Dis & Shadowvar "Safe Zones"

[Mythic]

The Shadowvar Trade Post and Dis Coneupus have been getting used as "PvP Safe Zones"

People Lense / TP / Attunement to there, to avoid Consequence and PvP, as when you follow the NPC's in the Trade post attack those who initiate PvP.

With a great deal of the ongoing "Settlements are not safe zones" nor other Area's from PvP. This surprises me that these area's are allowed to be used as outright "Come here to be safe from PvP" which is following you.

My Feedback is this

Instead of immedietly attacking the players that initiate PvP. It should be that you are added to a List, and once a week/two weeks or month, it is looked at by a DM, and a Shadowvar person is sent to investigate why the PvP happened there. And if given the reasoning, allowed/un-allowed, assassins can be spawned, or a fine, or barring from the tradepost.

The same should go for DIS. As many also use it as a neutral / "Safe zone"

[Darkstorn42]

First, I think you should read the rules of Dis more closely. There are ways to PvP the without upsetting the devils. Second, that is exactly what shadovar is for. If you are quick with the PvP there you can be in and out real quick.

Nothing stops you from PvPing in these places, but doing so has consequences.

[Xarge VI]

I don't really see what's the problem with having a couple of places that make PvPing someone more difficult. It's not like someone who escapes consequences there is able to live a full life.

[Kythana]

Second, that is exactly what shadovar is for. If you are quick with the PvP there you can be in and out real quick.

To be clear, this isn't true.

From the rules:

These areas have expectations of character neutrality. This isn’t mechanically enforced. However, if your character is disruptive in these areas there may be special in game consequences for it. You should be scared of them. It won’t be fair. This includes picking pockets as well, not just combat.

The DMs can and have gone through logs of Shadovar PvP and force deleted people for doing it there. It generally has created a culture of apprehension about doing it at all.

Regardless of the intent of these areas, all I can say is that is has created some silly scenarios where PvP groups will consistently bushwack and attack others all day, and then retreat to a neutral area until the heat dies down.

[Choofed]

The DMs can and will act on you if you lens into the shadovar trade post to flee combat. How do I know this?

I was involved in one and butchered someone in the trade post on the portal.

Let me give you the detailss:
I was chasing down a dude I was trying to arrest on a character, he lenses on the spot and I just mulligan guess since he's near death he's just lensed straight to the Shadovar trade post. Well guess what, he's there?

So yeah I just finish him off right there and then, 2 hits, he's dead.

Week later, a shadovar trade post administrator force teleports me straight into a room. Does a interview of why my character at the time did that and he explains that the character who ran from his troubles broke their rules. He even quotes their rules to them. Their rules are as follows on this topic:

You may otherwise enjoy our hospitality as hosts but you will understand this is a place of business with many facets. Your problems will not follow you here and you will not escape them here either.

Those who violate our sovereignty shall find themselves faced with penalties. What these penalties shall be will be reserved for their severity and shall be trusted to my subordinates.

((OOC: This was placed by DM Janitor. Feel free to reach out to the team with questions or needs for clarity.))

They're listed on a fixture in the trade post by a sign. So with this in mind, they said to my character "You have to pay 200k for killing him and next time let us know and we'll exterminate them outright instead."

So yeah, Shadovar Trade Post ain't much of a save zone. If they run there to evade trouble, the Shadovar will punish their character severely as long as you report their abuse of the hospitality of them. As for Dis?

Well the devil's in the details. The only place violence is banned is on the concourse, but any of the buildings it's pretty legit according to the percise wording.

[Darkstorn42]

Well the devil's in the details. The only place violence is banned is on the concourse, but any of the buildings it's pretty legit according to the percise wording.

First, thank you for giving evidence to back up what I was saying earlier. You can PvP there, just expect IC consequences. If you abuse it, expect OOC consequences.

Second, read the Dis rules closer. Assassin targets are not safe in Dis. Someone hiding in Dis? Hire an assassin.

