Chainbreaking and what comes next

[D4wN]

Here I am again, diving into another discussion on slavery. Before I begin, let me make it clear: this isn’t a debate about whether slavery should exist on Arelith. That conversation has happened more than enough times already, and there’s no need to rehash it here. What I do want to talk about, though, may still be seen as controversial and confrontational.

This thread is about Chainbreaking, and more importantly, what comes after. I've played a Chainbreaker for over 3+ real-life years, and in that time, I've had the privilege of encountering many powerful and meaningful slave liberation stories. More than half the characters I've interacted with in this role brought depth and genuine development.

However...

There have been far too many instances (and still happening even now) where characters go through the entire Chainbreaking process, only to return to Andunor. I’m extremely passionate about this issue, so if anything I say comes off strongly, please know it comes from that place of deep investment, not personal attack.

Let’s lay out a few simple truths:

1) Every Chainbreaking task is explicitly designed to fight against slavery.
2) Chainbreakers are, by definition, a rebel faction opposed to slavery and joining them means embracing that cause.

These two facts make you a traitor to Andunor, a city built on and sustained by slavery.

With that in mind, I strongly support the idea that there should be real consequences for those who betray the Chainbreaker cause. If a character chooses to complete these missions by sabotaging slavers and fighting for freedom only to turn around and rejoin the very system they fought against, that should mean something. That should have weight.

If your character wants to be free and remain in Andunor? Then buy your freedom. It’s that simple. Many stories flourish after chainbreaking. I have seen this many times and experienced it myself too. But if you don't feel you still have a story after chainbreaking, perhaps it's simply the end of your story and that's okay too or perhaps just consider paying the gold and earning your place in Andunor as an Outcast.

[Ruzuke]

Rules for thee and not for me is very common. Especially in an evil society.

If someone has the power and influence to remove their bonds of slavery. The slave master in both settlements which allow it appear not care. One or two escaped slaves out of all the others is a cost of doing business. Likely the same as slaves perishing from other causes.

Do the district leaders care if slaves escape? They do not get paid from the slave trade likely not a high priority. Does the Vizer get paid from the slave trade again the answer is no also not a hire priority. Have the money flow to the characters and the answer likely will change. Provide an incentive to actually care?

[D4wN]

Rules for thee and not for me is very common. Especially in an evil society.

If someone has the power and influence to remove their bonds of slavery. The slave master in both settlements which allow it appear not care. One or two escaped slaves out of all the others is a cost of doing business. Likely the same as slaves perishing from other causes.

Do the district leaders care if slaves escape? They do not get paid from the slave trade likely not a high priority. Does the Vizer get paid from the slave trade again the answer is no also not a hire priority. Have the money flow to the characters and the answer likely will change. Provide an incentive to actually care?

You're misunderstanding the point I was trying to make. The problem isn't with former slaves who buy their freedom and choose to remain in Andunor. The issue lies with those who actively oppose slavery by aligning with the Chainbreaker cause and completing tasks that actively fight against the slavery system, only to betray that cause the instant they're free by staying in Andunor and joining the very slavers they once fought against. I have even experienced some of these Chainbreakers becoming slavers themselves.

[The GrumpyCat]

Here's my thought

Step 1) Give Scar the ability to free slaves with a significant amount of gold. I suggest the same as the clamper - 2 mil.

Step 2) Maybe give the clamper/slave master a quest system too. Much more open than Scar's. I can see ideas like: 'Kill xxx amount of free slaves.' 'Hand in xxx prisoners (via lassoo system) to slave master. Ect. It's difficulty fairly comparable to Scar's options. But this is a 'maybe'. The opiton to buy yourself free remains open. And in both cases, you can only do this (Or complete the quest?) if you are not 'owned' by another pc,

Step 3) If you free yourself via the Clamper (via bribe or quest) your pc is branded on Outcast with all that that entails. (Note? Some issues with alignment might come up here. Possibly Good Aligned pcs would not be able to take this option, but would be encouraged to contact a DM to seek an alignment change, if that's possible.)
If you free yourself via the Freedom Quest/Freedom Donation, you get the tag 'Freed Slave.' A tag which can only be seen by citizens of the underdark settlments. It is generally encouraged that 'freed slaves' should not be living/lingering in Andunor, any more than any other surface based race.

