Throwables & Invisible Blade

[CptnCandyass]

Invisible Blade is currently a class not taken so very much. On the latest release on class distribution numbers, they only reach a 1.8% despite being a class that is supposed to heavily benefit players that use a rogue playstyle. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5956&p=339718#p339718

This is more so feedback on the class entirely rather than just throwables, but I will provide feedback on that first.

I don't really see a reason for Throwables to not count towards IB Bonuses. They are all Small or Tiny weapons, concealable due to that and, since they are all Slashing/Piercing weapon types, should realistically cause bleeding if you're struck by it. (The weapons I refer to specifically are Throwing Axes, Throwing Knives, Darts and Shuriken. Sling is an obvious exclusion since it doesn't share that weapon type.) This would open up IB's, especially Small/Tiny size players, to having a wider variety of weapons they can resort to depending on the scenario instead of only 1 weapon all the time.

You might ask, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of Crippling Throw? Yes! Yes it would. Crippling Throw is BAD. Another ability that requires you to spend a full turn just for the hope that it lands, and 99% of the time it will not because it's DC is very low. for an ability that only applies a 50% slow and 2 bleed stacks. It would be much faster to throw out a Grease/Entangle/Web from a wand/scroll because they do not require a save for the slow and take the same or less time, and throw a couple daggers (if it were possible, that is) to get a couple bleed stacks in, or run for Hide cover while they're slowed and sneak in a couple hits for those stacks.

Invisible Blade is also pretty difficult as a class to get into. Arcane Bleed is difficult to pull off without spending an entire turn doing it. It's rather inferior to purchasing a bunch of Greater Spell Breach scrolls/wands(wands found through loot matrix) for cheap and having the freedom to use those at range in the same length of time that Arcane Bleed requires from you, without the requirement to land a hit, without being in melee range and without a 3 minute timer. This ability is supposed to be something that lures you into wanting to play Invisible Blade, not make you think you could go without it if you spend a little extra coin. I feel like turning Arcane Bleed into an instant action, shared with all the other Instant Action's like Eviscerate is, would make it more appealing to have. It's the only ability in this class, out of all five levels, to be attractive along with the Bleed stacks. It should function far better than any scrolls or wands.

The class only has 5 levels for a reason, and those 5 levels should be vital when it comes to figuring it into your build, since you could instead take something like Loremaster, which gives you a HUGE array of things to choose from in only 5 levels for slightly less AB (Avoided by taking Weapon Trick, which as a Rogue, you should.) in exchange for FOUR SECRET KNOWLEDGE FEATS and 5 SCROLL AND WAND MASTERY FEATS, that give you a chance to NOT use those scrolls and wands that you're using INSTEAD of Arcane Bleed and Crippling Throw. Right now there is very little reason to pick the IB dip over something like Loremaster.

[AstralUniverse]

IB is a legitimate (even if not as optimal as Fighter, I guess?) 5 lvl dip on Rogue. It gives you at least 2 things loremaster does not, which are BAB for 4th apr, and Discipline. It also means you are perma-speed. I cannot yet think of much else to do with this class outside of that, and I also agree about how bad Arcane Bleed and Crippling Throw are.

[CptnCandyass]

IB is a legitimate (even if not as optimal as Fighter, I guess?) 5 lvl dip on Rogue. It gives you at least 2 things loremaster does not, which are BAB for 4th apr, and Discipline. It also means you are perma-speed. I cannot yet think of much else to do with this class outside of that, and I also agree about how bad Arcane Bleed and Crippling Throw are.

If I really want that 4th apr (which, let's be honest, I do.) I would prefer to go Vigilante instead. My sneak attack will continue to stack by taking Vigi and will give me a ton of rogue special feats for free. I'm not entirely sure how many rogue levels I'd need to take to maintain a perma or near perma haste, but I'm sure its doable without taking IB. Vigi also gives discipline.

[Dreams]

I think the Invis Blade abilities (barring Eviscerate) should be instant actions. The whole theme is being so quick with a blade that it is unseen. Spending a whole round to throw a knife that hits the most commonly pumped saving throw sucks. Even eviscerate isn’t really worth it because in the time it takes to use it, someone else can use a healing kit twice which not only stops the bleed stacks but it nullifies the damage output of the eviscerate ability.

Arcane Bleed is the only reason I’d consider the class beyond the thematic of bleeding things to death.

[AlonelyBard]

I personally don't see much point in the IB abilities, even eviscerate. I have never really been in a position where it'd be better to lose all my attacks for a simple 50ish damage.
I'd agree with the above to make stuff like arcane bleed instant actions, but I'd also say that it might do well with an additional capstone option, in place of eviscerate.
For instance specific rogue feats that would still fit the ib theme would be a nice change, like opportunist, skirmish tactics, or gruesome method. Skirmish tactics especially, as dirty fighting is a requirement for ib now.

[Darkstorn42]

Having an IB character I can say the class is bad. It takes up one of your 3 choices and only provides 3 good things. Good BAB, Bleed Stacks, and Disc access. This is very bad compared to many other choices. But I do love the theme of the class.

