Regarding the most recent Barbarian nerf

[menter]

Hey there. Player of Mudagog here. To characters who played front liners and focused on being a damage sponge without the EDR, I feel like the playstyle is now heavily affected. I feel like I'm less useful in PVE, which is my focus.

We can't afford the Dex, so most barbs don't have AC (some having as low as 10-20 range of AC) so the HP was that was going for us.

I understand the need for the nerf too but maybe some math that wouldn't make the Temp HP nerf so dramatic? Or maybe compensate this somehow - EDR is more important now if you wanna build a HP tank but I've finally reached level 29 with my char only to have a nerf that makes him not optimal to the playstyle I wanted to have, and it's such a letdown.

[Cortex]

You can get just as much AC as a WM (with the added bonus of DI/DR) if you build towards it.

And barbarian was the only 2h that could, for the most part, safely solo PvE, I don't know if it still can as reliably, but it was all really stacked.

[Spyre]

The nerf is also not so heavy in HP. You probably dropped 60 HP? Yet maintained all your damage output and other increases.

You already have an exceptionally high amount. The formula, new and old, are presented for clarity - if you review them, you shouldn't see a high difference.

They are still better than the vanilla Barbarians with everything else added to them.

[TimeAdept]

A 24 barbarian building for EDr will have probably a minimum of 22 base con, buffed to 34. Their previous HP formula was as follows:

Gives temp HP = 50% of barbarian levels HP.

12 + CON + [1 if the Barbarian has Toughness]) * Barbarian Levels / 2.

Their new formula is as follows:

Temporary HP reduced to 6 x Class Level.

This means our previous barbarian was receiving:

12 + 12 +1 * (24/2) = 25 x 12 = 300 HP. This goes up if the barbarian had more CON, or more barb levels, but 23/24 barbarian and 22 base con seems pretty baseline with what the old class seemed to intend for PCs to build for.

Now they receive 144. This is a loss of 156 HP, over half of what the class previous received. This value increases the more CON a barb had - so the more a barb invested in the stat that they were rewarded in investing in, thanks to CON damage scaling in epic, EDR, and the percentage HP, the more they lost due to this change.

A theoretical 14 CON barbarian with 16 levels (a known slayer build with specific tooling), buffing to 26 CON previousl had:

12+8+1 * (16/2) = 21 x 8 = 168 bonus HP.

They now receive 96 bonus HP. This is a loss of 72 HP, less than half of what they received before.

HOWEVER:

Due to having a lower CON, they are able to rage more often, and cycle the three round speed boost, and the extra HP, much more often than our theoretical 24 barb with EDR. That said - I admit the EDR build is inherently tankier, and the amount of effective HP they have is much more. However, it can't be understated that the ability to "rage cycle" on a faster cooldown compared to a high CON EDR build (even worse if thyey take Mighty Rage - which extends rage by a full minute, further disabling the ability to re-rage again to get a big HP buff midfight, something skilled barbarians learn to plan around and save for) allows the lower CON barb the ability to get 3 round sprints and extra HP much more often.

I postulate that the "correct" way to build Barb now is to go no more than 18 CON. You are no longer rewarded for going high CON except for Mighty Rage and EDR, as your class damage if you go 23 barb is +4, you receive the best rage boost possible since you have 18 con, and you free up more ability points to go into damage and dex to fill out your armor needs, since the class perversely still gets a free +4 AC for wearing chain shirt, and can still fill out Addy Shirt or Masterly Elven Chainmail. However, going high CON EDR reduces the amount of times you are able to rage, and now that rage is on a 3 round timer, a longer rage period is actually detrimental to the amount of time you can remain in rage, get your bonus HP, and get your sprints when you need them.

On top of this, there are several builds that actually benefit more by only going 14-16 con, as the change in stats allows you to have a higher STr, which translates into +1/+2 all day attack bonus, vs situational AB that only works while you're in a rage. Effectively, the 18 con baseline rage nerf isn't actually accomplishing what the creators seem to have intended for the class - as going under the threshold actually allows you to get bigger numbers all the time, rather than being rage focused.

