On PVP Target Selection and Hostile Capabilities

[RandomhouseAudio]

So there have been a lot of situations in PVP where large groups have gone at it and many have died who were innocents and bystanders. I feel one of the main issues with how to flag large scale PVP is the command that hostiles all but those in your party.

I have a possibility for a solution:

Either a tool that hostiles when you click on a person, or a tool that when you click on a person it hostiles their party. This would help cut down on the number of innocent or by standing individuals caught in AoE's which respect the hostility rules, makes them safer to use, and makes it a lot less likely to cause these needless casualties.

I know that these sort of enhancements should be possible, and would likely be a very helpful quality of life tool for players who are about to engage to more accurately select the correct individuals.

What do people think?

[Tarkus the dog]

I think that the PvP mentality of the server has to change.

[RandomhouseAudio]

The reality is that there will be times when larger groups engage on one another. And it'd be safer if they can quickly target only the needed people.

[Kreydis]

Or people need to seriously consider backing off if groups of armed adventurers seem to be ready to go at it.

PvP is apart of the server, and people need to treat it with respect as a tool for driving RP. But often it is used as a tool for enforcing one sided RP or just literally no RP at all, which the latter being the most often case I feel personally.

But again, context, and perception.

As it stands, it's very hard to figure out who is and isn't fighting. And the -hostile command hostiles everyone not in party, which means AoE spells are gonna hurt. So yeah, a widget that let's people selectively hostile is good, but what happens when people decide to go at it the second hostile is toggled? You won't have time to toggle everyone you're hostile with. So hence the area command.

[The Rambling Midget]

While it could be exploitable, I think looking into a party hostile command would be worth it. It won't solve all problems, but when you have one army against another, it would make clear who the bystanders are.

[AskRyze]

I agree 100% - There should be a tool that hostiles the enemy party, so that bystanders don't get caught in fireballs/wail of banshee/imbue arrow/whatever else. It'd fix 8/10 of the issues that DMs have that happen during mass PVP and I know for a fact that it's already possible in the engine.

[Zavandar]

i already see that being used to metagame if someone's in a party or not.

pass.

the mentality needs to change.

[Nitro]

I agree 100% - There should be a tool that hostiles the enemy party, so that bystanders don't get caught in fireballs/wail of banshee/imbue arrow/whatever else. It'd fix 8/10 of the issues that DMs have that happen during mass PVP and I know for a fact that it's already possible in the engine.

Have you considered not using those spells when there are innocent bystanders?

On a more serious note, this would be incredibly easy to metagame in a way that's very hard to prove. You can instantly pinpoint if the enemy has stealthers sneaking around, which of the onlookers might jump in to their aid, or if there's others in their party on their way there.

[RandomhouseAudio]

So, everything so far as I know is logged. If somebody is using this to metagame it should be pretty simple to determine so far as I'm aware.

I don't think mechanics to make things safer is a bad idea. And it's better than it exists now, which clearly has caused issues.

If people would exploit the mechanic, clearly they'd be punished for it. And introducing something that might be exploited by a small number of people who would likely be caught, just to deny it to people who use it responsibly seems silly.

I say this as one of the bystanders who was recently killed due to a hostile all wail of the banshee used in the hub. I don't feel just complaining that it happened will help. I knew that being there was dangerous,but this is also a way to maybe help solve a problem and to make things better, which, so far as I know, is the point of this.

[The Rambling Midget]

So, everything so far as I know is logged. If somebody is using this to metagame it should be pretty simple to determine so far as I'm aware.

I don't think mechanics to make things safer is a bad idea. And it's better than it exists now, which clearly has caused issues.

If people would exploit the mechanic, clearly they'd be punished for it. And introducing something that might be exploited by a small number of people who would likely be caught, just to deny it to people who use it responsibly seems silly.

Unfortunately, I don't think it would be at all simple to determine. It could potentially be used to see who is currently in an opponent's party, including the number of party members and even those in stealth if it does a combat log notification, and splitting party would still allow a group to introduce unknowns after things start, thus defeating the purpose. None of these are necessarily easy for the victims to catch or prove.

