Events and Epic Characters

[IAmSwampFoot]

Today's event started simple: An abundance of Dire Badgers across the Dalelands, Level 5 plus characters would easily survive this influx of low level weirdness. Then came the Epics.

DMs saw fit to raise the stakes, raise the difficulty of the spawns and cater to the leaders of factions that have been epic longer than most lower level characters have been on the server. But why?

Keep it simple and the lower levels have a place in this story. Epics can direct them without the necessity of raising the spawn levels if they can just sit back and take in information.
Lower level characters can do the work and report back to these faction leaders and everyone is involved.

I lost interest as soon as I saw an influx of epic characters swarm to the area to fight these low level spawns that low level characters could have handled. The DMs saw the epics joining the fight and raised the spawn levels to add flavor. My character fell victim to a swarm of Displacer beasts he could not even get away from (they are a bit large and on a bridge you can't go around them). when the initial weirdness was badgers.

I don't blame the DMs. Something needed to change once the Epics got involved.

All this to say: Not every event needs direct involvement by the Epic Characters. Try to sit back, direct, let the new characters take the spotlight for one fleeting moment. Role Play a true leader and bark orders, heal wounds, suggest patrol routes and ask for updates. This will make the server a more inclusive place to play.

[Darkstorn42]

I entirely agree and it is often why when things happen I just sit back and watch without getting involved. That said, you should try Skal. It is a uniquely different experience that you might prefer more based off your statements.

[AstralUniverse]

The problem here is that the vast majority of characters existing at a current time is in epics. There should be no surprise that epics take over events. I'm not in favor of it and I dont do it but it's still something I expect to see because that's just statistics with very high probabilities.

The DM has the option to keep the content of the event entirely targeted at low level characters, sure, but all it really goes to accomplish is a thick hint towards the epic characters "You're not really needed here... ehem ehem...", and those epic characters have already failed to read the room once so chances are some of them will stay and the event becomes way too easy for everyone. On top of this, it's only a matter of time before you in fact have more epic characters than lowbies present, at which point the DM can understandably decide to shift the content into whatever fits more present characters and is more inclusive.

It's also hard to sell this whole premise to players when they're really doing what their character would have done, which is what's expected of them 99% of the time in a role play game. A lot of the time the low level character asks the epic to stay also. It's not always simple to read the room and leave even if you've read the room correctly.

Just try to be the change you want to see. Try to read the room and recognize who the event is targeted at. Chances are if you're in epics, it's not for you.

[Anomandaris]

When playing a hero it’s important to remember that sometimes for the sake of everyone else around you, you should in fact not be “THE” hero. The same goes for a villain.

Main character syndrome does not work well in a role-play server with hundreds of people.

DM activities are exciting and draw interest, which is great. But sometimes we need to know when to bow out and let other people take the lead in the story rather than sweeping in and “ saving the day.”

It sounds crazy to say but perhaps there is an in character way to steer players away from the event when it has reached critical mass or if disruptive to the storytelling agency of those already participating, or perhaps of a lower level? As with pen and paper sometimes a “nudge “ from the DM is needed to give the players a hint.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Is it possible for devs to make a tool so DMs can limit how much damage is done to enemies at all times, so encounters can be built and balanced around low levels? Something that can limit how many attacks per round count, that makes it so only X number of damage counts per hit, prevent spells from x level and up? The tool could also go the other way around and lower the damage done by an enemy or lower its AC to match the intended level, so an easy boss fight could be set up.

The tool could have a simple mode and a complex mode. In simple mode, you'd select the level you want the mob to be geared towards, and it would set the mob to have appropriate damage and restrictions for that level. So a mob set to be for level 5 encounters would cap at 2 APR and something like 10 damage per hit, and would cap magic at spell level 3 at CL 5.

Complex mode would allow full customization of all these values. Maybe a DM wants to make a boss fight that doesn't get 1-shot without giving it insane stats/ac/etc. They could go in and restrict how much damage can be done to it per round.

[-XXX-]

Level becomes irrelevant once the characters are presented with puzzles and dilemmas rather than combat.

