Lolth's Orthodoxy: A Guide

[In passion, patience]

Preface:

I've chosen to write this little guide in hopes of helping Arelith's drow community tackle the difficult RP that is Lolth's Orthodoxy. For long, the Frethian, Eilistraeean, Vhaeraunan, [...] faiths have remained a tad bit more popular than the Orthodoxy because of Lolth's traditional portfolios. It goes without saying that self-destructive insanity is quite difficult to echo in RP, especially given how tight Lolth's grip over the Drow people commonly is. How is it, then, that a Drow should reflect the insanity of their queen in a manner that's not only constructive in the Arelith sense, but also engaging to their surroundings? I believe that the key lies in the understanding and application of the following points:

1) Lolth's Hidden Portfolio:

According to the DnD Wiki, Lolth's portfolios amount to the following: Assassins, Chaos, Darkness, Drow, Evil, Spiders. While the majority seem rather easy to apply, the portfolio of Chaos strikes the Drow RPer as the most difficult to reflect in RP. Humans are by nature orderly, and this fact reflects amply in RP. It's no surprise that the Frethian Faith exists - the replacing of Chaos with Order, Law - something a lot more tangible and easier to understand.

Chaos, in of itself, is difficult to portray because there's nothing about it that makes sense. It is self-defeating, self-destructive, random, unpredictable. Chaos merely "is". Without delving too much into philosophy, throwing Chaos as a concept alone without grounding it in Drow culture and context is ultimately what makes it so difficult to RP. Lolth's Chaos, while a very literal reflection of her insanity and the insanity of the Abyss, is still rooted, grounded, by what I believe to be her hidden portfolio - that which binds it all together in a way that makes Sense.

Fear.

Fear is the hidden portfolio, and when you begin observing Lolth as primarily a Goddess of Fear, everything about Lolthian society and faith begins falling into place. The Chaos becomes, in a way, "predictable" or "structured" because it's finally bound to a reasonable, understandable purpose or objective: the goal, to Lolth, and to her clergy, is ultimately to sow fear.

This is why the Drow are so devout to their Queen. Their devotion is about as genuine as a North Korean's sense of patriotism. They smile and wave at their leader as he passes by, they cheer for him, but the sight of the guns pointed towards them is cleverly kept off-camera. Theirs is little more than a play, a constant quest to appease a goddess ever ready to dish out punishments of extreme sadism and cruelty. The presence of a drider nest so close to Andunor, for example, is hardly a coincidence. It's a constant reminder, to the Drow, that this is one among many grim fates of those who dare to stray, or those who fail to appease.

By rooting your character's worldviews, behaviours, and philosophies in fear, you begin meshing together that self-destructive web of intrigue that binds Drow society so neatly. The Matron fears her daughters, and her daughters fear her back. The male fears the female, but the female likewise fears the male. The clergy fear Lolth and take it out on the believers. They enforce the faith brutally and persecute the heretics and apostates alike not out of zeal, but because they fear what Lolth would do to them if they refuse. The houses fear failure, and compete against one another in order to remain within their goddess' good graces. There's hardly any elegance in how matrons ascend and fall - it's merely an act of self-defence, wherein the daughters kill before they're killed, and the matrons likewise cull before they're culled. And in this mounting frustration that is a constant state of fear - a great fear of everyone and everything - the Drow looks upon the Elf with spite, jealousy, and frustration. Their hatred becomes a lot less about history and culture, and more animalistic, or primal. Why can the elves trust each other? Why can the elves trust their Seldarine? Why do they enjoy what they do, and why can we not partake? Why has Corellon punished us all for the sins of a minority among us? Why me? Why us? Why not them?

With little in the way of answers and the promise of suffering delivered in plenitude, the jealousy begins, over time, bubbling and boiling into the kind of hatred that has seen Cormanthyr fall or Myon, for a time, burn.

