deeds for them to change their alignment back to neutral and good, but I do not recall if this undamns their soul).

This is without going into other types of pacts (hello Star, hello Unseelie) where their actions may not even look blatantly evil, just part of a stranger design.

My point is, just because you don't see Warlocks being evil, does not mean they are not roleplaying accordingly. It may not be as interesting to those around if they were, but the same can be said about many other classes.

The only reason you see more Warlocks than other classes is because they play very easy, and that's it. It's a breeze to level them and they are fun, which traditional casters are typically not.

[Kythana]

Why do you say the class is not being picked for RP reasons?

Because mechanically, Warlock is currently one of the best choices to play.

Despite having options like conjuration spec wizard(lol), or pm(lol), if you want a class fantasy as a summoner, Warlock is the best choice due to their essentially WoF immune summon.

That's not even including all the others benefits they get like infinite casting or EB.

So yes, there is going to be a non negligible amount of players that are drawn to Warlock exclusively because it's a powerful pick.

Warlock needs to be tuned down a bit, and other casters need to be improved.

[Amateur Hour]

Why do you care so much about finding Warlocks though?
Why do you say the class is not being picked for RP reasons?

The issue here is that mechanical strength and roleplay difficulty can often be used to counter each other. Sure, undead summons can be really strong, but if your character is seen using them as a surfacer there's massive negative consequences, so you're likely to use them selectively. That used to be in play for warlocks - someone gets caught using warlock powers on the surface, there's negative consequences, so they'd have to use them selectively - but now there's literally no meaningful consequences whatsoever. Be your unrepentant warlock self.

In tabletop, the price of warlock pacts is usually in the pact terms itself, and DMs can bring it up when they want. But on Arelith you might as well have bought your pact for five copper pieces off a bored hag because obligation to the patron isn't required.

Full disclosure here: I played an infernal blaster warlock in the UD for a while. I loved it mechanically, and also loved the roleplay because I built in pact conditions where I'd roll her if she didn't do certain things. I think there's a lot of possibility within warlock, but I also know there's a lot of people who are playing it who just want the power and don't want to address the fact that their character made a bargain with an incredibly powerful, likely-malevolent (or at the very least decidedly non-benevolent) being to get it.

[Eyeliner]

This stuff comes in waves. Over the summer everyone was an invoker, now the buzz is to play warlocks, in January it'll be something else. Just let people play what they want, punitive corrections to make a popular class undesirable is not the way to go.

[AstralUniverse]

someone gets caught using warlock powers on the surface, there's negative consequences, so they'd have to use them selectively - but now there's literally no meaningful consequences whatsoever. Be your unrepentant warlock self.

As a big warlock enjoyer both on the surface and in the UD, and I say from experience that this is just incorrect. You use any form of blast even one time in sight of the wrong character (someone with high spellcraft) and all of a sudden you will over time notice you're less and less trusted by civil surface folk as the big reveal spreads, even if you're not doing anything openly evil such as undead/fiends or slavery, etc. I think the biggest turning point in every surface warlock's story is when they (eventually, inevitably) get exposed, and hopefully not too soon in their lifespan but it happens and the warlock faces difficult choices. In the UD you're just a part of the landscape and it's way more boring and static.
I think the addition of familiars and cantrips to warlocks actually really helped in making it easier for warlocks to blend in the surface and I think it's great.

Over all I think Warlock is a fantastic class in that it's very QoL, has a lot of RP cookies and suboptimal optional cool feats. It has several good warlock feats combinations which make for a very build diverse class. I hope everybody understands that Warlock is far from being overpowered, and it is simply very QoL and fun that has immense gold/rune grinding capabilities as well as potential boost to sail, more than anything else. This is a good thing. It raises Arelith to higher standards of class design and other less fun classes will slowly and eventually catch up (looking at you sorcerer, wizard, elementalist, hemomencer.... ba-- meh bard actually is fine).

And as said just above me, it comes in waves. Today people like warlocks, tomorrow they will like 2handed wm and abjurant spellsword again. If something was done right about Warlock's design and other classes less so, then it's not Warlock's fault.

[Old Lies Die Harder]

The issue with using 'roleplay difficulty' to balance 'mechanical strength' is having enforcement of that that doesn't suck.