[Darkstorn42]

Is it possible for devs to make a tool so DMs can limit how much damage is done to enemies at all times, so encounters can be built and balanced around low levels?

In a few convos I've had with DMs, I actually think they have something like this. Monsters that take and deal damage in a way irrelevant to level. I'm sure it's not perfect, but I believe it exists. That, or I've entirely misunderstood a few conversations. Could use a DM to confirm, though.

[Second Breakfast]

Level becomes irrelevant once the characters are presented with puzzles and dilemmas rather than combat.

This. More whodunits, more intrigue, more dialogue-driven events. If you need mobs for your events, just give the rank-and-file a whole bunch of CON and make them sponges.

[Scourge]

I also, sadly, think a lot of people are still under the impression RP rating is only gained from a DM watching you, so they force themselves into the event to 'try and get an rpr bump'. Even telling friends OOCly about the event. And then before you know it, there is your swarm of politicians and other weird characters ' suddenly ' in the woods.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I think some of the characterizations of the level 30s in this thread are a bit extreme. When you are a guard, or a city official, and you hear about a disturbance on the outskirts of your town, your instinct is to react to it. It makes sense both icly and oocly lol. The best way to have a level contained event (especially with a level range as vast as arelith's) is to catch a group out in the wild.

But here's the rub.

No dm is going to want to come up with an event for you to run through solo, so solo levelers are out. A group tends to tear through a dungeon in a tenth of the time it likely takes to set up an event and are already dividing loot and saying goodbye by the time a dm could be reasonably set up. So, if you want to do anything as a dm your best bet is to hit the settlements. Feel free to circle back to the first paragraph and run through it again.

[Marsi]

I think some of the characterizations of the level 30s in this thread are a bit extreme. When you are a guard, or a city official, and you hear about a disturbance on the outskirts of your town, your instinct is to react to it. It makes sense both icly and oocly lol. The best way to have a level contained event (especially with a level range as vast as arelith's) is to catch a group out in the wild.

But here's the rub.

No dm is going to want to come up with an event for you to run through solo, so solo levelers are out. A group tends to tear through a dungeon in a tenth of the time it likely takes to set up an event and are already dividing loot and saying goodbye by the time a dm could be reasonably set up. So, if you want to do anything as a dm your best bet is to hit the settlements. Feel free to circle back to the first paragraph and run through it again.

I found this very tricky when I last played a paladin.

A paladin has a duty to act. It's very hard to write your way out of a situation where someone is alerting you to something your character would never walk away from, but that you the player understand to be an overcrowded DM event.

Especially frustrating when one goes along with it, only to find that it, yet again, hinges on the actions of a select group of epics.

[DM Honey]

I think this is a really great discussion, and everyone has raised very interesting and level headed points which I appreciate as it's likely few of you have had the full DM experience on a server such as Arelith. I'm always hoping to improve when leading events, and it's good to see some of the things I wonder to myself about when running them expressed in this thread.

First things first, my number one rule when looking to do anything on the DM Client is to ensure that my plots or events NEVER (to the best of my abilities) interfere or interrupt PC/Player lead events.. If it's possible for me to sprinkle a little bit flavour into a PC organised event I will do so with as much restraint as possible because I believe ultimately PC events trump DM events 99 times out of 100. This chimes with the idea that sometimes an IG situation is improved when a PC that holds all the power shows some restraint and gives the situation and the other characters in it room to breathe. There's such a fine line between getting it "Right" and getting it "Wrong" for both PCs and DMs, and usually you only tend to realise that line has been crossed when something goes "Wrong". It's just the nature of Roleplay on a server like this.

Most DMs tend to approach their plots/events differently just like players tend to approach their characters differently. I personally tend to hold off on mass combat situations for some of the reasons voiced in this thread. Navigating dialogue, puzzles, situations, mysteries, etc gives PCs of all levels and builds (including commoners!) a much wider and calmer scope within which to interact with the world. But sometimes there just needs to be a big dumb combat resolution, and in order to make those interesting the difficulty needs to be cranked up to 11 in a world of super-epic builds that somehow still managed to destroy every roided out monster you can possibly churn out.

