God Economy (change godsaves, please)

[Red Ropes]

The piety changes have been an amazing thing for the server and I think its helping to make gods and piety gain to be a bit better.

However there is an issue currently where the 'godsaves' unique to aspects make particular deities better than others in a way that I feel sort of distracts from deities and their importance to players. Each aspect has a god-save, some duplicated like (nature, war) doing a PvE death save, trickery catching your disguise being broken, knowledge saving crafts, magic saving an enchanted item.

I do not think the 'god saves' should remain unique because as it stands most people try to take deities who have K&I, Magic, or both because these deities advantage everyone in a very important aspect of the server: crafting and enchanting. Everyone benefits from K&I, and magic only really advantages someone who is going to actually do enchanting. Sometimes this is temporary, but, I am aware that people plan their characters now around deities with those domains.

I think the game experience would be better improved and would instead make the aspects of deities less of a stranglehold if the "god saves" attached to deities were just shared by any deity and your piety gain was the only thing that had the variety. This would take away the "economic" aspect of your god and the mechanical aspect and would otherwise make the "piety gain" mini game the only thing that would matter.

It'd make enchanters and followers of all gods have the same weight and gravity they would be able to have. It doesn't really make sense when the followers of greater deities who are known to intercede in the realms because they can are essentially inferior to obscure demi-gods no one even remembers.

tl;dr

Make god saves universal regardless and detach them from aspects.

Make following a deity largely aesthetic (except in the instances of divine classes where it matters for the purposes of alignment grouping but otherwise is good).

[Dean]

I am getting tired of losing my crafted items because I roll a one and do not have a deity which is K&I. I lost an entire day of crafting points because I rolled a 1 on the next tier for the item. Please just combine them together.

[Sockss]

I agree.

Changing deities (Or just simply not mechanically following your deity because it has sucky aspects) is annoying and there's no reason for it.

I feel limiting aspects to just methods of piety gain gives them enough uniqueness; especially with the last piety updates to even out their respective gains.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I would really appreciate the system being updated so less mechanically optimal gods had a wider set of benefits. For example I'd love to do more enchanting, and it would be weird to just switch my deity to Azuth any time I wanted to do it.

To expand on Ropes' idea, could there be a way for players to select 2 aspects they would like boons for, rather than having the 2 aspects tied to the deities themselves? For example, I would like crafting and magic boons, so I could select that through the rest menu or something. But actual piety gain would be tied to the deity's aspects.

[Ork]

To expand on Ropes' idea, could there be a way for players to select 2 aspects they would like boons for, rather than having the 2 aspects tied to the deities themselves?

I genuinely love this idea. Choose at character creation.

[strong yeet]

I hate that a roleplaying choice (my guy's deity) is a mechanical one. It should not be this way, it makes no sense for it to be this way. It is easy to circumvent by either twisting my RP, or just selecting a deity that isn't really related to my RP at all since I'm the only one who can see it.

Why do I have to choose between RP consistency and mechanical... not power, but the ability to craft without having a 5% chance of losing (potentially, very rare, expensive or simply annoying) materials, or the ability to interact in any meaningful capacity with an enchanting basin?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I hate that a roleplaying choice (my guy's deity) is a mechanical one. It should not be this way, it makes no sense for it to be this way. It is easy to circumvent by either twisting my RP, or just selecting a deity that isn't really related to my RP at all since I'm the only one who can see it.

Why do I have to choose between RP consistency and mechanical... not power, but the ability to craft without having a 5% chance of losing (potentially, very rare, expensive or simply annoying) materials, or the ability to interact in any meaningful capacity with an enchanting basin?

Part of a character's mechanical power is their gear, and crafting is a mechanical power with dividends of its own. I wouldn't say it's correct to say that the ability to craft end-game gear with extra god-saveable chances isn't a power that should have its own trade-offs, and there are literally gods whose dominion over invention and knowledge makes sense for them to give you bonuses in those areas.

I mean, honestly? I'd be fine with it if it was changed and all gods could grant any boons, but I wouldn't say it makes sense for Talos, the god of destruction, to stop you from destroying an item you're crafting, either. If this is a desire for QoL improvement, call it that, but I feel the logic as to why certain boons are currently restricted to certain deities makes plenty of sense.

[Richørd]

I would disagree with this idea.

