On Uncanny Dodge

[Quidix]

I’m a fan of dexterity builds, but I find the the need for uncanny dodge to unnecessarily restrict build diversity. For example, I'd love to see dexterity bards, dexterity fighter and others.

The logic of the current implementation of uncanny dodge does not make sense to me. For example, why do warlocks and spellswords receive the feat, but not harpers, bards or fighters? Why does a monk need to reach level 12 to get the feat? (no other class require such a heavy investment before receiving it, despite monks intuitively being a class where it would make sense to grant it early)

Possible solutions could be making it a perk of reaching a high dexterity (24+), allowing it to be chosen as generic feat, creating an item such as ‘Boots of Uncanny Dodge’, or at least opening it to more classes.

What do you think? Is there any harm in opening up uncanny dodge further?

[Twily]

If i had to guess why monks don't get it until L12, it'd be due to balance.

Monk is one of the classes that can aid a build immensely for just a few levels, since it gives access to both Tumble and Discipline, potentially a huge AC boost if the character has wisdom, Knockdown/ImpKnockdown at L6, every save as a primary save, Monk UBAB, really strong specialty gear, etc.

Thematically they'd get it at L1-3 like every other class does, but that would only further strengthen monk dips, which are already very strong as is.

[Mattamue]

Spellsword get uncanny!?

[Might-N-Magic]

Spellswords and warlocks getting it makes zero sense...

[BoredGM]

I've barely skimmed the forums and have already seen a lot of focus on uncanny dodge. Generally in my experience uncanny dodge isn't really worth that much since being flat footed means one also loses their dodge and tumble bonuses. This would mean a potential loss of up to 28 AC, without regarding the dex mod.
Given that, is uncanny dodge worth it on this server? Why?

[Nitro]

I've barely skimmed the forums and have already seen a lot of focus on uncanny dodge. Generally in my experience uncanny dodge isn't really worth that much since being flat footed means one also loses their dodge and tumble bonuses. This would mean a potential loss of up to 28 AC, without regarding the dex mod.
Given that, is uncanny dodge worth it on this server? Why?

For a DEX build, absolutely. Losing anywhere between 8-14 extra AC because you don't have it is a hard blow. If anything, the fact that you've lost your tumble and dodge AC just makes those 8-14 points worth even more because it might be the difference between two attacks in a round hitting you and 4 attacks in a round hitting you.

[BoredGM]

For a DEX build, absolutely. Losing anywhere between 8-14 extra AC because you don't have it is a hard blow. If anything, the fact that you've lost your tumble and dodge AC just makes those 8-14 points worth even more because it might be the difference between two attacks in a round hitting you and 4 attacks in a round hitting you.

Ah but only when the attack values under consideration are of that nature. If the loss is a total of 26 or so and the attack values are meant or are designed to surpass the highest of AC builds, then we have something like full bab down to -15. Thus, with the full loss of even 26 AC, it almost becomes meaningless normally.
Would it be useful PvE? How about PvP?

[Biolab00]

For a DEX build, absolutely. Losing anywhere between 8-14 extra AC because you don't have it is a hard blow. If anything, the fact that you've lost your tumble and dodge AC just makes those 8-14 points worth even more because it might be the difference between two attacks in a round hitting you and 4 attacks in a round hitting you.

Ah but only when the attack values under consideration are of that nature. If the loss is a total of 26 or so and the attack values are meant or are designed to surpass the highest of AC builds, then we have something like full bab down to -15. Thus, with the full loss of even 26 AC, it almost becomes meaningless normally.
Would it be useful PvE? How about PvP?

I'm not sure if it's because my english standard is poor because i've no idea what you're saying here.
I have no idea what it meant that there is something like full bab down to -15 because to my understanding of NWN, BAB is simply categorized to -
1) Fighter / Paladin / Barbarian / Ranger / certain prestige classes 20BAB
2) Rogue / Bard / Monk / Cleric / Druid / Certain prestige classes 15BAB
3) Wizard / Sorcerer / certain prestige classes 10BAB
And every 2 levels of odd or even epic level [ I can't remember clearly ] + 1 BAB to a total of +5BAB for level 30 PC.

So... where does the down to -15 BAB comes from...?
Assuming if you meant to curse / debuff the PC to do so... generally, to get you flat-footed means that you're not aware that you've been attacked. It's always opponent FULL AB vs your lowest AC.

Maybe i have got something wrong somewhere?

[Nitro]

For a DEX build, absolutely. Losing anywhere between 8-14 extra AC because you don't have it is a hard blow. If anything, the fact that you've lost your tumble and dodge AC just makes those 8-14 points worth even more because it might be the difference between two attacks in a round hitting you and 4 attacks in a round hitting you.

Ah but only when the attack values under consideration are of that nature. If the loss is a total of 26 or so and the attack values are meant or are designed to surpass the highest of AC builds, then we have something like full bab down to -15. Thus, with the full loss of even 26 AC, it almost becomes meaningless normally.
Would it be useful PvE? How about PvP?

Your 26 AC seems largely academical, because I don't think there's any build on Arelith that can actually hit the 20 dodge AC cap, most will probably cap out at 5-10.

[JustMonika]

For a DEX build, absolutely. Losing anywhere between 8-14 extra AC because you don't have it is a hard blow. If anything, the fact that you've lost your tumble and dodge AC just makes those 8-14 points worth even more because it might be the difference between two attacks in a round hitting you and 4 attacks in a round hitting you.

Ah but only when the attack values under consideration are of that nature. If the loss is a total of 26 or so and the attack values are meant or are designed to surpass the highest of AC builds, then we have something like full bab down to -15. Thus, with the full loss of even 26 AC, it almost becomes meaningless normally.
Would it be useful PvE? How about PvP?