[Dreams]

Take away all bonuses and roleplay it. Why should chainbreakers get some special punishment to delve onto traitors when slavemasters don't really have this for slaves who are going through the chainbreaking thing? Why make this system more convoluted when we've lost sight of the purpose in the first place? I'm not saying we should remove slavery and all of the systems. But if we did it wouldn't really change how you roleplay these things.

Players routinely abuse the slavery system (including the chainbreaking parts) to make non-outcast Andunor specific characters, getting portals and benefits of being unquestioned in the network of UD characters, only to later turn into whatever they originally wanted. It's easier to level in the UD than it is on the surface, everything is closer, dungeons make more sense, writs are more rewarding. That's not to say there's no roleplay involved.

I just think you could probably roleplay everything about slavery on the server without needing any of this, because it's as meaningful or meaningless as the players roleplaying make it seem.

[D4wN]

Here's my thought

Step 1) Give Scar the ability to free slaves with a significant amount of gold. I suggest the same as the clamper - 2 mil.

Step 3) Maybe give the clamper/slave master a quest system too. Much more open than Scar's. I can see ideas like: 'Kill xxx amount of free slaves.' 'Hand in xxx prisoners (via lassoo system) to slave master. Ect. It's difficulty fairly comparable to Scar's options. But this is a 'maybe'. The opiton to buy yourself free remains open. And in both cases, you can only do this (Or complete the quest?) if you are not 'owned' by another pc,

Step 4) If you free yourself via the Clamper (via bribe or quest) your pc is branded on Outcast with all that that entails. (Note? Some issues with alignment might come up here. Possibly Good Aligned pcs would not be able to take this option, but would be encouraged to contact a DM to seek an alignment change, if that's possible.)
If you free yourself via the Freedom Quest/Freedom Donation, you get the tag 'Freed Slave.' A tag which can only be seen by citizens of the underdark settlments. It is generally encouraged that 'freed slaves' should not be living/lingering in Andunor, any more than any other surface based race.

This would actually be really good and in line with some of the ideas I had in the past. Especially just paying the chainbreakers would be good.

Take away all bonuses and roleplay it. Why should chainbreakers get some special punishment to delve onto traitors when slavemasters don't really have this for slaves who are going through the chainbreaking thing? Why make this system more convoluted when we've lost sight of the purpose in the first place? I'm not saying we should remove slavery and all of the systems. But if we did it wouldn't really change how you roleplay these things.

Players routinely abuse the slavery system (including the chainbreaking parts) to make non-outcast Andunor specific characters, getting portals and benefits of being unquestioned in the network of UD characters, only to later turn into whatever they originally wanted. It's easier to level in the UD than it is on the surface, everything is closer, dungeons make more sense, writs are more rewarding. That's not to say there's no roleplay involved.

I just think you could probably roleplay everything about slavery on the server without needing any of this, because it's as meaningful or meaningless as the players roleplaying make it seem.

The reason 'why', is mentioned in my original post. I agree it is being massively abused. I agree that the system isn't what it should be. None of this is in dispute in this thread.

The reason why I bring this up specifically is largely setting integrity and respecting NPCs. Just like the clamper gives you all the warnings about consequences of taking the collar, the chainbreaker NPC in fact mentions consequences to betraying the chainbreakers and also mentions the need to keep it secret. Well, neither of these things are being respected/enforced (we have consequences for people attacking others in Dis or the SV Trade Post, but no consequences for betraying anti-slavers). And my whole point is in fact to have consequences for chainbreakers from slave masters. The opposite should also be true (and I also mentioned). If you are a slave who buys their freedom from the slave master and stay in Andunor, take an outcast token if the RP warrants it.

[Ping14]

Chainbreakers becoming slavers themselves.

Its a valid story point though. A slave who becomes a slaver, sounds like your cliche "Becoming what you hate" - and I would very much welcome this kind of roleplay. It shows the fallibility of morals vs revenge. Clamping the clampers.

Having an additional tag on the description: "Freed slave" doesn't necessarily hinder this kind of story to be written, if anything, it makes it difficult but not impossible. We have two settlements that have open slavery already (Andunor lumped to one, and Sibayad). Kinda cool to see a once slave clamp down the drow who enslaved him/her then parade it down Sibayad in broad daylight (No sunglasses for you drow! ).

[D4wN]

Its a valid story point though. A slave who becomes a slaver.

