Undead Hunter

[msterswrdsmn]

So i've been tossing around the idea of making an undead hunter for years. Now that vampires are a thing....why not? I've got a few ideas, but nothing solid.

Paladin/Bard- STR as a primary stat, CHA as a secondary. Mostly paladin levels for UMD, bless weapon, death ward, etc. Decent number of bard levels for up to level 3 or level 4 bard spells.

Cleric/Paladin- Weird stat split with str/wis/cha. Focused mainly on buffing up and meleeing rather than spellcasting.

Ranger/Paladin/Rogue: Bane of Enemies and Bless Weapon with a few UMD tricks.

Paladin/Bard/AA: The only ranged concept I can think of.

Cleric/Paladin/Bard- Spellcasting with WIS/CHA.

Theres a reoccuring theme here. Basially

-STR based. DEX based against things that are crit and sneak immune=bad idea.
-Paladin. For rp reasons, and for easy access bless weapon. Decent undead turning is a plus, but not needed.

So. Thoughts?

Sidenote: are there any non-LG dieties that support paladins and undead hunting? Going with a generic Lathandar/Triad undead hunter seems too easy.

Sidenote: Does divine damage on bless weapon stack with the divine damage from a lesser moonblade?

[gilescorey]

Kelemvor's clergy are staunchly opposed to the Undead, and he is a Lawful Neutral deity.

I can't really give any scrutiny as to mechanics currently, but I will later in an edit.

[Rabbid]

Bryce Build comes to mind for potential Undead Hunter.

As far as deities there is Kelemvor definitely. In fact I'm inclined to say he's probably the obvious choice outside of the Triadists/Lathander

Lathander's a prick anyway. Take it from someone who played a Lathandarite FS.

[Opustus]

Fulfill my dirty, secret fantasy and make the ultimate Good Will Turner character:
Pure CHA smiter Pally27/Clerk3 of Lathander with Sun and Good domains. Sun adds to your Turn DC and Good allows you to turn outsiders; Aasimar beware! Arelith's special class Harper Priest gets a bonus to Turn DC, but I don't know how to unlock the class or if that is the direction you want your character to take. I understand that on Arelith you have to RP the harper class as such (eww).

A Kelemvorite can range from a Warhammer 40K Space Marina Inquisitor to a humble undertaker making sure that everyone gets their burial delivered and console the mourning. Or she can be both, or a vagabond tending to graveyards. I played a caster priest with Necromancy focus on another server, it was a hoot.

[One Two Three Five]

Aasimar and tiefling don't count as outsiders here, I think. Imps do though.

[Opustus]

Oh bum. And some of the bigger imps, like balors? Imagine the glorious turning in the Abyss!

[One Two Three Five]

I more meant imp pcs! Yeah, I'm 90% sure NPC demons are proper outsiders. I'd have to check, but 90%.

[msterswrdsmn]

Did some offline testing. Bless weapon won't stack with moonblades as they both have the same damage type vs racial property; the higher one will override the other. It'll probably work if they had different damage properties (ex; moonblades are positive energy, bless weapon is divine).

Thanks for the suggestions thus far, though!

[Sab1]

My undead hating pallie would love to have another undead hater to hang around with. A few issues I have experienced as a pallie. Of course I'm not a cleric also so I lack some bonuses to turn.

1. You won't be turning any high lvl players spawns. Not sure if the server has made any changes but NWN has something like a +10 to resist turning for summons.
2. My guess is high lvl players such as imps and vamps will be the same way where high lvl pcs won't be turned.
3. Seems any undead close to your lvl good luck trying to turn. My pallie may succeed 1 out of every 10 tries at Minmir and never even tries at mourn now. But again maybe with domain bonuses and harper bonuses it could be easier.

Think all you need for a harper is a token, if you want to be a turner and it gives a bonus I say go that route. You will need all the bonuses you can. The harper problem is trying to find another ig a lot of times

[High Primate]

I'd go CHA cleric. Powerful turning, heal, mass heal, undeath to death, sunbeam--can't go wrong. Mass Heal can wipe out summoned vampires and Dracoliches.

(Paladin levels will add nothing mechanically to this, by the way--fighter is a much better choice, but it will still be fairly effective against undead).

[msterswrdsmn]

I'd go CHA cleric. Powerful turning, heal, mass heal, undeath to death, sunbeam--can't go wrong. Mass Heal can wipe out summoned vampires and Dracoliches.

(Paladin levels will add nothing mechanically to this, by the way--fighter is a much better choice, but it will still be fairly effective against undead).

Paladin levels would totally work! CHA bonuses to saves, fear immunity, taunt, discipline, and a few minor spells clerics don't have access to.

How much WIS would you want with a build like that, anyhow? It'd be a hard split, since spellcasting needs WIS, but special abilities (divine might/shield, turning) require CHA.

[One Two Three Five]

I'd run it like a battlecleric and stick to 19. Does Mass Heal have a save?