Every time I remember seeing this relating to warlocks, the labor of doing it was outsourced to the playerbase. This resulted in a lot of situations that were put simply, utter crap, such as:
-"Prove you're not a warlock by casting a cantrip on this fixture" (you used to have to use target spells to trigger blast and couldn't turn it off)
-Low/midlevels being exiled from every/many settlements (Except UD) after being seen with The Eyes On, or using EB on something.
-constant respawn penalties from multiple, separate groups going to smite the infidel evil warlock

My point here is that with warlock in particular, increasing 'roleplay difficulty' has too often resulted in unplayability of the class/character because of the playerbase's difficulty with collaboration and nuance. At least now, you have a good chance of having someone pop out the trite and overdone "i can help u break ur pact" rather than being farmed like a mobile Orclands.

[AstralUniverse]

"Prove you're not a warlock by casting a cantrip on this fixture" (you used to have to use target spells to trigger blast and couldn't turn it off)

That cannot happen anymore but for the record, it would be very much meta-gaming.

Low/midlevels being exiled from every/many settlements (Except UD) after being seen with The Eyes On, or using EB on something.

No one is gonna waste an exile on you, and there are hidden scripts making it so low-mid levels are much harder to detect with spellcraft. You will eventually get exposed tho. Warlock life.

constant respawn penalties from multiple, separate groups going to smite the infidel evil warlock

If some group is targeting you even after they already killbashed you once, you concluded your RP with them (as in you're no longer affecting them through your RP), and they systematically come back for you, report them. They should move on, again, if you're not actively affecting them in your RP. If it's separate groups... you probably got unique talent for upsetting people. Maybe you deserve an RPR bump because there's no server rule protecting you from that.

Over all I think it used to be much harder to play surface warlock than it is now, because of cantrip and familiar access.

[Kythana]

This stuff comes in waves. Over the summer everyone was an invoker, now the buzz is to play warlocks, in January it'll be something else. Just let people play what they want, punitive corrections to make a popular class undesirable is not the way to go.

You're aware this didn't just happen for no reason, right?

Hemomancers were specifically nerfed shortly into September.

The reason Warlock is so popular is part of a deeper issue, and that's how every other caster is in a pretty lukewarm or dumpsterfire state compared to Warlocks.

There are a few reasons for that which I've already mentioned, but another part of the issue is how saving throws are incredibly high currently. Even classes without charisma to saves are getting 30-40 in every save.

So when a traditional caster's DCs are literally impossible to fail unless on a nat 1, and their summons are a scrolled WoF away from getting dismissed, is it really any surprise people choose to play the class that can spam saveless spells and have powerful summons that don't get removed?

[Old Lies Die Harder]

"Prove you're not a warlock by casting a cantrip on this fixture" (you used to have to use target spells to trigger blast and couldn't turn it off)

That cannot happen anymore but for the record, it would be very much meta-gaming.

Low/midlevels being exiled from every/many settlements (Except UD) after being seen with The Eyes On, or using EB on something.

No one is gonna waste an exile on you, and there are hidden scripts making it so low-mid levels are much harder to detect with spellcraft. You will eventually get exposed tho. Warlock life.

constant respawn penalties from multiple, separate groups going to smite the infidel evil warlock

If some group is targeting you even after they already killbashed you once, you concluded your RP with them (as in you're no longer affecting them through your RP), and they systematically come back for you, report them. They should move on, again, if you're not actively affecting them in your RP. If it's separate groups... you probably got unique talent for upsetting people. Maybe you deserve an RPR bump because there's no server rule protecting you from that.

Over all I think it used to be much harder to play surface warlock than it is now, because of cantrip and familiar access.

To be clear, I understand all of these points. I just rolled a warlock (for reasons not related to this topic or complaints within. Her story was just done. She never did get fully exposed though!), and leveled another type to 30, so I am familiar with modern mechanics, as well as rules.

The points I made above are intended to illustrate how things were at a time when warlocks were higher 'roleplay difficulty' and why I don't think 'roleplay difficulty' should be used to oppose the general oomph of a class.

With both of my recent warlocks as backup, I definitely agree that surface warlocks are much easier to play than the were in prior times (illustrated above in recollection of bad behavior).

[Chloe123]

So the new class spreadsheet comes out and it proves my guess, 68 warlock And it doesn't include deleted characters while warlock is one of the best classs for rolling for sacriface, so the number is definitely higher than 68.

