Gift of Unique Favor

[Aniel]

A quick review for what this gift does - some deities are subjected to racial restrictions. This means a character of the unspecified race is unable to mechanically select the deity to be the one their character worships. Gift of Unique Favor is a minor gift that can be selected only on character creation at the cost of +0.5 ECL to bypass this.

What the gift accomplishes: It's a safeguard against potential population floods of more bizarre race and deity combinations. It gives a mechanical incentive for players to opt to make characters that are more setting appropriate and subtly reminds players of the cool deities that are unlocked to them by their race choice.

What I believe to be detrimental side effects of this: Apart from being a 'gift tax' where a player must sacrifice some mechanical for the wider selection of more unusual deity options I find that this unnecessarily makes playing followers of those specific deities much more difficult as it closes off the amount of potential people you could sell what you preach to. Due to the mechanical power loss often times people only take the gift when they have a specific use for it in mind. These players, likely being adamantly sold on their concept are unlikely to ever use the gift elsewhere.

While there are plenty of characters who may be able to be sold onto a certain faith they're ultimately unable to because at the time of creation they opted for a little bit more mechanical power rather than choosing the ability to bypass these restrictions and take needless +ECL. What you're left with is something rather constricting where the only times you'll be able to interact with others who could share the faith is those of the same race (which may be a niche in of itself) who also chooses to follow the exact same deity as you? This I believe contributes to a feeling that anything pertaining to faith isn't interesting to RP with players who lack agency in any decision making that could come as a result of it due to lacking this gift.

Imagine trying to play a follower of Nathair Sgiathach or the Queen of Air and Darkness for instance. They both require you to be a fey, something that requires a 5% reward or to have taken this gift. Slim pickings for finding any that are capable of following those deities let alone players that can select them and also wish to play an actual follower of said deity.

I admit some bias here as I do play a character that would benefit from this being more opened up but I also wonder if that's not the first best. If inviting the possibility of religious conversion RP would make for a healthier environment or not concerning these racially restricted deities?

This has been a bit of spitballing. I'm interested in hearing anyone's thoughts on the gift and/or deity race restrictions.

[xanrael]

Only "divine" classes have to worry about the restriction. So a human fighter/WM/rogue could select Tiamat or Queen of Air and Darkness but a human cleric or blackguard would need the gift.

That does limit your ability to convert a "divine" build that wouldn't be true for a priest of Sune converting a CN/CG priest of Tempus but I don't think that's as important to allow, as "divine" classes converting at all is a major shift in character.

[Cortex]

This gift is outdated as hell, and is for the most part pointless since most people will pick one of the three or four K&I/Magic deities anyway. The restriction should honestly be removed or lowered to 0 cost.

[Mr_Rieper]

This gift is outdated as hell, and is for the most part pointless since most people will pick one of the three or four K&I/Magic deities anyway. The restriction should honestly be removed or lowered to 0 cost.

I feel this doesn't really make sense on an RP server.

[Red Ropes]

Unique favor shouldn't exist. In Forgotten Realms deities do NOT neglect followers even as racial deities. As weird as it might but it is not impossible for there to be clerics of them.

While certain aspects of a faith may be exclusive to one race (such as Lolth's major church sects who only indoctrinate, train drow) she also has aliases, aspects, and worship among other races.

They more recently removed racial restrictions of the heads of each major pantheon - but they probably should just get rid of it in general. If they want to police who / what should be clerics they should just put the class behind an RPR restriction with the idea someone would be more responsible with such a concept.

[Aniel]

Only "divine" classes have to worry about the restriction. So a human fighter/WM/rogue could select Tiamat or Queen of Air and Darkness but a human cleric or blackguard would need the gift

You're right, I'm not sure how I missed that. While I'm thankful that it's not as wide of a net as I initially believed it was it still looks to be more of an unnecessary restriction that due to the way of which it's implemented contributes to stifling potential story lines. In many ways it closes off possible paths of character progression before they've ever made the possibility of opening up.

If they want to police who / what should be clerics they should just put the class behind an RPR restriction with the idea someone would be more responsible with such a concept.