I SUGGEST:

Recoupling CON into the rage somehow, like adding an extra round of the movement speed for every 5 CON mod, allowing a 30 con barbarian to sprint for 5 rounds instead of 3. Allowing Toughness to continue to contribute to the Rage HP would be a boon as well. Perhaps a higher CON allows you to rage slightly more often, giving you a short cooldown, to prevent the lower CON "rage cycling" problem that the class, IMO, now has.

~~~

Thank you for reading.

[BegoneThoth]

Mighty rage is a trap feat anyway. To use it you need to not-rage until you get cc'd, and likely have already -prayed because that purges CC too.

Because it extends rage so long, with the earth-shattering HP nerf of almost half of the classes core ability, you can't rage nearly as often, making what was an arguably bad feat pickup to just terrible.

[TimeAdept]

Mighty Rage is a secondary button you can use to extend a rage you're already in, so you don't need to not rage at all if you expect CC, you can rage, and then Mighty out of it.

[Tig3rtron]

Ummmm.... Mighty Rage is not a secondary button. It activates simultaneously with terrifying rage. And I do agree, it makes getting Mighty Rage a terrible pick in levels.

[TimeAdept]

Ummmm.... Mighty Rage is not a secondary button. It activates simultaneously with terrifying rage. And I do agree, it makes getting Mighty Rage a terrible pick in levels.

Wow. Uh, ok. Mighty Rage is worthless then.

[Tig3rtron]

Ummmm.... Mighty Rage is not a secondary button. It activates simultaneously with terrifying rage. And I do agree, it makes getting Mighty Rage a terrible pick in levels.

Wow. Uh, ok. Mighty Rage is worthless then.

My point exactly... I wish they made it a secondary button. It makes much more sense and worth to consider when building barbs. I hope DMs reconsider this thread and our suggestions.

[flower]

If lower CON allows you to cycle rage more often than higher CON then there is something wrong and should be fixed. People with higher CON should be benefitting not penalised for it.

Second, barbarian can reach as high AC as WM with very small effort. Argument they have no AC cannot simple stand.

Lowered HPS will make all those dualwielders half orcs who do not pay for taking dual weapon feats (in feats and dexterity) more touchable.

HP shield anyway lost its purpose already and i am surprised it is still kept in IG. Same the bonus speed.

[BegoneThoth]

If lower CON allows you to cycle rage more often than higher CON then there is something wrong and should be fixed. People with higher CON should be benefitting not penalised for it.

16 barb and 15ish con is the sweet-spot.

it wasn't too hard for me to do the math when making the build.

[Cortex]

A good alternative to the CON contradiction is to have the cooldown start upon using it, and make it a bit longer.

[Hexgoblin]

I'm a bit late to the party, but there are a few things I'm seeing here that I feel the need to address. I'll speak in very frank, if subjective mechanical terms, as that seems to be the theme of the discussion.

In regards to the concern of the OP. If you're intending for your character to be an HP sponge, yet opting out of EDR, then you're not an HP sponge. That's kind of the blank truth. There are plenty of ways to build an offensive or defensive barbarian. If something enables you to be an HP sponge without investment in said venue, then something isn't working properly. Barbarian as it stood, gave players a whole lot for very little. A class should not land revenue by existing, but in and of itself represent a building block that in interaction with other facets of the game fulfills a purpose.

Mighty Rage currently is not great. It's not 'bad'. It's definitely a low priority, though. The kensai-era 24/6 build generally picked it due to feat surplus, and the single instance extension of the thundering/terrifying effects, both of which are very integral to the post-epic gameplay of a barbarian. If looking to it for the CC removal, though -- then yes, I fully agree with you. It's very bad. Holding off on using the ability that your entire character build revolves around, for the eventuality of being subject to a disable, is not a good idea. If caught offguard, it's great, but that's about it.

With how the rage cooldown currently interacts, it's a double edged sword. It extends individual rage uses, which is great in certain PvP scenarios, situationally solid in dungeons depending on your role, and objectively bad if needing to replenish your temporary HP more frequently in lengthy encounters. It favors short engagements where a rage cooldown reset won't really be on the table to begin with. It melds especially well with thundering, on a character designated as a dungeon damage-dealer, in that output at that point is a lot more valid than reacting to incoming damage. Where that becomes a tad awkward, is said designated DPS flavor of barbarian might rather forego the 21 CON requirement of the feat.