[Kythana]

The issue is that the 'IC consequences' are ambiguous.

It's at the discretion of DMs, which means result are going to vary. One DM might see your response as valid, and only give you a warning, while another might be more strict about it.

While I'm sure some people are willing to risk it, the attitude that I have generally seen ingame is that others are very worried their character will get force rolled if they pvp there. Maybe it's not true, but, why risk it?

When IC consequences can range between a high fine, and character deletion, there are many who will be afraid to do anything, thus leading to the perceived notion as a safe zone.

It would be nice to see more examples of the sort of PvP that is allowed in Shadovar/Dis, and what isn't, beyond what has already been mentioned.

[PowerWord Rage]

I've saw that forced rolled / deletion keeps getting repeated here but i don't believe it's true?

Mark of Despair
Mark of Despair is exactly the same as Dauntlessness, with one additional detail. The Mark of Despair offers no additional EXP per tick, but also does not allow the character to be rolled via the Epic Sacrifice system. This includes deleting the character at any point, or once the 10 lives are lost.

This is used by DMs as a punitive tool for players, typically for participation in mass wanton PvP with little narrative interest (somebody that is often starting PvP fights with little reason or provocation), or somebody that dies constantly and never RPs as being afraid or caring about death, or worse, that thinks itself immortal. Players may request a DM to give them this mark if desired.

Mark of Despair is not automatically handed out for any rule breach. A player that received a Mark of Despair as punitive action may petition to have it removed if their behavior improves.

Copied from Wiki.
I believe the above, should have been the punishment instead.

[DM Herald]

To make clear of each zone and the expectation associated with it:

Andunor Hub: PvP is allowed. So long as PvP is not regularly conducted and in such a way that it disrupts trade. If a goblin is getting mouthy with a matron, it is perfectly acceptable to practice "actions have consequences". If an individual is being repeatedly disruptive, or repeatedly seeking the Hub as a sanctuary after provoking other parties, send the DM team a report, and we will deal with it as necessary.

Shadovar Trade Post: PvP is not allowed. The Trade Post is meant as a safe location for characters to gather and conduct business without the threat of violence. The NPCs will hostile and turn against aggressors in the Trade Post. However, given that its NWN AI, this behavior is not always reliable. This is why when PvP action in the Shadovar Outpost is reported to the DM team, we will have the Shadovar reach out to the offending character and issue some sort of punishment. It would be too rough of an action to delete a character or impose a MoD for a first offence. So typically, a gold punishment or an XP/level punishment is issued, along with a firm out of character warning that PvP action in the Trade Post is not permitted and future actions of this nature would result in a MoD.

Dis: PvP will be met with a summons from the infernal court. Similar to the progression for the Shadovar Trade Post unless exceptional circumstances exist.

[Xerah]

Dis: PvP will be met with a summons from the infernal court.

I’m getting a strange urge to do pvp

[Dreams]

I feel like this ruling is just blurring the IC/OOC boundaries.

In Dis, the rules are IC. You expect there to be IC consequences for acting against them, not OOC punishments. There are IC loopholes too. A devil turns up and holds you accountable? That’s awesome, that progresses the story.

The Shadovar rules are also IC. However, why should the Shadovar Outpost have different OOC PVP rules to every other area on Arelith? Can’t DMs just have the NPCs follow up IC? If a player character is acting IC there should be no issue at all OOC with PvP there. It’s exactly the same as any other PvP in front of any other NPCs.

This whole thread is complaining about safe zones and you’ve basically said yes you are OOC protected at Shadovar. You’ve also confirmed you can just kill someone anyway and get away with it once.

[Zer]

I think there's two separate subjects.

First - general avaliablility of lenses, teleports and attunement potions. Almost everyone have them and carry enough for at least a couple jumps, often more. Its a high magic setting after.
However there's a hard counter to it — ESF Abjuration, teleport ward. Every single wizard have it readily availiable. As well as significant number of clerics, warlocks... Any caster with lvl9 spells have access to it, its one of the most popular QOL things on Arelith. You can also disrupt those escape attempts with other means if you know how.

