Let's all take a moment to be grateful for what we have and remember to treat people with respect, even if we disagree or frankly don't like them.
Game on
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
Moderators: Active DMs, Forum Moderators, Contributors
I appreciate you chiming in and I agree in principle, but I don't want to vilify or alienate anyone who was "being toxic" as vile people. We all have our moments and bad days. Let's just recognize this, and work on it. And that requires that we also be forgiving and accepting when people aren't there bestMissEvelyn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:21 amI wholeheartedly agree, and also with Twily's post (and edit as well)
It's sad that it's come to something as basic as common decency and respect apparently lacking from some people who are dissatisfied. Imagine acting in such a way at your workplace. It's childish and immature, frankly, and it has no place in our community.
Arelith is a place where we get to play for free because there are some people who are dedicating their time and energy to it. Some individuals may not like the direction Arelith is going, which happens, and that's okay. What's not okay is the kind of toxic behavior Spyre and no doubt others have experienced from these vile people.
There's plenty of reasons to be grateful for what we have, so let's do that, and let's cherish the people who are voluntarily working hard and taking time out of our day just so we can have an enjoyable place to be on.
While I under normal and milder circumstances would agree, telling someone they should end their own life is not simply a 'bad day'. That is toxic and vile beyond a doubt. And nothing short of a personal and sincere apology from the offender can even begin to rectify that.Jordenk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:39 amI appreciate you chiming in and I agree in principle, but I don't want to vilify or alienate anyone who was "being toxic" as vile people. We all have our moments and bad days. Let's just recognize this, and work on it. And that requires that we also be forgiving and accepting when people aren't there best
Fair.. that is some dark sh**MissEvelyn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:49 amWhile I under normal and milder circumstances would agree, telling someone they should end their own life is not simply a 'bad day'. That is toxic and vile beyond a doubt. And nothing short of a personal and sincere apology from the offender can even begin to rectify that.Jordenk wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:39 amI appreciate you chiming in and I agree in principle, but I don't want to vilify or alienate anyone who was "being toxic" as vile people. We all have our moments and bad days. Let's just recognize this, and work on it. And that requires that we also be forgiving and accepting when people aren't there best
I really just want to echo this statement.Twily wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:09 amI second this.
This isn't the first time a developer has been burned out of building and supporting the server due to the hurtful comments players have made.
My statement to players saying these things is this:
Do you like Arelith existing?
If so, please just stop.
If not, please just leave and move on with your life.
One of these days there won't be someone who's willing to step up and fill the void that shows up with a dev steps down.
This will be especially true if people aren't treated with more respect than they have been shown in the past(both recent and distant).
Even this is disregarding the emotional toil it takes on the recipients of the abuse, which shouldn't be dismissed.
There's no shortage of reasons as to why you shouldn't behave crassly, regardless of whether it's for your own good or others; please just stop, you have no reason to continue it.
I agree with the sentiments here, but, I'm going to be that guy, and ask- no names necessary- were the people who uttered such sentiments as go kill yourself banned? If not, why?DM GrumpyCat wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:48 pmI really just want to echo this statement.Twily wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:09 amI second this.
This isn't the first time a developer has been burned out of building and supporting the server due to the hurtful comments players have made.
My statement to players saying these things is this:
Do you like Arelith existing?
If so, please just stop.
If not, please just leave and move on with your life.
One of these days there won't be someone who's willing to step up and fill the void that shows up with a dev steps down.
This will be especially true if people aren't treated with more respect than they have been shown in the past(both recent and distant).
Even this is disregarding the emotional toil it takes on the recipients of the abuse, which shouldn't be dismissed.
There's no shortage of reasons as to why you shouldn't behave crassly, regardless of whether it's for your own good or others; please just stop, you have no reason to continue it.
Whilst by feedback and second opinion and dialogue is welcome, viterol, hatred and entitlement is not.
Ultimatly - those who think that by bullying, and theatening the staff, they'll get what they want are likely wrong. I'd encourage them instead to seek out other servers, or start their own! All they accomplish otherwise is upsetting people who give a lot of free time to trying to make the server awsome. And, eventually, maybe even making the server unrunnable.
And if -that- is what they want, then I think frankly they're pretty poor people.
I understand the sentiment here, but I'd like to echo miss Evelyn's. At least in this circumstance, we're aren't talking about someone emotionally arguing their side of things, we're talking about someone getting emotional and using it to justify saying hurtful things that can have very real consequences, historically.Irongron wrote: ↑Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:44 pm
Those that bully, often do not realise they are doing so. Being critical of volunteers can be framed as 'speaking truth to power', without a thought of the people behind the screen, equally those that form elitist cliques in game, and seek to push others out, can often feel they are acting based upon sound justification.
Subjectivity, in short, is something we often cannot perceive until it is pointed out to us. As DMs/Staff we often have to deal with very bitter disuptes between players and factions, and it is generally the case that in the worse of these each side is so far down their respective rabbit hole that they do not, for a moment, see the perspective of those on the other side, truly feeling that these actions place a person beneath contempt, and that they themselves are the victims.