The barbarian meta shifting back to UMD dumps post-kensai removal will most likely see Mighty Rage fall out of the feat rotation, given the lesser amount of barbarian levels most characters will have open post-epic, along with the loss of at the very least a bonus feat. Hence it's definitely worth looking at for future tweaking. Perhaps, as Cortex mentioned above a re-do of the cooldown mechanic, or moving the CC cleanse to a separate ability use or command.

That just about sums my thoughts here. The temp HP reduction from my(again, very subjective) point of view is generally just healthy. It still serves its thematic purpose, without forgiving a disfavorable engagement to the same degree.

[BegoneThoth]

I think 800 hp and on-demanding healing that requires no action is still an HP sponge. If you don't that's fine, but it explains a few things about this update.

Second this nerf only really hurt the HP sponge builds as the pro blender builds stop at around 16 and really don't get hit because they deal like 1000 plus damage a round and kill things, and even those builds now trend to assassin/PDK and not barb because they can unload 1100 damage on a guaranteed to be flat-footed target with no save, so too little too late to nerf that offensive/tank playstyle or build.

Mighty rage is bad, to me it's low priority in that it might be the 20th or so epic feat I'd take on an epic barb.

With how the cooldown on rage currently interacts, it does not yield a net gain in rage uptime. Simply an extension of individual uses, which is great in certain PvP scenarios, whatever in dungeons, and objectively bad if needing to replenish your temp HP more frequently in lengthy encounters. It favors short engagements where a rage cooldown reset won't really be on the table to begin with.

I would respond to this but I don't know exactly what you mean, but I'll try anyway. When you hit rage you get a big boost of temp HP that you can use to take the edge off packs of things or players. Being able to refresh that pool more often is far more valuable then having that pool last three or four times as long because you get so few more HP for going deep barb or mighty rage. If you want you can do the math I did and see the difference in HP over 10 minutes you heal with a 16 barb vs a 24 barb and see how a 16 barb is actually more tanky, and the temp health doesn't matter too much in PVP anyway as the new blender builds throw 1000+ damage per round down-range.

That just about sums my thoughts here. The temp HP reduction from my(again, very subjective) point of view is generally just healthy. It still serves its thematic purpose, without forgiving a disfavorable engagement to the same degree.

In my opinion it gutted defensive barbarians that went for high con and pretty much did nothing to the barbarian blenders, and the HP numbers show that.

[Poolbrain]

Playing a 2-hand barb i think the hp nerf is pretty fine. But perhaps add a mechanic so that the rage can be cancelled prematurely, starting the CD at will? This way the bonus duration of mighty rage becomes less of a punishment while keeping the bonus hp every fight to the same nerfed amount.

[Hexgoblin]

It's early morning, and I agree that I borked the Mighty Rage uptime segment. Gave that and a few other points an edit.

The way I look at it, the option to build fully offensive is still there. If an alternative's your fancy, I'd recommend picking up a shield and a tumble dump. The temporary HP still yields a pretty marvelous defense when coupled with a more than acceptable base HP pool, AC and DR.

[BegoneThoth]

It's early morning, and I agree that I borked the Mighty Rage uptime segment. Gave that and a few other points an edit.

The way I look at it, the option to build fully offensive is still there. If an alternative's your fancy, I'd recommend picking up a shield and a tumble dump. The temporary HP still yields a pretty marvelous defense when coupled with a more than acceptable base HP pool, AC and DR.

Currently I believe the only option is the offensive one given that defensive builds just lost a huge chunk of what made them defensive.

Movespeed nerf was fine, revert hp nerf, untie damage and con and instead tie that bonus damage to total barb levels and back-load it so deep-barb (24+) is encouraged rather then punished and a 'defensive' barb can exist.

[Hexgoblin]

It's my turn to be a tad confused here.

I don't know to what standards you hold a defensive character, if 13 DR, AC in the early 40s using peak quality medium armor and a tower shield, along with a casual hp in the upper 600s doesn't meet the mark. Given you've the rage temp hp, terrifying rage mitigation, a slew of buffs and expertise/improved expertise to tag on further as needed.

[BegoneThoth]

You can close in on 60 AC if you buff/build right.

But the thing is you gain almost no appreciable benefits from going that hard and deep into barbarian; You get about 100 more HP, in exchange for an enormous loss of damage potential and about 5 or 6 feats by not going offense focused; hell I think your defense build might actually be better with 16 or less barbarian due to the huge number of feats (which translate into saves or a full compliment of epic melee feats easily) and 2 free AC the barb/fighter version gets.