2) OOC Expectations

Drow-ma is a recurring complaint that's about as self-defeating as Lolth's inherent philosophy. Drow-ma, for the uninitiated, refers to the Drow's constant infighting, politicking and civil wars. It's a pejorative term that reflects how stressful and tiring can Drow political RP be. But the question here, is - what were your expectations, anyway?

We are all fortunate enough to RP in Arelith, whose rulebook and DM team give us equal chances in victory and defeat. A good RPer will grow as much in defeat as in victory. While OOC attachment to one's character is sometimes (and unfortunately) inevitable, the mindset, while playing Drow, should be one of detachment and acceptance. You are not your Drow, and what your Drow will commit, or fall victim to, is in no way shape or form reflective of you as an individual.

Still, there are many positions that a Drow can adopt within their culture that does not necessarily expose them to Drow-ma, and those can be pursued with great degrees of success.

It's ultimately important to remember that every single Arelith PC is a human behind a screen, much like you are.

3) The Temple

Also known as the graveyard of Houses and clergy alike. Exceedingly difficult to run and maintain. But why?

Simply put: The Temple is not merely a ground to flex one's dialectics in. It's not merely a place for sermons or sacrifice. The Temple is Lolth's eyes, hands and voice. It is the centrepiece of Drow culture and not merely a detached equivalent of Sunday Mass/Church. With this in mind, the Temple should be the place from which Drow culture emanates, rather than converges! Think arena fights, art contests, banquets, galas, parties of song and dance, litanies, hymns, liturgies, and sermons and sacrifices. The Temple of Lolth is the Devil's Table's true district house, and once its clergy begin adopting this strictly theocratic mindset, and thus enforce their position as one much more akin to the Vatican of Andunor, the Temple will thrive and so will the Orthodoxy.

--

There's a lot more to bring up that I've left out. Please feel free to make your contributions to this guide, and thank you for your time!

[Agent51950]

Fear leading to strict adherence.

This is a fascinating way of describing the topic. Playing a Drow Male, one of the earliest events (several RL years ago now) that I can remember my character was commanded into the temple and used in a ritual. [Splendid event to watch and be apart of as a player.] Short time after this event the Drow House I was apart of fell apart and I took a long RL leave from NWN.

Instead of developing this event into fear leading to strict adherence, perhaps mistakenly, I developed it into fear leading to devout avoidance of the temple and anything potentially adjacent. To this day- my character, unless in a place of power (home terrain or with a "trusted" group), will avoid (or at least not linger) in public areas around Drow females.

Fear leading to strict adherence. Thank you for this, I will consider it in future character(s) (current one is too invested to change )

[Edens_Fall]

"This is why the Drow are so devout to their Queen. Their devotion is about as genuine as a North Korean's sense of patriotism."

I so love this sentence!

I have played a drow three times in my time on Arelith with various degrees of enjoyment. The only one I fondly recall was being a mere common foot soldier for a House, able to avoid the politics and merely focus on a role. Every other time it just burned me out.

Still I love your take on the idea, offering an understandable approach. When before I thought only through Freth faith did the drow ever have a chance of not imploding, now I can see another path if done well.

[Zer]

Stressful and tiring drow rp is something most players self-inflict on themselves willingly and people who actualy do that politicing had and still have options to conduct it in a different, less stressful maner for themselves and others. They chose not to do that.

[TheyTradedEngineersForCoffe]

Stressful and tiring drow rp is something most players self-inflict on themselves willingly and people who actualy do that politicing had and still have options to conduct it in a different, less stressful maner for themselves and others. They chose not to do that.

Kind of awkward and redundant to add after this,

but "It goes without saying that self-destructive insanity is quite difficult to echo in RP" implies that people might be finding Gygax's drow "chaos woman mad and bad" RP problematic, while people may actually be not having any issues with it and are rather seeking it.

After all, speaking of FR drow, looking up the most well researched and charted drow society, which happens to be orthodox Lolthite society of Menzoberranzan reveals that it is less of chaotic "mad women kill each other all the time" free for all as it seems to be perceived on Arelith, but is extremely strict and oppressed, which is only compensated by the hipocrisy of yet another set of unwritten rules and customs that allow to work around those written (under great risk though, as should one fail their move - the laws are applied to them in all harshness) as explained literally in the beginning of Homeland.