Second - those places, Shadovar Post specifically (and Dis to a lesser extent as it was pointed out in a thread), serve their function well - its a safe space to conduct negotiations, trade and in general have meaningful converstations without disruptive behaviour of other parties and hostile elements.
It have nothing to do with supposed attemps to "avoid consequences". People knowing that those places are no longer safe will take that into account and just jump to a random destination point on one of 4 servers for example - or just use other places as their safe heavens. There's more than a few even without Dis and STP.

And ofcourse if your idea of "Consequence and PvP" is to rush to your opponents and immidietly attempt to killbash them from a blue stance after one-liner then you shouldnt be suprised people decline such exiting "roleplay" "experience".

[TheyTradedEngineersForCoffe]

I was chasing down a dude I was trying to arrest on a character, he lenses on the spot and I just mulligan guess since he's near death he's just lensed straight to the Shadovar trade post. Well guess what, he's there?

Tbh it's kind of meta when people guess that out of all the places on the planes, their target would lense exactly to that one trade post (or perhaps to Dis) and go check it in the first place.

Lensing out itself is kind of an event that finishes the encounter, regardless whether it's to "safe zone" or to Gith cave to try chances against Giths instead.

Maybe would be nice to have the rules updated on that topic, there is this line:

"If a fight happens and someone runs away, it's possible someone gets away and hides. If fighting stops for more than a minute and a half, vaguely, players must roleplay again before fighting. You can't find someone five minutes later and then attack them on sight."

It's vague in case of lensing out though, on one hand enough time may not have passed but on the other the original encounter is interrupted and if the players happen to guess (out of all the places where portals are on the planes) right the location of the battle is new and probably rather far away.
So is it okay to just continue fighting after catching up with your target on portal or you need to RP the encounter anew (which probably shouldn't be too difficult).

The other issue however, is that character knows that they stand no chance against a squad of killers, then it's only reasonable for them to lense out - otherwise they do not respect the death. Unless the spirit of the rule about respecting death is that you must entertain the other players by putting back a fight you know you can't win, but not flee and not just stand idle as they are killing you (because that is not fun).

PS: the last point is ofc about PVP that is not initiated directly by the fleeing party themselves, but the cases like "we don't like you, prepare to die" or when folks witness a squad of raiders coming towards their settlement and lense out to warn.

[Choofed]

Shadovar Trade Post: PvP is not allowed. The Trade Post is meant as a safe location for characters to gather and conduct business without the threat of violence. The NPCs will hostile and turn against aggressors in the Trade Post. However, given that its NWN AI, this behavior is not always reliable. This is why when PvP action in the Shadovar Outpost is reported to the DM team, we will have the Shadovar reach out to the offending character and issue some sort of punishment. It would be too rough of an action to delete a character or impose a MoD for a first offence. So typically, a gold punishment or an XP/level punishment is issued, along with a firm out of character warning that PvP action in the Trade Post is not permitted and future actions of this nature would result in a MoD.

Herald just to confirm here, based on the Shadovar's own wording - if people are fleeing to the trade post to avoid fights, aka " Your problems will not follow you here and you will not escape them here either" and you flag them for that the Shadovar will punish them too right? That policy is staying consistent?

These areas have expectations of character neutrality. This isn’t mechanically enforced. However, if your character is disruptive in these areas there may be special in game consequences for it. You should be scared of them. It won’t be fair. This includes picking pockets as well, not just combat.

There is no statement "No PVP allowed" in the rules here, if it is to be a entirely no PVP area you should switch the area setting entirely. As it stands it is a area of special in character consequence for a character to PVP, not a OOC rules violation to PVP there per the wording of the rule.

Could you clarify this? Is the rules page going to be changed?

[Arigard]

Tbh it's kind of meta when people guess that out of all the places on the planes, their target would lense exactly to that one trade post (or perhaps to Dis) and go check it in the first place.