It is and I’m not disputing that. What I am challenging is the idea of someone joining the Chainbreaker cause, actively fighting against slavery, then immediately returning to Andunor after gaining their freedom and even becoming a slaver themselves, all the while still being a Chainbreaker. I truly want to differentiate here between people who joined the Chainbreaker cause to fight against slavery and those who bought their freedom and integrate with Andunor.

Even if you become a slaver as a Chainbreaker, it can be a valid story of betrayal or treason (which is totally fine from a narrative perspective), the issue is that there are no consequences. This kind of thing happens frequently, and yet the Chainbreakers as a faction seem completely indifferent to those they've helped escape who then turn around and associate with, or even become, slavers.

That lack of consequence isn't because it's a story-driven choice it’s because there’s no oversight from the team (which is totally reasonable), and no automatic systems (like NPC hostility) in place to reflect the betrayal. They just pretend like nothing every happened and they didn't just actively harm the Slave Master of Andunor.

If someone wants to play a traitor to the Chainbreakers, that’s a compelling story and absolutely fine. But that choice should come with some meaningful in-game consequences. Right now, it just doesn’t.

[Dreams]

There isn't any punishment on paladins who do bad things either. This is probably more something that could be looked at by DMs for setting enforcement than something we need a punishment system for.

[Darkstorn42]

There isn't any punishment on paladins who do bad things either. This is probably more something that could be looked at by DMs for setting enforcement than something we need a punishment system for.

This is an over simplification. I've known paladins that have gotten in trouble for regularly going against LG. Same happens to most PC that violate the setting often. They tend to get a MOD.

A one off thing, or your OOC perception of regular setting abuse, are very different that true abuse.

But this is entirely off topic. My point is, the DMs do the best they can and we can't expect them to do everything and be everywhere.

[Dreams]

My point is, the DMs do the best they can and we can't expect them to do everything and be everywhere.

I agree with you. That's why we shouldn't expect them to be doing more than they already do when it comes to very minor setting enforcement like a slave who got freed through chainbreaking deciding to do something different than what was promised. There's no need for a system to handle it, there's no real need for DMs to be on the lookout for it. It's entirely something that can be handled IC just like the rest of the system could be.

[Vespidae]

I've played two slaves who broke the chains, and I have this observation.

Andunor is a dark place of mystery, full of strange corners and populated with many different unusual creatures, big and large, mammalian, reptilian and several other sorts besides. It is a place of magical intrigue. The RP of being a slave escaping from there is intense and wonderful.

The problem is that when you escape, you end up in Cordor. Compared to Andunor, everyone in Cordor looks the same. Elves, Halflings and Humans all look... pretty much the same, and even with the many new heads available nowadays, there's a few looks that people gravitate towards.

Andunor has the Hub. I don't know if it's the same now but when I was last there, you couldn't get ejected from the Hub unless you were threatened into doing so or killed. Either way you couldn't actually be barred. You had to really annoy people to get banned from the city.

In Cordor, getting banned from the city is fairly trivial. I've seen people get added to the exile list just for acting in a way that one guard found annoying.

Andunor is a powerful, tyrannical slave city, but Cordor feels more oppressive with the mundanity of its law. At least, it did both times I escaped.

After my first character's escape, I attended a town hall meeting and after a disagreement it was suggested to me by at least one person that I was a spy, and by another that I should perhaps return to Andunor. One of those persons was a Harper.

After Andunor, the surface can feel at times unwelcoming and a little boring. The constant hostility of the Underdark provides something to roleplay against, which I think is a subtlety to the medium that many miss out on. I am very not surprised that people go back. Obviously, their character should want otherwise - but ultimately we the players want to have fun as our characters.

I don't know what the solution is. An unpatrolled, unexilable bit of the city? Sure you could go anywhere in the wilderness, but the wilderness is the wilderness. More non-humanoid races for the surface, to at least make it feel less like a monoculture? That might be nice. A more difficult slavebreaker quest that realistically takes you to the end of your character arc, so that your time on the surface serves as an epilogue rather than a weak last chapter? Probably overkill.

But for me anyway, the surface was the problem.

[TheDoctor]

I've played two slaves who broke the chains, and I have this observation.

Andunor is a dark place of mystery, full of strange corners and populated with many different unusual creatures, big and large, mammalian, reptilian and several other sorts besides. It is a place of magical intrigue. The RP of being a slave escaping from there is intense and wonderful.

The problem is that when you escape, you end up in Cordor. Compared to Andunor, everyone in Cordor looks the same. Elves, Halflings and Humans all look... pretty much the same, and even with the many new heads available nowadays, there's a few looks that people gravitate towards.