That said, I still think it's worth looking into, if only to spark new ideas for how mass hostiling works.

[The1Kobra]

I have been in situations though where there's mass PvP and I want to hostile one (or a few) people, rather than everyone in the vicinity. Sometimes there's a lot of players online though, and selecting names out of the list is not feasible. I do think a better option would be helpful, a widget that one can target other players with, even if only one at a time.

[TroubledWaters]

If your character is IC worried about killing a lot of people by accident in a fight, then why are you fighting in large crowds of bystanders?

[magistrasa]

Flagging as hostile goes both ways, so I wouldn't exactly say it's metagaming. If it were used to find out who's in a party, that same party would realize, "Wow, this one person is suddenly hostile to me for no reason, hmm."

That's not to say I think it's a good idea. I think it makes sense that there's bystander casualties in mass PvP, and I think the aggressors and victims should play out the consequences. Victims are within their right to be like, "Wow, you're a jerk, screw you," and hold a grudge to the end of their days or whatever. It makes sense that the wanton destruction of mass PvP has unintended consequences too.

Also I think that there's worse things to happen than to die in a video game, so I wouldn't be too concerned over bystander casualties on an OOC level - and this does seem like a change proposed entirely for that OOC reason/convenience. If you're worried about bystander casualties on an IC level, don't group hostile. Move locations. Play conflict out accordingly.

[AskRyze]

If your character is IC worried about killing a lot of people by accident in a fight, then why are you fighting in large crowds of bystanders?

Oh trust me, my PVP characters are almost unilaterally evil. They're not IC worried about killing bystanders. It's more that I'm getting a strong inclination from my talks with the DMs that they are really, really upset when the best way to do PVP on the server is to !-hostile everyone and some random idiots don't know better than to vacate the premises when they see two squads of warded up characters looking angry at each other from opposite sides of the hub. It's not the IC repercussions that anyone cares about - it's getting banned that people care about.

The reason I support this is not because of IC reasons. IC I shouldn't have to even hostile you to start throwing shit at you. IC the 'hostile' mechanic doesn't exist. OOC the GMs are pushing heavily toward punishing people who catch bystanders with AOE spells to the point of severe reprimands and warnings, so better hostiling mechanics would help push to prevent these problems from happening.

[RandomhouseAudio]

Flagging as hostile goes both ways, so I wouldn't exactly say it's metagaming. If it were used to find out who's in a party, that same party would realize, "Wow, this one person is suddenly hostile to me for no reason, hmm."

That's not to say I think it's a good idea. I think it makes sense that there's bystander casualties in mass PvP, and I think the aggressors and victims should play out the consequences. Victims are within their right to be like, "Wow, you're a jerk, screw you," and hold a grudge to the end of their days or whatever. It makes sense that the wanton destruction of mass PvP has unintended consequences too.

Also I think that there's worse things to happen than to die in a video game, so I wouldn't be too concerned over bystander casualties on an OOC level - and this does seem like a change proposed entirely for that OOC reason/convenience. If you're worried about bystander casualties on an IC level, don't group hostile. Move locations. Play conflict out accordingly.

The issue with this is that if any bystander does die even by accident, it's considered a breach of the rules and they can be punished OOCly for it.

Edit: I am somebody who died in the crossfire, and while I don't care because I know that my being there to watch a large fight means I might die due to a mishap or spells being thrown, the fact that it's against the rules and people can be punished, means that better tools need to be developed to help ensure as limited number of unintended casualties as possible.

My point is to try and create solutions for problems that I have seen existing, to hopefully make things smoother for the playerbase at large. I know some people hate PVP and think "Well just don't PVP" but it's a valid mechanic that belongs as a part of storytelling should it make sense for it to occur, so to just try and say "Change views on PVP" won't fix anything. It's here to stay folks.

[AskRyze]

Clipped

The issue with this is that if any bystander does die even by accident, it's considered a breach of the rules and they can be punished OOCly for it.