The only way this could even be considered meta is if your character is so new to the world, they would have no idea that another character might go there/ i.e their character has zero knowledge of what the Shadowvar is/represents. If however, you are on a character that has been around the Shadowvar for a long time, seen multiple instances of it being used for prisoner RP/negotiation and as a place that other characters consider safe/or have seen this behaviour before, it is wholly a fair IC deducement that it could be a location someone might flee to. It is also fair to note that no player has meta information about where another player has portalled to within moments of them doing so - deduction does not equal meta.

Lenses are an IC tool, just like any other and people should be solving their IC problems IC & and if they are unable to, that's ok - it's part of the story of that character. If you find your character then finds itself in a bad situation, they should learn from it. Using a lens isn't automatically a get out of jail free card, nor should it be. There is literally no reason why a character can't pre-plan a safer extraction route that has little to no footfall, especially if they are venturing into dangerous places. It's tactical, it's sensible and it generates RP (Planning/organisation etc). There is a whole world to pick from. Running straight to an area simply because you as a player know there can be no consequence there seems to be very bad faith to me - because at that point the only reason there is not conflict is because of OOC Meta information. There will be instances where it is totally legitimate roleplay for a character to be more than willing to risk stern punishment to try to apprehend a long standing adversary, for example.

As for OOC enforced safe zones. I personally dislike them heavily and think they go against the spirit of what an RP world is supposed to be. By all means, punish people (And heavily if needed) through IC means and generate RP - I'm all for that, but there really needs to be an absolute ruling on this very clearly somewhere that tells players exactly what to expect - whether the punishment will be IC or OOC. If you aren't supposed to be able to PvP somewhere, enforce it mechanically in that area so players are under no illusions (And can then RP -why- they are unable to take such actions) - "A mysterious magic here stops me from raising my blade/casting my spells" - WYSIWYG

If instead, RP dictates, then make examples of people through RP, so that others know not to do so, unless they want such punishment.

From a purely RP standpoint, rules (I'm not talking about hard OOC rules, but setting rules/laws) exist to be broken and met with consequence. If they cannot be broken in any form without OOC reprisal, then the point of such rules existing IC become meaningless, they just become confusing & hint at the suggestion that they can be broken, at which point I don't understand the logic behind why you wouldn't enforce that mechanically.

[TheyTradedEngineersForCoffe]

So it is OOC meta to lense out to Shadovar for safety, but perfectly non-OOC non-meta for a character to deduce that their target, of all the places with portals, will most likely try exactly the Shadovar portal (the character is not dumb duh). I see.

[Choofed]

So it is OOC meta to lense out to Shadovar for safety, but perfectly non-OOC non-meta for a character to deduce that their target, of all the places with portals, will most likely try exactly the Shadovar portal (the character is not dumb duh). I see.

I think you've misunderstood. It makes perfect sense for a character to utalise the in character enforcement of peace the Shadovar enforce for their benefit. The issue is that the Shadovar do not like people doing this, as per their sign in their trade post.

It also makes perfect sense for people to deduce that's where they went, assuming they'd try and abuse the shadovar's peace.

[PowerWord Rage]

On a second thought...there're probably more than 30 locations that you can lense to and, you just happen to choose the only place that the other party know as well...that's just plain unlucky.

Honestly, i think that every single report of PVP in Shadovar is frowned upon though.
It's a Safe Zone meant for Trading between good and evil and that is pretty clear to every single player if you're even asked.
The mechanical enforcement is not to deter 1 vs 1 but to deter PVP when it's group meeting group during trade.

You teleport to Shadovar to escape PVP? It's with intention to do so.
You teleport to Shadovar to chase and kill for PVP? It's with intention to do so.
Is it really necessary? I can't even differentiate who is the victim here and the cry of safe zone issues.
C'mon, there're so many locations you can lense to and with all intent and purpose, you choose Shadovar because you intend to use the Safe zone or, to put it crudely, abuse it.