Andunor has the Hub. I don't know if it's the same now but when I was last there, you couldn't get ejected from the Hub unless you were threatened into doing so or killed. Either way you couldn't actually be barred. You had to really annoy people to get banned from the city.

In Cordor, getting banned from the city is fairly trivial. I've seen people get added to the exile list just for acting in a way that one guard found annoying.

Andunor is a powerful, tyrannical slave city, but Cordor feels more oppressive with the mundanity of its law. At least, it did both times I escaped.

After my first character's escape, I attended a town hall meeting and after a disagreement it was suggested to me by at least one person that I was a spy, and by another that I should perhaps return to Andunor. One of those persons was a Harper.

After Andunor, the surface can feel at times unwelcoming and a little boring. The constant hostility of the Underdark provides something to roleplay against, which I think is a subtlety to the medium that many miss out on. I am very not surprised that people go back. Obviously, their character should want otherwise - but ultimately we the players want to have fun as our characters.

I don't know what the solution is. An unpatrolled, unexilable bit of the city? Sure you could go anywhere in the wilderness, but the wilderness is the wilderness. More non-humanoid races for the surface, to at least make it feel less like a monoculture? That might be nice. A more difficult slavebreaker quest that realistically takes you to the end of your character arc, so that your time on the surface serves as an epilogue rather than a weak last chapter? Probably overkill.

But for me anyway, the surface was the problem.

Have you given other places a try rather than cordor? I know thats not very helpful, there really isnt much that /can/ help but I have seen in Guldorand multiple sides of this coin. Its gone both ways.. Ex-slaves being trusted and helped, and then also other ex-slaves not being trusted at all. From what I see on the outside looking in is (At least in Guldy) its done on a case by case basis.

TLDR

Cordor isnt the only place to go

[Vespidae]

Have you given other places a try rather than cordor? I know thats not very helpful, there really isnt much that /can/ help but I have seen in Guldorand multiple sides of this coin. Its gone both ways.. Ex-slaves being trusted and helped, and then also other ex-slaves not being trusted at all. From what I see on the outside looking in is (At least in Guldy) its done on a case by case basis.

TLDR

Cordor isnt the only place to go

After my first character, Guldorand was not yet open. After my second, it was open but there was very little scope for RP interaction there. I haven't played in a couple of years now, so I would be delighted to know that matters have improved since then, but at the time it was very much the case that for a human character, Cordor was the only real place to be certain of interaction.

I should point out that I don't have this problem when I start a character in Cordor (or elsewhere on the surface). In those instances, the island opens up like a flower - marvellous new sights for my character to explore. But for an escaped slave, the sensation is like... escaping from the Crystal Maze to find yourself in the Civil Service. The 'unwelcoming' bit isn't the worst bit. It's the mundanity.

My first escaped slave got around this by becoming Captain of the Cordor Guard, which was fun for a while but it was never the same pitch as the Underdark. My second actually did return to Andunor, mostly in disguise, to hang out with the people I'd RP'd with the most.

[Darkstorn42]

My point is, the DMs do the best they can and we can't expect them to do everything and be everywhere.

I agree with you. That's why we shouldn't expect them to be doing more than they already do when it comes to very minor setting enforcement like a slave who got freed through chainbreaking deciding to do something different than what was promised. There's no need for a system to handle it, there's no real need for DMs to be on the lookout for it. It's entirely something that can be handled IC just like the rest of the system could be.

Your argument confuses me.
1) We cannot expect the DMs to enforce this
I agree. That is where we agree

2) We don't need a system that causes this enforcement because there is no need for DM enforcement
I disagree. I believe the DMs should enforce the setting. Also the idea that there shouldn't be mechanical systems in place that alleviates the DMs setting enforcement is kind of a ridiculous argument. We both agree they can't be everywhere, so why not have systems that alleviate their work?

I love Grumpy's idea. The slave system is old, outdated, and often feels abused.

[The GrumpyCat]

Some of my personal philosophy, when it comes to how to enforce rules, is I think that there needs to be some questions asked:

These questions include:

How Frequent is the Rule Break?*
How Harmful is the Rule Break?
How Easy is the Rule Break to catch by the DM Team? How possible is it to reinforce?
What will we loose by mechanical enforcement of the Rule Break?