There already had been an IG book that attempted to explain the diversity and dangers of Andunor for the drow, that it's not even a drow city and generally convey "be nice playing an evil drow" principle ICly to the drow players.

[Royal Blood]

The original post and guide makes a lot of sense I think as do some of the commentors posts. I think maybe the biggest topic is like the 'self-destructive insanity' and I lowkey dislike the "Quip" an official lore author makes from a wiki that advises that Lolthite society is not sustainable. I dislike it because I think it puts in the brains of a drow player in the mindset that a 'properly' roleplayed Drow like just isn't possible if that's the right way to say it.

Just some like bullet point comments:

1: I enjoy the Frethian branch in Arelith, i'd even say it ought to be cannon like in official lore. The infringement of a specifically law-ful abiding sect makes so much sense. Additionally, I think the Frethian can easily take on the mindset that was mentioned like "Lolth is actively trying to kill me."

But in their perspective, they don't blame Lolth for that, they blame the Abyss and articulate it as her prison, they are still extremely devoute Lolthites but instead of pretending Lolth 'wanted' to be banished into the abyss they acknowledge it is their mission to liberate her.

There's also the lowkey vibe with the Freth though: Is it even genuine? Or is it just a rouse created by devils? Who knows!

2: I think via the curse the Drow and Lolth are like bound together. So, the lore around Lolth makes a lot of sense in that like both the people and the goddess are 'trapped' ultimately. And the fate of the Ilythirii is tied to Lolth's faith. And someday when that tether isn't forced, the question for the Ilythirii to answer is like: Why be a Lolthite.

IMO the only reason to be a Lolthite is because it's the god most favorable to your race even if qualities of it are self-destructive. And because there's this mutual "We got banished together" literally bound together. You can deviate into other faiths and plenty do, but I think there is a compulsion to be with Lolth because of that like history.

3: Regarding like IC politics but also OOC player habits as drow I think like specifically in the context of house politics, and expression of drow "power" you need to think about like:

1: There are a lot of ways to express "Power". Sometimes, I feel like the PVP element becomes -too- central to the roleplay of drow houses. It becomes an easy conflict resolver, but I think it ultimately squashes alternative roleplay because it begins to feel oppressive.

Not to say don't pvp, just be mindful of how often it becomes the thing that 'resolves' conflict.

2: GET COMFORTABLE knowing other people are plotting. I've Play/played Faeris for like 2 IRL years. If Faeris killed or attacked every drow or other race who plotted to kill her, or plotted against her, she would have never stopped killing.

It is totally fine to just be aware of plots and not need to confront it directly. Maybe it's a good reason to hire spies, or gain influence in a certain faction to learn more, etc. There are a lot of other paths to take. Sometimes it's just about knowing, and just like letting it go unanswered until a 'proper' moment arises.

But like in the context of a Drow this is -normal-. Managing that on an OOC level too is good and just allow things to breathe.

3: Most players do this well, IC you're evil etc but OOC you keep your other players in mind. As much as you put yourself into your characters shoes you also consider the position of fellow players and just keep a good vibe going overall. I think this just looks like maybe in conflict RP. While it may be the most IC thing to seek total annihilation of an enemy is that -really- practical OOC? Is that really constructive narratively? Not usually.

Just like the normal Arelith rule, be nice!

Those are my thoughts after reading the post. I think the Lolthite faith offers an immense amount of depth that goes far beyond what the wikipages say. You can tie this into IC roleplay so well. I personally have had so, so much fun starting out with a character that had a more traditional Lolthite view and just letting IC happenings influence her.