Changing all gods so their saves become identical would, on one side, "legitimize" even less popular gods.
The big downside? It would take the spice out of choosing some gods.

For example : I think it is fine for some gods being capable of saving you in the midst of combat. I can see Helm saving a devoted follower from death in exchange for some sweet, sweet piety-juice.

But why would Gond specifically be capable of doing that? If I, for example, create a craftsman PC that is dedicated to the Wondermaker and Father of Crafts I think it would be fair to expect getting a project, that'd fail otherwise, to be saved from a catastrophy (like rolling a nat 1).

In other words making all gods mechanically identical would just take away from characters uniqueness. If people choose specific gods for powerbuilding then that's that.
Maybe it's just further proof for why some gods are so popular in the FR setting? Tempus and Mystra for example have some of the biggest fanbases. Compare that to Lurue for example? No chance in hell she'd have the same power and fanbase as Tempus and Mystra.

Whatever. I'm starting to ramble.
TL;DR: I would vote no on making all gods mechanically identical.

[strong yeet]

I disagree, any amount of rhetoric can make this sort of thing applicable. Why wouldn't Talos help you godsave, say, a bomb? Or a weapon? Or X thing done in his name for the sake of destruction? You can apply this to any deity, it's an argument that doesn't hold any water under the slightest scrutiny.

It doesn't make sense for reasons outlined in RR's post that I thought I wouldn't have to repeat.

It doesn't really make sense when the followers of greater deities who are known to intercede in the realms because they can are essentially inferior to obscure demi-gods no one even remembers.

But I guess Red Knight makes more sense...

[Kuma]

I'm not the biggest supporter of this as an idea for reasons listed already, deities have spheres of influence, more or less, and should have some weight to them interceding in the realms. That being said I'd also not die on this hill, because as a QoL improvement, it's way up there and would be huge. That being said, I've a counter-suggestion, since honestly this is less about, say, piety acquisition or the self-res one, it's ONLY about the crafting ones.

With Dweomercraft replacing Enchantment, and theoretically being accessible by mundane characters without a single spell, it's weird to lock that in to Magic. And the K&I craft saving is honestly necessary on any character going to be doing any crafting of note. So I suggest, any character worshipping any god can trigger a Godsave on BOTH Dweomercraft and regular Crafting. However, triggering either one will lock out the other for the refresh period (so blowing it at the basin means you're at risk while making glass bottles until you've more piety, and the few hours pass).

Worshipping a deity with K&I or Magic basically gives you a second Godsave - so worshipping Gond means you can blow one at the basin and then another while crafting in the same window. Having a deity with both K&I and Magic maybe shouldn't stack these? Idk. But then you're left with one Aspect doing nothing. Not sure what to suggest here.

alternatively yeah just proliferate craftsaves

also pls change gond to k&i/magic

[CosmicOrderV]

I feel like the polytheistic system of choosing a deity to worship might fix this too.

[Vrass]

Bah enchanting and disguise saves are weak. The god-save on death has saved my a** on too many occasions to count and i would much rather have that even by itself then any other god-save.

[TimeAdept]

I freely admit I choose gods by if they have the crafting save. Single most important save in the server IMO. Any enchanting worth doing at high level is a non godsavable 5%, and the other saves are nice, but can alwyas be comboed with the all important crafting godsave.

[Richørd]

also pls change gond to k&i/magic

Oh hells no. Anything but magic.

[Seekeepeek]

I pick gods after their perks, and role play work shipping an other god. (not on divine classes thought)

since Forgotten realms is a place with Polytheism, i see no problem in this from a role play perspective.

kinda think it's silly that your forced to pick gods like this and i hated that aspect of the system since it was put in. lol

[Kuma]

also pls change gond to k&i/magic

Oh hells no. Anything but magic.

magic aspect power is saving improving items, but that's no longer "enchantment". gond would absolutely intercede to item improving in addition to crafting.

[Nitro]

I feel like the polytheistic system of choosing a deity to worship might fix this too.

Same. The only characters that should have to choose a single god should be clerics and paladins. Everyone else throws a prayer to the god that's got the portfolio of the thing that they're doing right now. (At least if they're smart, you'd have to be a special kind of dumb to go seafaring without giving some praise or sacrifice to umberlee first.)

[lakhena]

I think it's nice to have a crafting perk from selecting specific deities that fit your character. From an RP perspective, I don't see why should you should get a major perk for casual worship, even in a polytheistic system. If you want the perk, you should be working that deity's favor for it.