I was drawing an analogy. My point is that it shouldn't get that extreme in the first place, and the fact that no one actually tried to kill anyone doesn't make it a witch hunt- the behavior is still entirely reprehensible. If attempted murder is the actual requirement for banning, then there's a long list of players to unban.
I don't know about Spyre's specific case. That's up to him to report. I can only hazard a guess that said people were already banned from the server, and voicing their displeasure at their banning to Spyre in such a way.I agree with the sentiments here, but, I'm going to be that guy, and ask- no names necessary- were the people who uttered such sentiments as go kill yourself banned? If not, why?
A healthy roleplaying environment needs conflict. The conflict can be against non-player monsters, but then you'd need a -very- active DM team that keeps those stories going at all times, since players wouldn't be able to develop them on their own. I think -most- players are perfectly able to keep IC and OOC separate - most seem to play surface characters along with their UD ones, too, and enjoy both settings.Invader_Nym wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:35 amA big problem nobody wants to talk about is that the nature of the campaign setting pits players against eachother. The game features a myriad of factions that are diametrically opposed to one another, essentially requiring that the players' characters hate eachother.
As long as we have diametrically opposed alignments and factions, we're going to have conflict. We can all say "let's keep IC and OOC separate," but we aren't robots that can perfectly compartmentalize and hermetically seal up our emotions, and while it sounds good in theory that we all draw a hard line between IC and OOC, theory and practice rarely align, and when they don't align, it usually means you have a junk theory.
I also think that the game, partly due to the nature of 3rd edition D&D, is really poorly balanced, and that's going to appeal to players that like to vie for power and lord it over others.
I agree with Aurian here.Aurian wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:07 amA healthy roleplaying environment needs conflict. The conflict can be against non-player monsters, but then you'd need a -very- active DM team that keeps those stories going at all times, since players wouldn't be able to develop them on their own. I think -most- players are perfectly able to keep IC and OOC separate - most seem to play surface characters along with their UD ones, too, and enjoy both settings.Invader_Nym wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:35 amA big problem nobody wants to talk about is that the nature of the campaign setting pits players against eachother. The game features a myriad of factions that are diametrically opposed to one another, essentially requiring that the players' characters hate eachother.
As long as we have diametrically opposed alignments and factions, we're going to have conflict. We can all say "let's keep IC and OOC separate," but we aren't robots that can perfectly compartmentalize and hermetically seal up our emotions, and while it sounds good in theory that we all draw a hard line between IC and OOC, theory and practice rarely align, and when they don't align, it usually means you have a junk theory.
I also think that the game, partly due to the nature of 3rd edition D&D, is really poorly balanced, and that's going to appeal to players that like to vie for power and lord it over others.
But at the end of the day, some players will be at each other's throats no matter what you do - just look at World of Warcraft. They're going to bash each other's heads in over loot, over perceived insults, over jealousy and a plethora of other reasons. That's on the players, not the game, and there's nothing you can do to keep them out of the world you created.
On topic ... I never interacted with Spyre, but I wish I'd gotten the chance and wish him all the best. Life is important, family is important - take the time off you need, and maybe someday return as a player. <3
I think there's adequate room for conflict in the human psyche without the need to codify it with imaginary designations like alignment, and without creating two distinct teams (team UD vs team Surfacer) and pitting them against each other.I agree with Aurian here.
Ultimately we NEED character conflict. Character conflict provides fun and interesting stories for when DMs arn't around. Honestly some of the best stories I've been part of, player side, were down to character conflict!
What the server needs isn't to remove all Character Conflict, but rather for players to play with a ethos of good sportsmanship.
Also Nevrus's post is a thing of beauty and I adore it.
I personally enjoy the lore-appropriate 'team conflict' of UD versus Surface, and I'm sure many others do as well. Back when Everquest (1) was still a thing, I had characters on a purely PvE server, but enjoyed the racial team PvP server the most. I'll never forget the kind high level trolls who came sit on the newbie log to protect new dark elf characters against human and elf attacks. If it bothers you so much, why would you choose to play here instead of another PW that pits all of its players against NPC monsters? Let people have their fun. Asking for a change to something others enjoy isn't exactly 'playing nice', either. Live and let live. Different environments cater to people with different tastes.Invader_Nym wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:24 pmI think there's adequate room for conflict in the human psyche without the need to codify it with imaginary designations like alignment, and without creating two distinct teams (team UD vs team Surfacer) and pitting them against each other.
The kind of conflict we need is conflict of the interpersonal kind, not of the "I can tell after 10 seconds of dealing with you that you are different than me and I have a dogma that says that's sufficient for me to kill you" kind.
Interpersonal conflict is real human conflict, the latter kind reduces our fellow players to pre-defined NPCs that we have a license to kill.
'Be nice' has been a rule forever, and the evidence suggests that it's insufficient as a compelling force given the behavior of the players and the recent staff resignations.