Exactly. It's technically a breach of PVP (because you didn't have interactive RP with -everyone- in the room), Potentially 24hour (Because you don't know if someone's in stealth or whatever you can't see them and they get caught in the crossfire), and Be Nice rules (Obvious reasons). These are readily punishable offenses. The easiest solution would be to have a hostile 'tool' that could be used to just fkey-click on opponents to hostile them, because sometimes it just takes too damn long to scroll through the player list and hostile people one by one - especially if the situation is very rapidly degrading. A 'hostile party' tool expedites that process even more quickly.

[TroubledWaters]

How is that possibly a breach of rules?

If you see a fight is brewing, and your IC action is to stand there and watch, then congrats you have RP'd an idiot and should be considered fair game for PvP.

If this actually does happen, it sounds like someone is reporting you out of bad faith or exploiting the PvP rules to troll you or OOC harass you.

Edit- And if someone is up in your character's space after they rez after you kill them in PvP, then from what I have seen, they would be in breach of the 24 hour rule before you are. They should not be trying to PvP you or follow you around in stealth until the time is up.

I know the feeling - sometimes it feels like the point of Arelith isn't to tell stories or have fun, it's to try and get players you don't like in trouble with the rules. I think you should call their bluff here and just play your character as it would react IC. If some collateral damage happens and someone tries to get you on a rulebreak, then there should be a conversation as to why their character was there to begin with.

And one more edit- Unless something's been changed, I don't believe you actually have to RP with ~everyone~ before PvP. You have to have meaningful interaction with the side you are attacking, whether that's just one person or their entire posse is somewhat up to you and up to the quality of your meaningful interaction. Otherwise, each stealthed character would have to unhide, say hello, run away, and then hide again to prepare and join the fray.

[RandomhouseAudio]

How is that possibly a breach of rules?

If you see a fight is brewing, and your IC action is to stand there and watch, then congrats you have RP'd an idiot and should be considered fair game for PvP.

If this actually does happen, it sounds like someone is reporting you out of bad faith or exploiting the PvP rules to troll you or OOC harass you.

Edit- And if someone is up in your character's space after they rez after you kill them in PvP, then from what I have seen, they would be in breach of the 24 hour rule before you are. They should not be trying to PvP you or follow you around in stealth until the time is up.

I know the feeling - sometimes it feels like the point of Arelith isn't to tell stories or have fun, it's to try and get players you don't like in trouble with the rules. I think you should call their bluff here and just play your character as it would react IC. If some collateral damage happens and someone tries to get you on a rulebreak, then there should be a conversation as to why their character was there to begin with.

And one more edit- Unless something's been changed, I don't believe you actually have to RP with ~everyone~ before PvP. You have to have meaningful interaction with the side you are attacking, whether that's just one person or their entire posse is somewhat up to you and up to the quality of your meaningful interaction. Otherwise, each stealthed character would have to unhide, say hello, run away, and then hide again to prepare and join the fray.

Can confirm that having discussed it with a DM that to have any innocents harmed at all is a breach of the PVP Rules which is where this stems from in the first place.

[Durvayas]

How is that possibly a breach of rules?

If you see a fight is brewing, and your IC action is to stand there and watch, then congrats you have RP'd an idiot and should be considered fair game for PvP.

If this actually does happen, it sounds like someone is reporting you out of bad faith or exploiting the PvP rules to troll you or OOC harass you.

Edit- And if someone is up in your character's space after they rez after you kill them in PvP, then from what I have seen, they would be in breach of the 24 hour rule before you are. They should not be trying to PvP you or follow you around in stealth until the time is up.

I know the feeling - sometimes it feels like the point of Arelith isn't to tell stories or have fun, it's to try and get players you don't like in trouble with the rules. I think you should call their bluff here and just play your character as it would react IC. If some collateral damage happens and someone tries to get you on a rulebreak, then there should be a conversation as to why their character was there to begin with.