[The Vandals of Rome]

i like the fear stuff but take care with the idea of a "Lolth Orthodoxy"

it's sort of a problem of relying on the wiki but every God's religious practices vary between regions, nations, even between towns

church =/= god =/= priest

observation of the God's portfolio in some form is the common element but the specifics aren't, like, reviewed personally by God

there's many many branches of churches of of every god that are outright hostile to each other over doctrinal difference

lolth is extra in this way because she's constantly changing the rules. there's houses in menzo dedicated to endless innovation in lolthite rites and practices to try to retain lolth's favour. she's fickle and anyone who tries to pin her doctrine down quickly falls out of favour. the idea that there's an orthodox way to worship lolth is itself something lolth doesn't favour. not that it should stop you as a player. see C=/= G =/= P. have fun with it. get creative. if someone is telling you there's one canon way to do it then they definitely haven't read the canon. when you start reading about actual living settlements in the setting you can very quickly see how religion fits in.

it should also be understood that

you know in Menzoberranzan the matrons aren't feared because they're priests of lolth. it doesn't inherently make them powerful.

they're feared because they have houses with hundreds, even thousands, of soldiers. they're the Freth or the Claddath of their cities. the powerful houses have the powerful priests. there are no priests that are independently powerful in lolthite society. importantly, while the favour of lolth is important, it's really a chicken or the egg situation. does lolth favour them because they're winners? or are they winners because lolth favours them? who knows. lolth is definitely quick to abandon losers.

i notice lolthites are often portrayed like they're matrons of big houses when they're in charge of like 5 guys with cav swords. or they're a loner with cleric levels. a lone priestess of lolth doesn't have clout by virtue of being a priestess. some drow might think for a minute before killing them if it suits their interests. but only for a minute. in character you're little fish in a big ecosystem, and drow aren't stupid. they form big functional societies with bakers, and perfume makers, and hucksters selling love potions. they're closer to theocratic human societies than a casual wiki browse would make you think. an uptight drow that can only xas and rivvil isn't typical of drow in general. they're just evil guys making their way in the world. try to scope your concept to fit what you're portraying, is my advice.

the last thing to keep in mind is that lolth is relatively weak power. i like the fear thing and it's well reflected in many lolth dominated societies because lolth is like all tyrants; she knows her position is tenuous and she rellies on fear and division to stay on top herself. vhaeraun's cults are common in lolth "dominated" societies because he's always turning up personally to chat up lolthite priestesses about how cool it would be to conquer the surface.

[La Villa Strangiato]

i like the fear stuff but take care with the idea of a "Lolth Orthodoxy"

it's sort of a problem of relying on the wiki but every God's religious practices vary between regions, nations, even between towns

church =/= god =/= priest

[...]

it should also be understood that

you know in Menzoberranzan the matrons aren't feared because they're priests of lolth. it doesn't inherently make them powerful.

they're feared because they have houses with hundreds, even thousands, of soldiers. they're the Freth or the Claddath of their cities. the powerful houses have the powerful priests. there are no priests that are independently powerful in lolthite society. importantly, while the favour of lolth is important, it's really a chicken or the egg situation. does lolth favour them because they're winners? or are they winners because lolth favours them? who knows. lolth is definitely quick to abandon losers.

i notice lolthites are often portrayed like they're matrons of big houses when they're in charge of like 5 guys with cav swords. or they're a loner with cleric levels. a lone priestess of lolth doesn't have clout by virtue of being a priestess. some drow might think for a minute before killing them if it suits their interests. but only for a minute.

All of this and more, basically.

I appreciate there being an attempt to make sense of "traditional" Lolthism, neutral/chaotic evil, spiders, etc. I like the expansion on the philosophy of fear and how it is used in drociety (drow society).

But here is where I get into more of the meta aspects of drow roleplay. When you roleplay a traditional Lolthite, you are basically trying to be an evil NPC. Drow stuff in its purest 1e D&D form is "how can we create humanoid enemies for a player to kill without having to answer moral questions?" It's not really tenable within the wider context of Arelith. "We're gonna burn the elf city to the ground in the name of the Spider Queen!" Sure.