The last one of these to me is the most interesting. Because roleplay is rarely black-and-white and a lot of the time, for every 10 examples when something is done poorly, there's 1 example when it's done well. And especially if we put mechanical limitations in place, we DO stop that 1 example.

Lets try and break down this sitaution

How Frequent is this Situation? (Slaves going back to the underdark even after being freed?)
I honestly don't know. I don't have numbers on this, and I don't think the team has been hugely monitoring it. Maybe we should? I'd say it's not entirely uncommon, but it's not hugely common either.

How Harmful is this Situation?
Althought I agree that this isn't an ideal sitaution, I'd personally also argue that It's not neccesarly the a massive issue. It's frustrating to some and irritating, but I don't think that it's causing players to leave in droves, or creating a hugely imbalenced issue mechanically. Does that mean it's not worth adressing?... Not neccesarly. But if we're being honest I also dont' think it's The Worst Thing Ever.

How Easy is The Situation to catch by the DM Team? How possible to Reniforce?
Well, it's possible certainly, if we all keep a weather eye on things. But let's be honest, we arn't always that great at that, and it's not the sort of thing that easily shows up in a quick log search. If we have the team willing to be very attentive to it, we could catch it. But honestly we have a lot on our plate, so we have to be wary about adding more. This is hte sort of thing that we sould need people to report, which people have, and do.

What Will We Loose by Mechanical Enforcement of the Situation?
This sort of storyline is long and complex, and i think heavy reinforcement would be a mistake. Because it SHOULD be viable for slaves to remain in the underdark, after being freed. My main concern really, is that some people are using the mechanic as a way to 'get trust' in the UD, and get all the advantages of being an Outcast (portal access, Undercommon, friend connection) whilst avoiding the dreaded outcast 'Tag.' I feel this blurrs the lines too much, and I think some sort of mechanical reinforcement to prevent that isn't a bad idea.

That said, I also don't think ti's That Big a Deal. It isn't perfect, and it is deserving of a fix, but at the same time it's mostly a 'poor roleplay' situaiton that can mostly be ignored. Again- not advocating AGAINST my idea, but I also don't think it's the most urgent issue in the world.

• Rule break/setting break/poor rp ect. We'll say 'rule break' for ease, even though what we're talking about isn't strictly that.

I'll also note Re. Vespidae's points:
The thing about playing a slave is a) You often have something to do. b) You often have a neat, built in 'goal' of getting free. C) You have a lot of pcs often pushing for or against that goal, which can make a really neat, intence narrative.
The problem when playing that from the start though, is that you need a narrative or something AFTER that. This is an issue that's on the shoulders of not just the slave pc, (though a lot of it is!) but also on the person/people that work to free them.
So what you get is
Chainbreaker: GET FREE! YOU NEED TO GET FREE!
Slave: OK! Thanks to your help I'm free!
Chainbreaker: YAAAAY! I WIIIN I WIIIIN I WIIIIN I FREED A SLAVE I'M THE BEST YES YES YES YES! I WIIIIIIN!!!!
Ex-Slave: Yay! Ok uh, what do I do now? I've no direction in my life. I've left all the people I spent time with. I'm alone here and-'
Chainbreaker: Yeah, yeah, whatever. The point is I WIN! you do.. IDK, whatever. I don't care, I've got my win.
Ex-Slave: .... .... Well um. this is dull. I'm going back down.
Chainbreaker: WHAT? NOOOOOO!

Now to be clear I am absolutly NOT accusing anyone in this thread of the above AT ALL! A chunk of the responsiblity in the above is also on the first player to work out what they're going to DO upon becoming free. Most of the responsiblity even. But I do think a level of thought should be given by chainbreakers that this isn't always the end of the narrative.

[D4wN]

I just wanted to add that for those who don't feel like they will be entertained by the surface or can start again or will be bored, buying your freedom in Andunor is a viable option. And buying your freedom can be a great story of being accepted by their society as one of their own rather than a criminal who broke free after fighting against slavery.

And unfortunately, to answer GC's question.. It happens a lot. Which is why I raised this issue. If it was a once off or only happened rarely, it wouldn't really concern me.

While this is slightly off-topic, but since it was brought up I did want to also comment on Chainbreakers pressuring people into breaking free. Simply put, this is not okay. Their slave arc is their story, not yours. And you don't get to decide how quickly they tell this story. The same goes for people who get captured and want to experience prisoner RP. Let people experience these developments in their story at their own pace. I get everyone wants to be a hero, but the story isn't about you.