And one more edit- Unless something's been changed, I don't believe you actually have to RP with ~everyone~ before PvP. You have to have meaningful interaction with the side you are attacking, whether that's just one person or their entire posse is somewhat up to you and up to the quality of your meaningful interaction. Otherwise, each stealthed character would have to unhide, say hello, run away, and then hide again to prepare and join the fray.

We all know what fight this thread is about, and I can tell you that there was zero time for people on one side of the building to get out before the hostile party rolled in, summons in tow, epic spells flying. The time between the warning shouts, Two of which the defending side didn't even hear and (none of which were even from the side that got attacked anyways) and combat was about 1.5 to 3 seconds.
Anyone who didn't see that group come in personally didn't have a chance to leave the area at all, which resulted in a number of 24 hour rule breaches as people who, per the rules, couldn't be involved, were stuck on a battlefield.

And Saying "Everyone leave the area now" and waiting all of 30 seconds at best before mashing the ! button is, frankly, cheese of the highest order. Thats not really interactive RP.

Whatever happened to armies lining up and the leaders talking shit before the fighting starts? This last battle actually made me long for the old Udos days, because at least then, the brawls had some leadup.

Edit for clarity:
Yes, my PC died as effectively a bystander in the battle. I'm not mad about one side losing or another side winning. Thats all IC. I WAS sorely dissapointed in the incredibly sloppy and shoddy way that the event in question went down. From my angle, RP and driving narrative did not seem to be a consideration whatsoever. The attacking side could have easily sent a runner, a projected image, an envoy, the options are endless, rather than a couple of shouts and a hasted charge.

A large scale battle is a thing of beauty. It should be executed with a degree of finesse and storytelling so its satisfying to both sides.

[RandomhouseAudio]

How is that possibly a breach of rules?

If you see a fight is brewing, and your IC action is to stand there and watch, then congrats you have RP'd an idiot and should be considered fair game for PvP.

If this actually does happen, it sounds like someone is reporting you out of bad faith or exploiting the PvP rules to troll you or OOC harass you.

Edit- And if someone is up in your character's space after they rez after you kill them in PvP, then from what I have seen, they would be in breach of the 24 hour rule before you are. They should not be trying to PvP you or follow you around in stealth until the time is up.

I know the feeling - sometimes it feels like the point of Arelith isn't to tell stories or have fun, it's to try and get players you don't like in trouble with the rules. I think you should call their bluff here and just play your character as it would react IC. If some collateral damage happens and someone tries to get you on a rulebreak, then there should be a conversation as to why their character was there to begin with.

And one more edit- Unless something's been changed, I don't believe you actually have to RP with ~everyone~ before PvP. You have to have meaningful interaction with the side you are attacking, whether that's just one person or their entire posse is somewhat up to you and up to the quality of your meaningful interaction. Otherwise, each stealthed character would have to unhide, say hello, run away, and then hide again to prepare and join the fray.

We all know what fight this thread is about, and I can tell you that there was zero time for people on one side of the building to get out before the hostile party rolled in, summons in tow, epic spells flying. The time between the warning shouts, Two of which the defending side didn't even hear and (none of which were even from the side that got attacked anyways) and combat was about 1.5 to 3 seconds.
Anyone who didn't see that group come in personally didn't have a chance to leave the area at all, which resulted in a number of 24 hour rule breaches as people who, per the rules, couldn't be involved, were stuck on a battlefield.

And Saying "Everyone leave the area now" and waiting all of 30 seconds at best before mashing the ! button is, frankly, cheese of the highest order. Thats not really interactive RP.

Whatever happened to armies lining up and the leaders talking shit before the fighting starts? This last battle actually made me long for the old Udos days, because at least then, the brawls had some leadup.

Please do not hijack this thread for your own purposes. This isn't feedback to complain about a happening. This is about finding solutions or ways to help these issues be resolved in the future and this isn't the time or place to get into this. If you aren't here to comment on the specific mechanic, then please, take it elsewhere.

I don't care.