For me, I find self-destructive spirals of insanity to get depressing and unfun really quickly. I remember the first time I read the forum post about the Freth faith lore, and it immediately hit me; wow, this is basically "what if Lolthism was made possible on an RP server?" Doctrines that encourage the average drow player to hang out with the "lesser races", to not overstep your circle of influence, to plot, scheme, and gather every scrap of information available to you (also known as "roleplaying"). It's kind of genius, not just for its simplicity but also for what it inspired in the playerbase at large. I don't see a ton of explicitly Freth-y drow or Freth themselves, but what I did start seeing was a lot of drow with cornugon summons. When you operate in a city like Andunor and in an RP setting, interpreting the harsh strictures of Lolth's "doctrine" (that's the secret, she has no doctrine) as Lawful Evil just makes more sense and garners more long-term roleplay.

I almost hate to have to say this in a thread about "here is how to play traditional Lolth-worshipping drow", but it's something I wouldn't recommend any new player doing. It's something you have to have a really solid planned arc for if you want to drive roleplay, and you have a good understanding of what you can and can't change.

My final thought: Doing more stuff with the Temple at the centre is a pretty good idea. The Temple is a little weirdly-shaped to have stuff like duels or fights, though. Maybe it could use a bit of a cleanup.

[Joe46]

I'm not one to write long posts (unless mechanics are concerned, LOL), but to me it seems Orthodox Lolthism and it's "problems" are indeed solved by aknowledging two facts

1. Lolth is hated and feared, not loved. Drow who love the Spider Queen are few and far between, most branches of Lolthism are NOT sane religions that can stay afloat in the long run

2. Lolthite Orthodoxy is an oxymorron. Lolth by her very nature allows many a interpretation of her faith, something I've learnt myself through IC means. Some are more benign than others, some may even skirt into CN territory (which is supported by Cleric Alignments). I merely encourage all to make your own interpretations. Praise Chaos!

[TheyTradedEngineersForCoffe]

The Temple of Lolth is the Devil's Table's true district house, and once its clergy begin adopting this strictly theocratic mindset, and thus enforce their position as one much more akin to the Vatican of Andunor

Interestingly, in the FR books™ (which are of course all about Menzoberranzan which just one city, but who cares drow = Menzoberranzan and vice versa)
the Temple isn't even a political actor - Lolthitism oppresses the society, penetrates all spheres of life, and yet each House has own priestesses (loyal to themselves and then to their House).

There is a seminary where they are trained according to a, more or less, single standard, but it in itself is just a sava board for the intrigues between Houses.

Matrons are priestesses, but they belong to their Houses and it's really the Commision Council of Matrons of most powerful Houses rules the city and the Houses also enforce Lolthitism, instead of single Pope there are many Matrons.

A fascist mafia state really, Lolthite Houses "mafia" are government, law, church, etc. I will of course not point to IRL examples which historically had and have somewhat similar relation between state and church as well as political system.

Lolth, however, sometimes sends Yochlols to explain to the Houses, that, of course are not short sighted, but rather too involved in their owns plots, what they should REALLY be doing, so a church as an institution perhaps is indeed redundant with such features.

But what I find fun about it, or at least peculiar,
that this does seem to contrast with Greyhawk's Erelhei-Cinlu, where the temple was apparently a political power of its own, as Matron Eilservs pretty much fought against it (converting to follow EEG) after it refused to crown her "matron of matrons". Though, of course it may also be argued that she fought that cold war against all the Lolthite houses.

[But Will It Blend]

I never play lolthite Drow primarily because most of what I've seen has been players trying to play game of thrones IRL. I've seen OOC cliques getting into hate fests against one another, and then when Drow fail at taking over places, rather than vanishing because they have been put down people just keep trying to do the same thing a billion times wanting a different result.

Enter stage right, killing people in the hub constantly, yet another PVP war with rules breaks and minimal actual RP, nothing gets resolved until yet another group gets mass banned, exit stage left, we'll see it again in 2 months. It's exhausting. And frankly tends to ruin the experience for anyone who has to exist in the same place as it constantly. I've rarely seen it done in any way that's compelling.