Imo one of the issue is warlock is such an all-rounder, you can do damage(blast with shapes you choose), you can tank with summons(eldritch, undead, gate and you perma haste + heal it with blast), you are skill monkey(warlock has almost every important skills and they have familiars too). You don't need to play in party at all and solo the most difficulty dungeons easily.

Such a good solo capability might discourage RP, as you don't need to seek a party in compare with another popular caster class Bard, they will need to find a party for epic level writs and therefore will create RP and stories. But you as a warlock don't really need to. That the reason people rolls with warlock, they can level to 30 fast and with ease, don't need gears and don't need to RP with others. And imho this is unhealthy for a RP server. Warlock need to be tuned down a bit, at least not walk in Last Bastion nakely and still solo the dungeon.

[perseid]

Such a good solo capability might discourage RP, as you don't need to seek a party in compare with another popular caster class Bard, they will need to find a party for epic level writs and therefore will create RP and stories. But you as a warlock don't really need to. That the reason people rolls with warlock, they can level to 30 fast and with ease, don't need gears and don't need to RP with others. And imho this is unhealthy for a RP server. Warlock need to be tuned down a bit, at least not walk in Last Bastion nakely and still solo the dungeon.

I agree overall warlock is overdialed but I don't know if I really agree with the "they can solo which reduces rp" outlook when it comes to leveling. If someone decided to make a warlock purely because it can solo leveling content then they were already having trouble finding parties to level and rp with anyway. Soloability is only a perk in situations where grouping is either difficult or limits potential rewards and during writ content the xp is the main reward since you'll be at your strongest for money farming when you hit 30. And at 30 there's lots of setups that can solo lucratively, with the caveat warlock does enjoy the ability to solo a wide variety of content types. I'd be keener to point at things like the sheer amount of damage blastlocks can vomit out per-round in pvp before necessarily worrying over their ability to tackle pve.

[Kuma]

I don't know if I really agree with the "they can solo which reduces rp" outlook when it comes to leveling. If someone decided to make a warlock purely because it can solo leveling content then they were already having trouble finding parties to level and rp with anyway.

this is why i played one when i did, australian time zone is hellish

I definitely agree that surface warlocks are much easier to play than the were in prior times

i'm reasonably sure this was by design, too

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Such a good solo capability might discourage RP, as you don't need to seek a party in compare with another popular caster class Bard, they will need to find a party for epic level writs and therefore will create RP and stories. But you as a warlock don't really need to. That the reason people rolls with warlock, they can level to 30 fast and with ease, don't need gears and don't need to RP with others. And imho this is unhealthy for a RP server. Warlock need to be tuned down a bit, at least not walk in Last Bastion nakely and still solo the dungeon.

there are handful of classes that can solo similarly such as defiler and spellsword. warlock just does it best, but it's certainly not alone

[Kythana]

I would argue that totem druid or FVS falls into the camp of best soloer.

Plant shape + 5 summons does tends to destroy most content way faster than a warlock could.

And yet. Neither are played very much relative to warlock.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

true but also, I think druid is kind of boring to play specifically because it is so easy

[-XXX-]

IMO the popularity of warlocks is more related to the QoL rather than raw mechanical power.
Furthermore, the class offers a lot of space for customization - players can build a warlock any way they want to refect their RP and preferred playstyle and it'll likely stil be functional, whereas the majority of other classes are offering 2-3 "prescribed" optimal builds or it's dumpster fire land for them.

[Chloe123]

QoL, level of fun, pvp, I think there's a lot reasons make how warlocks are now, a wizard can also solo most contents with conduit + good hope, but it's not fun to idle behind summons in dungeon. Not to mention WoF kills their summons instantly. Plantshape Druid is powerful too in pve but the shape is ugly to be honest and element swarm is not enough to handle the top dungeons, while warlock has pocket wm that get perma haste and constantly healed from blast.

All in all, the class just has too many features added to it recently that result in it's popularity. The "balance based on pvp" principle just make the class too good right now.

[-stick-]

what makes Locks so OP is the fact they can chain those blasts to the point it sometimes glitches and bypass timestop,
a short delay in between casts could help with the issue by forcing them to move a little from blast to blast.

[Hin_Justice]

Someone mentioned the rules around discovering warlocks now:

The only non-rulebreak ways of identifying a warlock are a passed skill check on an Eldritch Blast or a confession. Caught casting literally dozens of mindfogs in a row, and someone accuses you of getting too cozy with a night hag or a redcap? You can report that!

