RDI and the "Be Nice" Rule

[MoreThanThree]

Red Dragon Island has two fire giants and a golem that spawn immediately in front of the exit portal. Could they get moved back a transition or two? Are builders exempt from Arelith's rules?

[Nitro]

I believe that the only method of keeping them from spawning on the portal would be to have the portal in a separate area, since spawns pop up randomly over areas that they can spawn in.

[MoreThanThree]

the portal would be to have the portal in a separate area,

ok Can we do that then?

[Iceborn]

While getting rolfstomped as soon as you transition is kinda of a dicking mechanical thing to happen, I think it's something you can take ICly too, to organize your group and prepare beforehand - sending the one most likely to survive alone first, etc.

Not opposed to have the spawn moved, but I don't think it's strictly necessary either.

[MissEvelyn]

I agree with Iceborn.

Besides, NPCs don't follow the same rules as us =)

[The Rambling Midget]

You know it's going to happen. Prepare.

I always go through that portal fully buffed and ready for a fight.

[TimeAdept]

Transition spawns are absolutely the worst.

[Alantar]

Invisibility before transitioning or Darkness once you are there should give you time enough to prepare or wait for the rest of the group. You can also prepare before you step into the portal.

[Orian_666]

Yea, just go through prepared, preferably invisible.

Also there's no point in making any changes because afaik RDI is on the short list for a massive overhaul once Irongron gets back into the swing of things

[good man of god]

What am I reading?

Just.. ward up first? It's an epic level dungeon, the Be Nice Rule isn't being broken just because you get kicked into the Wall by a portal-spawn that is there by design, every single time you go to RDI.

The definition of insanity, is repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting results.

[WanderingPoet]

If I was a fire giant and had noticed that adventurers kept coming by to murder my family and boss by teleporting to this annoying portal that I couldn't get rid of? You know, I'd want to post guards to smoosh anyone coming through too

[Basementfellow]

Y'all really tryna defend the fun-killing abomination unto dungeon design that are transition spawns?

Traps are one thing, ambushes are another, but getting immediately dogpiled before you even completely load in to the area isn't interesting, and clearly isn't intentional. Even fully buffed, the sheer number of enemies and amount of damage they pump into you before you can react will often spell out your death.

This sorta thing happens in lower level dungeons too, and it's never made for an enjoyable or otherwise engaging experience. It doesn't happen often enough to be predictable, but it does happen enough to be annoying. I'm convinced it's an unintentional behavior -- enemies seem to gravitate towards interactable objects such as chests and doors, so they can uselessly fiddle around with them. It's especially noticeable in places like the Malar Temple -- a low midlevel dungeon -- where I've had the displeasure of getting ganked by three archpriests, several warhowlers, werewolves, and beasts of malar that were all inexplicably clumped up together in the doorway exit.

Let me reiterate -- there are often so many mobs coalescing at a transition that you will be killed even if you are fully warded. It's just not fun, nor interesting to engage with. Players should be able to react to challenges. Preparation should be key, yes, but ideally we shouldn't have to prepare for what is essentially a glitch.

[Vincent]

It is most certainly unintentional lol. I don't know what spawn system Arelith uses but the basic 'encounter' system in NwN toolset lets enemies basically spawn anywhere within a designated area. It isn't hard to script a 'spawn around this object' type system either, and there exists many other more robust approaches. I imagine this likely just isn't deemed a priority issue as it is fairly easy to counter anything like this as long as you come prepared. It's also the reason why you often get enemies spawning on inaccessible ledges. In my opinion it doesn't really happen anywhere dangerous enough to warrant concern. If you're going to RDI, you probably have a fellow adventurer or two with you and you can easily ward up at the Sibayad portal before going through. It therefore seems rather easy to get around this with a little knowhow. The only truly annoying encounters are those where spellcasters are behind a group of melee users in long, tight corridors, though line of sight often helps in these situations and I guess it's just the NPCs giving us a taste of our own medicine, lol.

[Iceborn]

RDI is in Surface, not Shores.

That said, yes, it does suck to get rolfstomped the moment you get out of a transition, but you can still prepare for it, and honestly this is more a quirk of NWN in general than something you can specifically address, or have the devs pouring time and effort trying to solve.

[Vincent]

RDI is in Surface, not Shores.

The portal in Sibayad isn't, it's on surface. Perfectly good place to get prepared for RDI, or the Arcane Tower works, or even Minmir.

[Iceborn]

My bad! I keep forgetting where the stuff is with all the changes.