/To my knowledge/ there is no such tool that can act as the great equaliser to allow level 5s to fight alongside level 30s in such a way as this :

Is it possible for devs to make a tool so DMs can limit how much damage is done to enemies at all times, so encounters can be built and balanced around low levels?

If it is possible to make such a thing (I don't know the limits of the code) then I would be all for it, if only just to make up for my shortcomings in judging how hard a monster is to defeat compared to a PC. But yeah, I've never seen or heard of any tool like this in all my years DMing.

Just for a DMs perspective on running events like these there are some things to consider though:

1) Running interesting events requires you to be spinning A LOT of plates at one time. You are managing the DM Client, the PCs, their Players, the NPCs, emotes and skill checks, afflictions, placeables, etc, all at once. I have ran events where my grasp on the situation completely falls apart simply for not having enough hands or the brain capacity to cater to multiple players at once.

2) The more players involved, the harder an event is to manage. This plays in to why events involving mass gatherings of PCs should only reasonably be hack and slash adventures .. locking everyone in one map and throwing a load of enemies at a group is FAR more manageable then trying to run something more grounded. Even in smaller situations you might have PCs moving across transitions and stretching your focus across two separate maps (Meaning you miss half of the interactions going on)

3) If you think lag is bad on a server, then I guarantee you the lag is x10 worse on the DM Client. NPCs refuse to follow basic commands and bugs are far more likely to occur. Just last night on a semi-full surface I had an NPC for no apparent reason become unable to talk/emote through .. I needed to quickly remake this NPC on the fly to fix this problem. Think of DM events like a cross-stitch .. it might be pretty at the front, but it's a hellscape of tangles at the back.

4) This one is personal to me, but if I see a player taking part in an event that isn't trying to take the spotlight or is actively lifting up other PCs to give them moments - Then I love you, and I want to reward you in future. I think it was mentioned in this thread that DMs don't want to come up with events only for one PC .. at least for me, that is wrong. Some of my favourite moments DMing is when you come up with an idea for one PC to experience.

[The GrumpyCat]

I think some of the characterizations of the level 30s in this thread are a bit extreme. When you are a guard, or a city official, and you hear about a disturbance on the outskirts of your town, your instinct is to react to it. It makes sense both icly and oocly lol. The best way to have a level contained event (especially with a level range as vast as arelith's) is to catch a group out in the wild.

But here's the rub.

No dm is going to want to come up with an event for you to run through solo, so solo levelers are out. A group tends to tear through a dungeon in a tenth of the time it likely takes to set up an event and are already dividing loot and saying goodbye by the time a dm could be reasonably set up. So, if you want to do anything as a dm your best bet is to hit the settlements. Feel free to circle back to the first paragraph and run through it again.

This. So. Much. This.

There's probably more both players and as a DM I can do about the sitaution, I'm not denying. But laid out here (especially when you add Marsi's words about Paladins) is a good summery of why it can be hard to run low level Dm events.

EDIT: I didn't see Honey's post until after I'd put this up, but that's well worth a read too!

[Cuchilla]

There is a load screen message (forgot the exact words) telling players, that an event can be ruined when a lot of high levels "muscles in" (I believe those words are mentioned in the exact words).
It is basically up to players to use that advice: When you are high levelled, the question is not how to find the event, and "muscle in", but only do that if it comes natural in the situation. Or more precisely: In most situations, avoid the event.
It can be tempting to make your char present. But in the end, maybe it creates more fun (for others) if you stick away, and just afterwards listen to all the exited chars telling you what happened.

[Yensent]

I can understand the sentiments here, but if you go into a settlement and there is an enemy who has killed half the NPCs and is murdering PCs left and right, is helping then, "Muscling in?" I would hope not. I think, a good rule of thumb if you do get involved in a DM event, is to push others forward, and support newer and lower-level people when we can. It's never going to be perfect, but we can tell a good story if we stay mindful of each other.

[Kushion]

the loading screen messages are satirical remarks at best.

as for events, i think it'd be nice if people just used judgement based on the location. if the event is within cordor boundaries, we don't need an alliance of all the other surface settlements coming to fight the threat. same goes for events hosted in guldorand, and such. it'll always be difficult to enforce because people like being involved in things and happenings.