[msterswrdsmn]

Unless something has changed on Arelith? No, its a ranged touch attack. Which shouldn't be hard to make unless i'm trying to slap something with an absurdly high natural AC

[WanderingPoet]

I think a fun Undead Hunter would be someone that can track, sneak up to and stab those pesky undead. So what could be fun:

Elf - for moonblades, probably sun or moon for int or dex boost
21 Ranger, 3 bard, 6 PDK

-Ranger gives Bane of Enemy and Favoured Enemy (so +2 to hit, +5 and +2d6 damage), dual wield moonblades (and use blade thirst until you get them), HIPS in natural areas, stealth skills, tumble
-Bard with skillpoints saved would give you UMD and enough perform to get lasting inspiration for long lasting PDK abilities. Also bard song for 1 AB and 2 damage
-PDK would give you (with lasting inspiration) a long lasting Inspire courage (+1 ab/damage) and fear(-1 AC, ASF), and oath of wrath (AB/damage from int, which if high lets you get stealth/tumble and save for perform/UMD at bard levels)

With 20 str/int for easy math you'd have:
To hit: 29 BAB +5 str +4 moonblade +2 favoured enemy/bane of enemies + 1 bard song +1 inspire courage +1 (-1 ac fear) +5 oath of wrath = 48
Damage: 1d8 base longsword + 4 moonblade + 2d8 moonblade vs undead + 2d6 bane of enemy +5 favoured enemy +2 bard song + 1 inspire courage +5 oath of wrath = 22-53

Of course, the above is counting rather weak gear - you'd be able to get a higher str/int (though more likely str/dex since you'd be in light armour for dual wield feats, as well as elemental enchantments/permanent essence on the blades adding another 1d4/1d6 damage since moonblades are runic.

[Lorkas]

Ranger gives Bane of Enemy and Favoured Enemy (so +7 to hit, +5 and +2d6 damage),

Only +2 to AB. Favoured enemy doesn't give a bonus to AB, apart from the 2 from BoE.

[MissEvelyn]

Ranger/Paladin/Rogue: Bane of Enemies and Bless Weapon with a few UMD tricks.

I'm curious about this build. With Ranger you would need some wisdom to be able to cast any ranger spells. And isn't Bane of Enemies a lvl 21 ranger feat?

[WanderingPoet]

Ranger gives Bane of Enemy and Favoured Enemy (so +7 to hit, +5 and +2d6 damage),

Only +2 to AB. Favoured enemy doesn't give a bonus to AB, apart from the 2 from BoE.

Good point thanks. Fixed

[msterswrdsmn]

Ranger/Paladin/Rogue: Bane of Enemies and Bless Weapon with a few UMD tricks.

I'm curious about this build. With Ranger you would need some wisdom to be able to cast any ranger spells. And isn't Bane of Enemies a lvl 21 ranger feat?

It was something like ranger 21/paladin 4/rogue XXX. Rogue levels aren't needed in great numbers, as sneaks don't work against undead. 4 paladin was for bless weapon, which could be scribed/wanded for multiple uses.

Key feats would be bane of enemies, with the fav. enemies spread out amoungst creatures a zealous religious hunter might target (outsiders, abberations, etc). Bless weapon and maybe divine power if I could squeeze the feats/CHA out for it. WIS wouldn't be terribly high given the stat spread demands, but it would be enough to get at least a few ranger and paladin spells out. Again; scribe scroll/craft wands would be needed to overcome the limited castings per rest issue.

Runic studded leather would probably the armor of choice. Not sure about the weapon; slashing weapons would allow blade thirst use, but slashing weapons have issues against some undead types.

Bard could probably be substituted for rogue and the spells could be scrolled/wanded to overcome the limited spells per day issue.
....
Thats the rough idea I had. Didn't really hammer out the details.

[gilescorey]

I know I said I was going to make an edit, but there's been a lot of replies since so I feel like this is a better way of going about things.

Like other people have said, I think a Cleric with some points in Charisma fits your bill pretty reasonably, but it's a really tough split - the only stat you don't need many points in is Dexterity; Paladins are rough in terms of MAD, and CHA-clerics have a further inflated version of that same issue.

It seems like this dip into Paladin for the ability of casting Bless Weapon is pretty important to you, so we'll work from that point.

You mention Pally/Bard/AA, and I think that might be another really good option - you can cast Bless Weapon and put some essences on your arrow bundles, then remove the arrows from the bundles for really strong undead-hunter arrows. You can also trade those with other people, whether for the money or simply a "they'll only go to one use" sort of reasoning.

You could also go with ye-olde-Monk/Bard/AA and just utilise wands, but that seems less thematic. Pally/Bard/AA does have more damage but a much harder time in PVP.

I'm unsold as to the effectiveness that a Ranger build with dips into Paladin will bring though, but it seems cool thematically; just not very solid mechanically.

I suppose you could also take a page from Ork's book and roll a STR-based 17paladin/10cot/3rog (if I remember right) sort of deal - they can get pretty uber AB once a rest, but it doesn't seem particularly flavoured toward smashing undead as much as it does smashing all sorts of evil, being a paladin and all.