I'm also of the school that cleric domains should also align with the deity selected as well, but that's a whole different discussion.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I agree that it sucks that mechanics play a huge part in picking a deity, and while I think my roleplay justification for switching to Mystra when I decided to delevel and mangle my build to be a non caster enchanter makes total sense it does kind of suck that I was forced to do that, since investing that many feats/skillpoints into something only to be a shitty enchanter (the god saves are way too important in regards to enchanting more then anything else, really) would have been awful.

I also agree that its really cool for the gods to have unique benefits and would totally support the idea of domains being tied to deities, but that would just lead to more clerics of the gods that grant certain domains over others bringing us back to the same place.

In other words, I think this is a huge undertaking to fix and balance for the dev team, and probably should be something brought up once again once actual suggestions are open again.

[Skald Haldi]

I agree with Seekeepeek above. In a world where the gods grant you perks, it behooves you to pick a god that fits how you see yourself. For example, my current character probably should have been an Ilmatari because of the endurance theme, but she's a Tyrran instead because of her crafting focus. It's perfectly reasonable RP to pick a god that grants you perks that you think are important for your character.

In contrast, speaking of godsaves the Trickery domain is wonky. I chose trickery for my alt, who is always in disguise. As a result, my piety never rises above about 25%.

I'm not going to propose a fix - just that deity perks, especially the godsaves should be looked at again. Some are way too powerful, while others actually penalize you instead.

[MissEvelyn]

since Forgotten realms is a place with Polytheism, i see no problem in this from a role play perspective.

Absolutely agreed. I've played characters who were guardian type of knights of a temple (not paladin, mind you) without having the deity of that temple specifically selected.
Contrary to what seems popular on Arelith, gods in the Forgotten Realms are worshiped on a massive level. A small prayer to Lathander in the morning, a thank-you to Chauntea when you sit by the fire, an offering to Umberlee when you travel overseas, a tribute to Auril when winter comes, and so forth. Even evil-aligned gods get a prayer often when the need for it arises.

This is completely normal behavior within the Realms - by both evil and good characters - and therefore I really don't see a problem with choosing one god mechanically over another for its perks - as long as said chosen god is actually also on the list of gods that your character would be devoted to.

[Sea Shanties]

So what if piety was tracked separately with individual deities?

You had a patron as you do now, that doesn't change, but you could worship and donate gold at other temples to raise piety with that god as well (but, that's the only way to raise it if not your patron, not from crafting or fighting etc) and you'd be able to access that god's top tier ability, whether a god raise or crafting/enchantment save.

So in essence you could make a big gold sacrifice to a K&I deity or spend a long time praying before crafting something important even if your own deity doesn't have that aspect.

Not really a suggestion so don't take it as that just a thought of how polytheism might work.

[Red Ropes]

The reason why this is a problem, in my mind, is that it makes two categories of deities economic.

The bonuses of the other deities provide a great incentive to only follow those deities, especially as crafters. Not only does the current deity system basically ignore the vast portfolios of some deities who'd under the Arelith standard essentially be all of them; it just makes the deity system too relevant.

People who have K&I are better with crafts. They get a god save on each server and never have to worry about failing their greatest projects for craft.

People with magic get to make the absolutely best gear that one can make via the RGN. While not as guaranteed as the K&I godsave it significantly advantages everyone with it in that range. It lets people make very specific gear.

These are /not/ at the same parity as the other god-saves. Those only trigger in comparatively useless scenarios of PvE grindage or in a very niche cloak and dagger moment. K&I and Magic are /always/ useful for those people who have them.

I think there is merit to stripping 'godsaves' away from the aspects and instead leaving the aspects for piety gain. It means the deities remain diverse and in general will require specific ways of placation - but more accurately to the setting as a whole and towards a better "game" - the saves should be shared.

The gods in FR are very involved in their followers lives. I think any one god might preserve the crafts and creations of their followers, directly intercede to save them from harm both of body or in guile. I don't think they would be exclusive in any one way.

Cyric is just as likely to save his followers or imbue a creation with power as Gond is, more to the point.

[Xerah]

This is something that has been an interest for a while, it’s just a matter of deciding what that form looks like.

The general idea of only divine classes selecting a deity and the others getting aspect [somehow] is still something I want to think more on.