While I agree with the basis it's worth reminding that these racial restrictions apply to every divine class, not just cleric. Personally I don't like to see RPR locks on things however in this case it seems simply impractical as the effected class list is as follows: Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Druid, Divine Champion and Blackguards. That's quite a few to suddenly RPR gate out of the fear of a few players not representing their character's choice of faith very well. I have a feeling that it'd be easier to simply lift the requirement and allow reports for things that violate the setting's integrity to handle it as they always have.

[Kuma]

If they want to police who / what should be clerics they should just put the class behind an RPR restriction with the idea someone would be more responsible with such a concept.

While I agree with the basis it's worth reminding that these racial restrictions apply to every divine class, not just cleric. Personally I don't like to see RPR locks on things however in this case it seems simply impractical as the effected class list is as follows: Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Druid, Divine Champion and Blackguards. That's quite a few to suddenly RPR gate out of the fear of a few players not representing their character's choice of faith very well. I have a feeling that it'd be easier to simply lift the requirement and allow reports for things that violate the setting's integrity to handle it as they always have.

I think RR's comment was hyperbole to demonstrate a point that deities will absolutely give unorthodox followers spells in their (or a secret alias') names. Either open it up and police it sensibly (yes!), or gatekeep it and hold all clerics to some higher standard (silly). The current situation is weird in that it penalises your XP intake for a purely roleplay-related reason that doesn't impact mechanics whatsoever (unlike, say, RP oriented but useful perks like tongues or crafts).

tl;dr: i agree, pls open it up to a 0 Cost gift

[Aniel]

I'd prefer still seeing it removed as a gift and being made a baseline option as I'm not sure why the additional RP openings is a reason to not have more languages, more trade skill and crafting points or otherwise receiving a skill bonus. I'd extend this further to the consecrate altar gift and green finger but that's quite possibly an entirely different topic.

It just seems silly that due to the way the gift exists presently you can create a character who after thousands of hours of RP is being roadblocked by a gift selection choice that forces you to remake and sacrifice your minor gift or to otherwise strong arm a narrative due to mechanics preventing you from worshiping said deity.

[MissEvelyn]

Nothing is hindering anyone in worshiping these deities. Only divine classes are prohibited from picking them.

[magistrasa]

Sounds like... some people are hindered in worshipping these deities... Hm...

I agree with OP - the Gift of Unique Favor shouldn't exist. Or at the very least it shouldn't come at an ECL penalty when there's no mechanical benefit whatsoever. If it changed but stuck around in some form, I feel like this gift should be able to bypass alignment restrictions, and maybe people tagged with the gift are subject to a little extra DM scrutiny to make sure they aren't making a meme of themselves. But since the server seems to be moving away from making extra work for the DMs, I doubt that would ever happen.

I'd be curious to see how many people have even taken the Gift of Unique Favor, if we even have those numbers.

[Aniel]

Nothing is hindering anyone in worshiping these deities. Only divine classes are prohibited from picking them.

Are people hindered or are they not hindered? You've essentially written no and yes. The argument that I was presenting is that the gift is an unnecessary gift tax on creation for something that shouldn't exist I think.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Some races don't come with easy/any access in their pantheon to a crafting god. The gift of unique favor could, hypothetically say, be useful in curtailing a small horde of orcs and drow that might otherwise worship Corellon (if Corellon doesn't get magic here there's plenty of other deities that would still fit the example) for access to basin-saves, or Gond, or some other deity with enmity towards them.

There is pretty much always some sort of mechanical benefit based on your deity selection on Arelith- I feel it's appropriate that if you want a mechanical religious benefit normally restricted to your race that you pay something for it, and as far as costs go, at least a gift is "free."

[Cortex]

Drow(or any other evil) can just worship Bel or Shar if they want crafting/enchanting.

[Red Ropes]

Some races don't come with easy/any access in their pantheon to a crafting god. The gift of unique favor could, hypothetically say, be useful in curtailing a small horde of orcs and drow that might otherwise worship Corellon (if Corellon doesn't get magic here there's plenty of other deities that would still fit the example) for access to basin-saves, or Gond, or some other deity with enmity towards them.