[-XXX-]

This is hardly an RDI exclusive design - there are harder dungeons that spawn a lot tougher NPCs in much tighter area transitions (Q: how many ghours can fit into one doorway?).

This entire matter isn't really about the "Be nice rule" and has a fairly straightforward explanation in the "When bad things happen to good adventurers" IG publication and even more straightforward solution of the "Git gud" variety.

[Maladus]

This is something I've been curious about for a long while and since I don't know enough about creating a dungeon in NWN, I haven't really got an answer. If anyone who knows could please provide an answer I'd appreciate it. Why ARE there so many spawns that happen immediately upon transitions?

One of the rules of level design that has been drilled into my head is "don't drop the player into danger immediately upon loading." You can say what you want about "being prepared" before going to a dangerous place and I would even agree with you that it is a good idea to do that. However, it doesn't excuse what in my eyes is bad design; IF IT IS DONE INTENTIONALLY. It may be the case that the designer doesn't have the option to specify specific spawn points for their enemies, which in turn would be more of an oversight on the part of Bioware when they initially made the Aurora Toolset.

[The Kriv]

fire giants and golems spawning immediately in front of the exit portal is part of the charm of RDI. You just don't get THAT kind of treatment anywhere else! Savor it! It is what makes RDI, RDI.

{edit}
Turning a corner in a dungeon... or walking into the first room of a dungeon... and having it full of baddies 'is' all part of D&D... think of it as a cinematic moment. Think of it like... The enemy has won the surprise round... where EVERY OTHER transition 'YOU" win the Surprise round.

https://goo.gl/images/BnsamM

[MoreThanThree]

"Just prepare for it" in response to bad game design is the same as telling someone "just don't get sick" as medical advice.

[Cerk Evermoore]

More like floors slippery while wet, but you run past the sign over the wet floor anyways because you can't be bothered to slow down.

[Nitro]

This is something I've been curious about for a long while and since I don't know enough about creating a dungeon in NWN, I haven't really got an answer. If anyone who knows could please provide an answer I'd appreciate it. Why ARE there so many spawns that happen immediately upon transitions?

One of the rules of level design that has been drilled into my head is "don't drop the player into danger immediately upon loading." You can say what you want about "being prepared" before going to a dangerous place and I would even agree with you that it is a good idea to do that. However, it doesn't excuse what in my eyes is bad design; IF IT IS DONE INTENTIONALLY. It may be the case that the designer doesn't have the option to specify specific spawn points for their enemies, which in turn would be more of an oversight on the part of Bioware when they initially made the Aurora Toolset.

It's because we don't have set spawn locations (except for bosses) but rather spawn everything randomly across areas in differing amounts to keep things more replayable. This of course has the unfortunate effect that transitions are part of the area and therefore mobs can spawn there.

[Alantar]

If there's something that the RDI really needs, is to pose a harder challenge. With a simple wand of invisibility you can go straight to Arbazuur avoiding the giants. Besides, Arbazuur herself is very easy to kill for most lvl 30, even solo, with just a little bit of tactics. What I'd really like to see is a high epic dungeon, only doable by a group of 4 or 5 lvl 30 well prepared and fearing for their lives at all times.

[Maladus]

This is something I've been curious about for a long while and since I don't know enough about creating a dungeon in NWN, I haven't really got an answer. If anyone who knows could please provide an answer I'd appreciate it. Why ARE there so many spawns that happen immediately upon transitions?

One of the rules of level design that has been drilled into my head is "don't drop the player into danger immediately upon loading." You can say what you want about "being prepared" before going to a dangerous place and I would even agree with you that it is a good idea to do that. However, it doesn't excuse what in my eyes is bad design; IF IT IS DONE INTENTIONALLY. It may be the case that the designer doesn't have the option to specify specific spawn points for their enemies, which in turn would be more of an oversight on the part of Bioware when they initially made the Aurora Toolset.

It's because we don't have set spawn locations (except for bosses) but rather spawn everything randomly across areas in differing amounts to keep things more replayable. This of course has the unfortunate effect that transitions are part of the area and therefore mobs can spawn there.

Is there any way to create some sort of buffer zone around transitions? I'm guessing not because if it was possible then it's likely it would have been done already but I'm just curious.

[Durvayas]

Unpopular opinion here...

I actually like that I get swarmed as soon as I cross through the ice road portal by up to 12 mobs.

It makes sense to set up an ambush there, and feels more realistic. Yes. The first time you portal there, if you aren't aware beforehand, you'll probably get killed. But thats part of the experience. If you're going to teleport into hostile territory, you need to be prepared for the hostiles in that territory. There's no good reason using portals should be safe from ambush.