So there's just no reason to go for that 100ish more HP; it's 2 ac and 6 feats.

And I think that's really tragic, that there is a class as 'pure' as barbarian where you actually actively discourage heavy investment.

But Rogue is like that too so perhaps it's best barbarian is getting any attention at all.

[rookie]

I'm curious, how much does the stat block vary from an optimized WM and barbarian now?

(Note: I'm not looking to make one, sheer curiosity.)

[nobs3]

I like specialized builds with clear weak spots. So I made a pure barb and not a 27/3 or 23/4/3 or whatever. (no USM, no tumble skill dump...)

All rages, full DR at lvl 30. Two-handed, heavy armor - and hard hit by the nerf

Buffed about 30AC and 700hp = rage: 1050hp (=350 temp hp)

With mighty rage and low AC he often needs that 350hp. But yes it was a nice backup that opened the possibility to roleplay the fearless stuborn type he is.

Now 180hp is not bad.

But not taking const into account when it comes to temp hp is just irritating. I would rather have halfed the original formula (close same effect - at least for my barb).

And yes the duration effect on mighty rage should be rethought - maybe 1/3 less cooldown time would be nice.

[Cortex]

You can close in on 60 AC if you buff/build right.

But the thing is you gain almost no appreciable benefits from going that hard and deep into barbarian; You get about 100 more HP, in exchange for an enormous loss of damage potential and about 5 or 6 feats by not going offense focused; hell I think your defense build might actually be better with 16 or less barbarian due to the huge number of feats (which translate into saves or a full compliment of epic melee feats easily) and 2 free AC the barb/fighter version gets.

So there's just no reason to go for that 100ish more HP; it's 2 ac and 6 feats.

And I think that's really tragic, that there is a class as 'pure' as barbarian where you actually actively discourage heavy investment.

But Rogue is like that too so perhaps it's best barbarian is getting any attention at all.

I didn't understand any of this.

What is this "blender build"?

Edit: To further elaborate on the usefulness of DR and DI, barbarians get 10% DI from rage, 10% from gear, and then maybe some more depending on racial stats/gear, but let's round it down to 20%. Damage will be reduced this way:

20 Damage -> 3 damage taken, 17 mitigated.
30 Damage -> 11 damage taken, 19 mitigated.
40 Damage -> 19 damage taken, 21 mitigated
50 Damage -> 27 damage taken, 23 mitigated.
60 Damage -> 35 damage taken, 25 mitigated.
...
100 Damage -> 67 damage taken, 33, mitigated.

With the +4 bonus AC, HP you get from having 32 CON buffed, the -3 terrifying rage AB penalty, the bonus HP, the barbarian can get immensely tanky while having 45-47 AB during rage. IIRC one of my barbarians would get 42 or so unbuffed AC and could get up to 50 with common enough buffs (barkskin, dexterity and mage armor), enough AC that I could afford not using expertise depending on match up. All of this with 21 barbarian levels.

edit: fixed some number crap

[flower]

I like specialized builds with clear weak spots. So I made a pure barb and not a 27/3 or 23/4/3 or whatever. (no USM, no tumble skill dump...)

All rages, full DR at lvl 30. Two-handed, heavy armor - and hard hit by the nerf

Buffed about 30AC and 700hp = rage: 1050hp (=350 temp hp)

With mighty rage and low AC he often needs that 350hp. But yes it was a nice backup that opened the possibility to roleplay the fearless stuborn type he is.

Now 180hp is not bad.

But not taking const into account when it comes to temp hp is just irritating. I would rather have halfed the original formula (close same effect - at least for my barb).

And yes the duration effect on mighty rage should be rethought - maybe 1/3 less cooldown time would be nice.

I am sorry, but things have to be set with the optimised builds in mind. If it was not the case, then those who make -optimised- would greatly benefit from it and you would feel the impact as well.

[Cerk Evermoore]

You can close in on 60 AC if you buff/build right.

But the thing is you gain almost no appreciable benefits from going that hard and deep into barbarian; You get about 100 more HP, in exchange for an enormous loss of damage potential and about 5 or 6 feats by not going offense focused; hell I think your defense build might actually be better with 16 or less barbarian due to the huge number of feats (which translate into saves or a full compliment of epic melee feats easily) and 2 free AC the barb/fighter version gets.

So there's just no reason to go for that 100ish more HP; it's 2 ac and 6 feats.

And I think that's really tragic, that there is a class as 'pure' as barbarian where you actually actively discourage heavy investment.

But Rogue is like that too so perhaps it's best barbarian is getting any attention at all.

What is this "blender build"?

Blender build I think is half orc barb kensai with Thundering Rage and double sided weapon.

[Cortex]

You mean, this one, which gets EDR3 and 21 CON?