There is pretty much always some sort of mechanical benefit based on your deity selection on Arelith- I feel it's appropriate that if you want a mechanical religious benefit normally restricted to your race that you pay something for it, and as far as costs go, at least a gift is "free."

but racial deities are not restricted in the realms - while its not common, it isn't prohibited or strange. All deities are locked in an off screen game of thrones regardless of their alignments. In the realms followers = power - this is why Lolth mantles as Moander to steal his elven, non-elven, and disgusting followers.

Ghaundaur is a member of the dark seldarine who doesn't believe in racial distinction and wants all races to turn into an ooze pile.

If a elven worshipper of the seldarine dies they become an elf in the afterlife. This also happens with every other racial pantheon.

its mentioned throughout the war and largely why the "Godswar" even happened because gods stopped caring about their followers and now they super-duper care. Its why some deities have even been propped up - had it not been for Eilistraee's non-drow followers she'd have probably faded out of existence.

conversely, the entire Faerunian pantheon is the HUMAN pantheon and while it is strange for deities of that pantheon to have non-human followers - some do! Some explicitly encourage it as well.

---
and also every pantheon has a crafting deity

every pantheon also has a magic deity
---

so if anything, if there is to be a restriction at all, it should only be based in RPR for clerics, paladins, and divine classes of racial gods because the concern would be "roleplay" and "tact" rather than mechanics. It would keep it uncommon but in the hands of people who are not going to make a half-orc cleric of corellon who goes around screaming about the elven masterrace and wearing hot pink.

right now only the heads of the racial pantheons were "deracialized", so all they have to do, if they want to, is unlock the other gods and the gift of unique favor can cease being a trap specifically for clerics, druids, (weirdly) blackguards, and paladins.

furthermore such a gift or status also doesn't even mean people have to accept it - being Grug of Sehanine does not mean elves have to go "oh wow hes a cleric of my god ".

its just got a weird hoop for people to jump through and should largely be left to RP to define it

[Aniel]

And if that's the way people feel then so be it - they could pick any of the deities that have those mixes that aren't racially restricted. If people care about mechanics then they won't care about pantheons. I don't believe the absolution of the gift effectively curtails it. People could still try to RP it anyways - in either case if it's being done in a poor manner then it results in a report for DMs to sort out, no?

Gifts aren't free either. They're a part of character building. It's an opportunity cost. To take Gift of Unique Favor you're choosing not to take other gifts which have a much more severe and direct gameplay impact such as +6 to a skill, more bonus languages or crafting prowess.

Furthermore the point above all else isn't a mechanical religious benefit. It's about freedom to RP without being impeded by odd systems that seem to stifle rather than promote.

[Beard Master Flex]

It should be removed.

That being said I RPd as a cleric of Oghma for a long time while my mechanical deity was Set or mystra or something for the enchanting save with 100% zero repercussions(this was also back in the day when he was a trickery deity!) No player can see what your deity is and the one time I was asked to consecrate an alter I just ate the 1000xp cost with no real issue.

So just RP whatever deity you want.

[Ork]

I personally dislike the deity system. Most lore will state that non-divine characters often favor a lot of gods, and will pay tribute or sacrifice offerings to even those well outside their alignment (notably how sailors will offer sacrifice to Umberlee before most voyages). How the deity system works on Arelith force players to make a choice, and suddenly that player feels the need to roleplay monotheism of that particular deity.

What might be more fun is having no set deities or removing the selection, and instead allow players to choose deities through tangible locations on the server: want to worship Umberlee? Make an offering to Umberlee near crow's nest and assume her aspect boons. Want to shift to Kossuth? Travel to Sibayad and make a burnt offering to assume his boons. The peity metric can stay the same, but remove the XP and piety cost of changing gods.

It should be fluid, and ever changing to suit the needs of the discerning Arelithian.

[SinsAndGods]

I've been told that the upper decision makers don't want to globalize how deities work, for some reason. No benefit to the current system as it only encourages not worshipping appropriate deities while roleplaying another.

[MissEvelyn]

I personally dislike the deity system. Most lore will state that non-divine characters often favor a lot of gods, and will pay tribute or sacrifice offerings to even those well outside their alignment (notably how sailors will offer sacrifice to Umberlee before most voyages). How the deity system works on Arelith force players to make a choice, and suddenly that player feels the need to roleplay monotheism of that particular deity.