The above have already discussed how arcane bleed and crippling throw are bad, but failed to mention how bad eviscerate is. Eviscerate is 'literally' 5 damage. It sets your Instant CD to 10 seconds (Dirty Fighting would only do 9 with Skirm Manuever). At level 5 It removes 5 bleed stacks which would do 15 damage once per round. 5 bleed stacks are removed for 10d3 damage extra damage, which has an average of 20. The melee damage is removed from the next round and it can't sneak attack. Even if it crits, that is an additional 40 damage. Assuming a 15x2 crit (where every crit always confirms), this nets 11 damage, on average in the long run (10d3 + 0.3*(10d3) - 15). (These numbers are likely over estimated)

Now, let us do a similar examination of the class requirement, dirty fighting. This has a similar CD, has a non-SC save to allow for sneak attack damage. With a 25/5 build giving 13d6 sneak attack damage that adds 45.5, on average, per hit for at least 1 flurry. With no loss of anything else, that means a failed save nets 91 damage (Assuming a 2 attack flurry), no crit potential. So, with 25% chance of save failure, which seems a bit low if you pay attention, that is 23 damage in the long run, but the burst threat is much greater than eviscerates. (13d6 * 2 * 0.25) (These numbers are likely under estimated)

These are all long term per round averages (kind of), but essentially the only reason to ever eviscerate is on an enemy immune to dirty fighting and not bleed damage, which as far as I have noticed is only vermin and aberrations, and will essentially net you 5 extra damage. IB needs some tweaks, IMO, but mainly to its special attacks. I like the idea of making them all instant attacks. Eviscerate either needs more damage, to apply bleed vulnerability, or to be removed entirely and replaced with Skirm and Improved Skirm manuevers. It just stinks and is made useless by requiring dirty fighting.

[CptnCandyass]

Having an IB character I can say the class is bad. It takes up one of your 3 choices and only provides 3 good things. Good BAB, Bleed Stacks, and Disc access. This is very bad compared to many other choices. But I do love the theme of the class.

The above have already discussed how arcane bleed and crippling throw are bad, but failed to mention how bad eviscerate is. Eviscerate is 'literally' 5 damage. It sets your Instant CD to 10 seconds (Dirty Fighting would only do 9 with Skirm Manuever). At level 5 It removes 5 bleed stacks which would do 15 damage once per round. 5 bleed stacks are removed for 10d3 damage extra damage, which has an average of 20. The melee damage is removed from the next round and it can't sneak attack. Even if it crits, that is an additional 40 damage. Assuming a 15x2 crit (where every crit always confirms), this nets 11 damage, on average in the long run (10d3 + 0.3*(10d3) - 15). (These numbers are likely over estimated)

Now, let us do a similar examination of the class requirement, dirty fighting. This has a similar CD, has a non-SC save to allow for sneak attack damage. With a 25/5 build giving 13d6 sneak attack damage that adds 45.5, on average, per hit for at least 1 flurry. With no loss of anything else, that means a failed save nets 91 damage (Assuming a 2 attack flurry), no crit potential. So, with 25% chance of save failure, which seems a bit low if you pay attention, that is 23 damage in the long run, but the burst threat is much greater than eviscerates. (13d6 * 2 * 0.25) (These numbers are likely under estimated)

These are all long term per round averages (kind of), but essentially the only reason to ever eviscerate is on an enemy immune to dirty fighting and not bleed damage, which as far as I have noticed is only vermin and aberrations, and will essentially net you 5 extra damage. IB needs some tweaks, IMO, but mainly to its special attacks. I like the idea of making them all instant attacks. Eviscerate either needs more damage, to apply bleed vulnerability, or to be removed entirely and replaced with Skirm and Improved Skirm manuevers. It just stinks and is made useless by requiring dirty fighting.

I intentionally didn't cover Eviscerate because of how terrible it is and I really, really didn't want to get into the numbers. Thank you for going over it.

IMO Eviscerate could serve a different function other than removing the bleed stacks that you had on the enemy. The word "eviscerate" means to "take out the entrails of." Why would that lessen their bleeding?

The bleed stack is improved over the next few levels of IB (levels 4 and 5) and that's all you get out of those levels unless you're dying for that BAB. There should be more oomph to taking level 5 IB, and I think an "Improved Eviscerate" fits the bill for that. Keep your bleeding stacks, instant action with a chance to hit like Dirty Fighting that does the same damage as listed on normal Eviscerate....Except it's an instant action!! Maybe I'm going a little crazy with saying "MAKE IT ALL INSTANT ACTION!!" here, but the only other option would be to inflate it's damage enough to make that full turn worth expending on a class ability that may or may not land, and IB isn't about "How quickly can we kill them" it's "How much can we make them bleed." We have too many classes that shoot for outright burst right now anyways, it would be a breathe of fresh air to be able to play a character that runs in and out of the fight performing these bleed stacks and instant actions.

I'm not saying eviscerate shouldnt get a damage boost, though. It's awful. Please still increase that somewhat.

[Eyeliner]

IIRC it had a little more use when eviscerate worked on everything not just creatures that bleed. It gave rogue/IB a means of dealing damage against undead, constructs and all the other things you can't sneak attack. I know that's tough to justify with the theme of bleeding and entrails but practically speaking it could justify taking those levels.