[Durvayas]

Fine then. A tool to select specific people to target would be great without opening up the playerlist and going through three or four dozen names.

No, it shouldn't hostile entire parties, not just because you'll inevitably get RoE breaches when you hostile A and B's summons go after you, but because getting blindsided should be a thing, and you should not, through OOC means, be able to tell who is going to come to who's aid.

But really, people should simply not be using summons or mass AoEs in areas with lots of bystanders or merchant NPCs, period, end of story. Take it outside.

[AskRyze]

But really, people should simply not be using summons or mass AoEs in areas with lots of bystanders or merchant NPCs, period, end of story. Take it outside.

And I agree, people shouldn't stand next to them, fully warded, using them as meatshields. However these things happen, so using the utility would be a great boon.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Fine then. A tool to select specific people to target would be great without opening up the playerlist and going through three or four dozen names.

No, it shouldn't hostile entire parties, not just because you'll inevitably get RoE breaches when you hostile A and B's summons go after you, but because getting blindsided should be a thing, and you should not, through OOC means, be able to tell who is going to come to who's aid.

But really, people should simply not be using summons or mass AoEs in areas with lots of bystanders or merchant NPCs, period, end of story. Take it outside.

I agree with most of this sentiment, except for one part;

A very large number of AoE spells are "Party-friendly," but more importantly, some of them are "Hostile Only," which means that as a mage who utilizes AoE spells, your character knows they can throw those spells without causing collateral damage, but you the player can't hit any of your desired targets in that army until you either get close enough to hostile them all at once or individually hostile each one in the player menu.

Depending on the player population of the server during this mass PvP event (and during such things the populations frequently spike into the 70+ range), this can take MORE than long enough for trash-talking to happen and PvP commence AND you suddenly having someone swinging an IKD at you because you're still trying to hostile everyone on the other side (because they're players and not subject to the automatic red aura of NPC mobs that are trying to kill you).

I'm not about knowing about the sneaky reinforcements I shouldn't know about, but there are absolutely occasions (like the two armies lined up across from each other that you long for) where party-hostile would both make sense and facilitate a smoother, cleaner transition from RP to hostilities, with less potential mass-reporting happening as a simple result of bystanders and AoE effects, that may or may not have had an opportunity to vacate the scene depending on how the scene plays out.

Edit: Although another alternative would be to require any mass pvp to have a DM presence, and it could just become standard practice to pause while everyone sets hostiles. That's a lot less work, but it's also much more jarring (and comes with the prohibition of requiring an overseer) to the narrative.

Edit 2: It also might not be a terrible idea to suggest the stance that if someone is close enough to mass pvp that meets the interactive RP rules to be caught within the field of -! that there is no violation of PvP consent; two IC groups trying to kill each other should only be restricted by their IC morals, not the fear of OOC punishment because their AoE killed someone who got too close- and if you aren't participating, why would you stick around that close to a war zone?

[MissEvelyn]

But really, people should simply not be using summons or mass AoEs in areas with lots of bystanders or merchant NPCs, period, end of story. Take it outside.

And Saying "Everyone leave the area now" and waiting all of 30 seconds at best before mashing the ! button is, frankly, cheese of the highest order. Thats not really interactive RP.

Yikes, I often take a drink or go to the bathroom when I'm browsing a merchant, as there's no better place to take a break for a few minutes than with a merchant. Surely I'm not the only one.
If something like this happens at hubs that are centered around trade? Yeah, no, there's no way this is OK.

[Sockss]

I've never been in a situation in which I've killed someone accidentally.

Sounds like a case of you shouldn't be using aoe spells if you can't aim, or a a case of not being melee if you can't help right clicking and radial attacking a non hostile.

Or maybe not shooting up a server hub indiscriminantly with the tact of a dent-headed ogre.

You are responsible for the actions your character takes.

"/s get out or die" is not interactive roleplay.

There's nothing wrong with how hostiling works, there never has been in the past. Make no mistake the problem here is not lack of functions, but certain players themselves and a seemingly lax DM team post noxt.