What might be more fun is having no set deities or removing the selection, and instead allow players to choose deities through tangible locations on the server: want to worship Umberlee? Make an offering to Umberlee near crow's nest and assume her aspect boons. Want to shift to Kossuth? Travel to Sibayad and make a burnt offering to assume his boons. The peity metric can stay the same, but remove the XP and piety cost of changing gods.

It should be fluid, and ever changing to suit the needs of the discerning Arelithian.

I have to agree with this. The current system really does not make sense for the Forgotten Realms, which is a world where polytheism is common and expected. It seems to me that the system we have in place is meant to keep clerics and other divine classes in check with their deity, which is fine for them, but for the rest it makes no sense to have to choose one single deity.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I personally dislike the deity system. Most lore will state that non-divine characters often favor a lot of gods, and will pay tribute or sacrifice offerings to even those well outside their alignment (notably how sailors will offer sacrifice to Umberlee before most voyages). How the deity system works on Arelith force players to make a choice, and suddenly that player feels the need to roleplay monotheism of that particular deity.

What might be more fun is having no set deities or removing the selection, and instead allow players to choose deities through tangible locations on the server: want to worship Umberlee? Make an offering to Umberlee near crow's nest and assume her aspect boons. Want to shift to Kossuth? Travel to Sibayad and make a burnt offering to assume his boons. The peity metric can stay the same, but remove the XP and piety cost of changing gods.

It should be fluid, and ever changing to suit the needs of the discerning Arelithian.

Non-divine characters having access to temporal boons like Skyrim/Oblivion Blessings/Stones would be super fantastic and super on point.

Could tie it into the planar travel system in terms of what items for what offerings.

This could also piggyback on the Wayward Shrines already littered around the server.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

Working with the system as it is now:

Combine Gift of Unique Favor and Gift of Holy/Unholy = Gift of Divine Favor. Keep at .5 ECL or reduce to 0.

imo.

[Durvayas]

I think the devs have a lot of better/more important things to do with their time than futz around with a gift that really mostly only affects clerics and characters being roledplayed as 'favored souls' in any impactful mechanical way.

People are going to continue picking one thing mechanically and RP worshipping another. Its how we've dealt with this for a decade.

If something must be done, let us pick two deities for our PC to worship, a primary and secondary. Halve the benefits of the secondary. Boom, polytheism.

[Kuma]

I think the devs have a lot of better/more important things to do with their time than futz around with a gift that really mostly only affects clerics and characters being roledplayed as 'favored souls' in any impactful mechanical way.

I will eat my shoes if combining two gifts - that is to say, the code for both of these functions already exists - into one and adjusting its ECL is considered time-consuming to a point where it warrants this kind of bizarreoworld white-knighting. There's a feedback forum for a reason.

[Durvayas]

I think the devs have a lot of better/more important things to do with their time than futz around with a gift that really mostly only affects clerics and characters being roledplayed as 'favored souls' in any impactful mechanical way.

I will eat my shoes if combining two gifts - that is to say, the code for both of these functions already exists - into one and adjusting its ECL is considered time-consuming to a point where it warrants this kind of bizarreoworld white-knighting. There's a feedback forum for a reason.

Actually combining the script is not likely the time consuming part.
Writing code so that it is detected on PCs, and retroactively fixes all created PCs by going into their widget to rewrite the gift, WITHOUT breaking things horribly, is the time consuming part. This then needs to be bug tested, because the gift system is integral to what makes arelith arelith. A bug on a path is not a big deal. Somehow breaking the gift system with a change would bug, at best, everyone with the GoUF and GoH/U, at worst it would bug everyone.

Applying a fix for future PCs and grandfathering old PCs with the old would be the only easy, not time consuming option. And also the one with the least risk.

As to the assertion I'm whiteknighting, piss off. This is a feedback thread. My feedback is that the number of people affected is so niche that it isn't worth much of any investment of time. I can think of dozens, maybe hundreds of other fixes that I'd consider well above the priority I'd place on this.

[Cortex]

dude its a 10 minutes thing at most for an unexperienced coder