[MissEvelyn]

It was something like ranger 21/paladin 4/rogue XXX. Rogue levels aren't needed in great numbers, as sneaks don't work against undead. 4 paladin was for bless weapon, which could be scribed/wanded for multiple uses.

Key feats would be bane of enemies, with the fav. enemies spread out amoungst creatures a zealous religious hunter might target (outsiders, abberations, etc). Bless weapon and maybe divine power if I could squeeze the feats/CHA out for it. WIS wouldn't be terribly high given the stat spread demands, but it would be enough to get at least a few ranger and paladin spells out. Again; scribe scroll/craft wands would be needed to overcome the limited castings per rest issue.

Runic studded leather would probably the armor of choice. Not sure about the weapon; slashing weapons would allow blade thirst use, but slashing weapons have issues against some undead types.

Bard could probably be substituted for rogue and the spells could be scrolled/wanded to overcome the limited spells per day issue.
....
Thats the rough idea I had. Didn't really hammer out the details.

Bard would be a viable replacement for Rogue, I think. Unless you really want that Evasion, which I can see why it might be useful (against traps in Undead crypts is what comes to mind).

But all in all, I think this build would be really interesting! If I ever do play an Undead-killing person, I'd be tempted to go with this one.

Human would make most sense when it comes to the build alone, but I'd be tempted to do elf, just for the RP.

[Baron Saturday]

What about elf Ranger 21/Bard 3/PDK(Vanguard) 6?

Nets you +4 blade thirst, bane of enemies, Lingering Song, 7x PDK Fear/day, and Vanguard-upgraded Oath of Wrath. ("Target loses AC equal to the Knight's current (modified) INT modifier for 1 round per class level. For 1 hour per class level, Knights Vanguard get a bonus equal to their base INT modifier to attack and damage against all creatures with the same race as the target.") Also all the PDK buffs for any animal companions.

Also, elf/ranger/bard gives you access to Lesser Moon Blade, Ranger's Studded Tunic, and awesome bard instruments.

Stat spread could be a bit wonky -- 13 Wis for Blade Thirst, 14 (preferably 16) Int for Oath of Wrath?, and Str/Con -- but less so than some of the ideas here!

EDIT: I suppose you could swap 1 PDK for a 4th level of bard at 24, skilldump Perform up to 25, and pick up Lasting Inspiration, but I'm not sure it would be worth it.

[Opustus]

Think all you need for a harper is a token, if you want to be a turner and it gives a bonus I say go that route. You will need all the bonuses you can. The harper problem is trying to find another ig a lot of times

I suggested the problem with the Harper class wasn't only mechanical but also RP. So far as I've understood, you really have to fit the standards of the Kool and the Gang to be able to be one, which already limits how your character can be roleplayed. I'd consider it a huge commitment to make your character a Harper, along the lines of a character being a cleric, paladin or BG; as in quite strictly adhering to the ideals of their affiliation. Of course, I may be totally wrong and have misinterpreted the general rule on RPing Harpers. If I'm right on the money, however, one should only opt for the class if she wants to play a Harper in the first place. I'd imagine the moral code of an edgy Kelemvorite undead hunter to be often compromised and infinitely ambiguous.

About the Turn DCs, though I'm probably wrong, it's probably calculated as CL (30) + CHA (e.g. 13) mod + d20 (averaging at 10.5) + Sun domain and Harper bonus (average of 2.5 + 3), you'd Turn for the total of 59. If I'm not a complete twunt and have utterly misunderstood something about the wiki article (the explanation was a bit messy), this means that creatures with creature level below 28 are insta-gibbed. But again, I'd have someone smarter to verify my maths, I can't make sense of the wiki page alas.

[kittenblackfriends]

Being a Harper isn't that much of an issue if you're a normally skilled roleplayer. The question is if it fits your concept. Harpers fight for freedom - they're very similar to paladins, except usually CG.

[Opustus]

Being a Harper isn't that much of an issue if you're a normally skilled roleplayer. The question is if it fits your concept. Harpers fight for freedom - they're very similar to paladins, except usually CG.

Meh, who's to say who's skilled or not? I'm not sure how secretive the Harpers are on Arelith, but during my 10 years of roleplay on Amia none of my characters ever met one. I don't think it's fair to compare Arelith to Amia in that regard, but the fact of the matter usually is that certain people have access, depending on how much they play and with whom. You don't only have to RP to a standard, you also have to fit in and make friends (not claiming that this is a bad thing). If, for example, a player could shout out on the forum if their character could be trained as a Harper, I'm sure it would open many doors to unfamiliarized players, but I doubt that this is the way Harper recruitment gets handled for reasons of secrecy.

EDIT: And yus, agreed wholeheartedly, I too think the chief question is if the class fits the concept.

[kittenblackfriends]

To be a Harper, you just have to submit an app with the DM team to show that you know how to play a Harper. You don't even need to interact with player Harpers.

And if you haven't met a Harper, that's a good thing. Harpers shouldn't be easily foxed out.