So, as someone who played the OG version bard-path that came with a staff, and required you to chase down the NPCs to take said path? This QoL rule is in place because some people confused mechanics (Glowy eyes, Infi-cast spells, Chain Blast [Used to be the default spell EB was tied to]), for lore.

Warlocks who put skill points into their Perform or Bluff had their game play ruined from OOC knowledge of another player (knowing the class mechanics). And the player using that meta, would have their character tell any and all, "That's a warlock."

So why is this an issue? It is because you can't stop the meta train once it's moving. Because characters/other players will take the info you give them ICly as legit. So not having done the work of learning basic warlock lore? Well... it's selfish. And not part of the, "Be Nice," rule. You wanted that win at any cost and with no regard to the warlock's own fun.

This behavior still persists, but now warlocks have agency and know fully when someone is using metadata so we can report it more easily. We know people on Skal with high Spellcheck still lack the ability to read an eldritch blast in their combat logs. Which means we're less likely to be kill-bashed as super low levels there.

Warlock is also popular for PMs and Crowd-control specialists. However, in the wrong hands, a warlock will get your party killed by new players who don't understand the nuanced dungeon play that casters of D&D know well. The dispels, debuffs, and roots, of it all. There's a growing number of issues that the warlock community has to work on in that area - something I am doing a class on ICly on Friday actually.

My point is... Warlock is fun to play, but the solo ability depends on pact + build around those spells/EB, and the experience of the player using said build. It is not as bad of an issue that I think some of you are making it out to be. Yeah the infi cast is nuts with some of the pact spell lists. But we don't have an Implosion-type spell in our pockets. Or Hell Ball. We don't have the best wards (our biggest weakness in PvP), the best dispelling spells, and we don't have the greatest AC.

Warlock is very balanced right now, because I've PvPed enough on mine, and watched other warlocks of different pacts to where I know it's weaknesses and strengths. And I can say: you trade a lot of needed abjuration skills, for infi cast of others.

[Dreams]

I'll tell you why I love warlock so much:

It's flexible. You can build it into many different types of characters, many different types of casters. You can focus on summoning things, you can focus on weird spell effects, curses, hexes, you can focus on specific spell combos. You can focus on the bonuses of particular pacts, or mix and match them. You can blast, you can hit with doom, you can do the melee hideous blow stuff. There's a LOT to try and it feels different every time you play one.

The variation is not just in builds mechanically, but thematic variation. The different pacts bring a huge amount of storytelling potential depending on what you're choosing. Some of these are so undefined in the setting (e.g. Fathomless/Star Pact) that they can represent legendary powers or lean into strange influences from unknowable or unknown things. They can be scholars, they can be heroes or villains, the motivations of the characters and the way they decide on whether/how they choose pacts or what they do with them are almost endless.

It's balanced. Mechanically there could be marginal differences up or down that adjust it, but it's been considered as a whole. Whilst you're somewhat limited to going almost all the way as a warlock to get the most out of it, that's where it has been best balanced around. Other classes don't really have this luxury of being built from the ground up entirely. Usually they need to adjust based on what is already there.

^ For those reasons, the warlock fulfills the biggest part of the server for me: IT'S FUN TO PLAY!

Other casters kind of fall short in these areas. There's still huge variation, but to get the most out of them you're kind of limited to specific options. I think Kalopsia just did such a good job with warlock that other casters don't compare in terms of how much fun they are to play.

[Kirby]

Like my summonlock's pocket wm that is WoF immune and have almost 60 ac, 50 ab and 10-20/x3? If you trying to chase me I will kite you while let my fiend hit you and if you choose to kill the summon sorry I use associate tool to kite you and blast you. It's so Balanced.

Statstics won't lie, if every classes are balanced there won't be much gap between class distribution. But look at how many plays sorcceer, plays invoker and how many plays warlock, there's are something wrong here.

[AstralUniverse]

So the new class spreadsheet comes out and it proves my guess, 68 warlock And it doesn't include deleted characters while warlock is one of the best classs for rolling for sacriface, so the number is definitely higher than 68.

It also doesnt include some existing characters either. I know that my character isnt on the list, and several other players said the same. So I wouldnt really put much stock into that list, but if we did, we could say that cleric is more op since there are 80 clerics there, by the logic of this thread.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

none of my recently played level 30 characters are in this sheet actually except for one