Your 26 AC seems largely academical, because I don't think there's any build on Arelith that can actually hit the 20 dodge AC cap, most will probably cap out at 5-10.

I mean, 32 Tumble is 8 Dodge.
+ Boots. Plus Dodge.
That's already ten, and I'm not even trying.
Divine shield, anyone?

[BoredGM]

Thank you for saying that most cap out at 5-10. I am new to the server so I don't know. If it hasn't been changed perhaps bard song will play a significant role in such considerations. I wanted to test the waters since it seems like in a build focused on PvP people might be considering squeezing for every possible AB boost they can get, and your opponents would of course be builds like your own and would have significant AB.
However, I have seen boss monsters with really high AB as well.

What I meant by the bab -15 was the regular nwn attack progression, as on the wiki entry for Base Attack Bonus. +20/+15/+10/+5, for a fighter of level 20. This means a fighter would get regularly 4 attacks per round, one each at those attack bonus values.
Anyway, I think clearly it would all be dependent on the dodge armor lost in many cases. Perhaps you can dodge the 3rd of 4th if you consider the loss of 10 dodge armor. But I just wanted to point that out here about uncanny dodge. In general, you still want to be not flat footed.

And to JustMonika who submitted right before me . Tumble is separate than dodge iirc.

[AstralUniverse]

32 Tumble is 8 Dodge

tumble ac is every 5 ranks. so +6 ac at lvl 27. 30 is the max rank you need for ac. What you lose when you're flat footed is that 6, plus any other dodge bonuses like boots and mage armor, and divine shield, and bard song. so divine bards are the only ones really touching the +20 cap. everyone else get around 8-9. Its a lot to lose, now imagine you lose 13-14 (dex mod) on top of your dodge ac if you dont have uncanny dodge. It's essential to any dex based build.

[Invader_Nym]

I abhor uncanny dodge and weapon finesse. In my view 5th edition got it right when they got rid of both. If we need to buy a feat to use our dexterity for AB, why shouldn't we need to buy a feat to use our strength for AB? In fact, if you think about it, it seems like a lot more of a feat to somehow make your strength useful for landing a hit than it does to make your dexterity useful for landing a hit.

[Quidix]

I abhor uncanny dodge and weapon finesse. In my view 5th edition got it right when they got rid of both. If we need to buy a feat to use our dexterity for AB, why shouldn't we need to buy a feat to use our strength for AB? In fact, if you think about it, it seems like a lot more of a feat to somehow make your strength useful for landing a hit than it does to make your dexterity useful for landing a hit.

This is pretty much exactly my sentiment too. I just seems to rig the systems against dexterity builds, or at least greatly limit the options available to them.

[MissEvelyn]

I abhor uncanny dodge and weapon finesse. In my view 5th edition got it right when they got rid of both. If we need to buy a feat to use our dexterity for AB, why shouldn't we need to buy a feat to use our strength for AB? In fact, if you think about it, it seems like a lot more of a feat to somehow make your strength useful for landing a hit than it does to make your dexterity useful for landing a hit.

This. And the truth is plainly that Strength builds are superior to Dexterity builds in 3.5 / NWN in so many ways. Epic Dodge is the only benefit Dexers get to enjoy, and that doesn't come until the epics and it's already a heavy investment to get there.

I quite like the idea of heavy Dexterity characters getting Uncanny Dodge for free. It would help Dexterity builds a lot, without being overpowered. Strength will always be better than Dexterity, but at least it would help on it.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I disagree with the overall mentality of this thread- but because this is a 3.5 game, not a 5th edition game.

5th edition #'s are balanced very differently from 3/3.5. In fact, the highest AC total you're ever going to see from a level 20 character solo without help from another character is 49.

3.0/3.5 you have individual characters who can reach much higher than that without assistance, and MOST of the highest defense characters use dexterity as a main stat late game. The feats don't exist in 5th edition because Dexterity isn't already that much better - in 3.0/3.5, it is, and you should need finesse and uncanny to make it that much better, IMO.

Then again, three levels of rogue gives you both for free here, so I'm not really sure what the actual complaint is- do we not think fighters with +15 str mods should be flat-footed opening round? Why not?

[Anomandaris]

I disagree with the overall mentality of this thread- but because this is a 3.5 game, not a 5th edition game.

5th edition #'s are balanced very differently from 3/3.5. In fact, the highest AC total you're ever going to see from a level 20 character solo without help from another character is 49.

3.0/3.5 you have individual characters who can reach much higher than that without assistance, and MOST of the highest defense characters use dexterity as a main stat late game. The feats don't exist in 5th edition because Dexterity isn't already that much better - in 3.0/3.5, it is, and you should need finesse and uncanny to make it that much better, IMO.

Then again, three levels of rogue gives you both for free here, so I'm not really sure what the actual complaint is- do we not think fighters with +15 str mods should be flat-footed opening round? Why not?

Wait, are people really saying dex builds are somehow hamstrug? This is news to me... Blinding Speed, Epic dodge, higher AC and ways to round out the dmg (sneaks, essences etc).

I play a dex based melee char and I am not complaining one iota over my comparative mechanical power.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I disagree with the overall mentality of this thread- but because this is a 3.5 game, not a 5th edition game.

5th edition #'s are balanced very differently from 3/3.5. In fact, the highest AC total you're ever going to see from a level 20 character solo without help from another character is 49.

3.0/3.5 you have individual characters who can reach much higher than that without assistance, and MOST of the highest defense characters use dexterity as a main stat late game. The feats don't exist in 5th edition because Dexterity isn't already that much better - in 3.0/3.5, it is, and you should need finesse and uncanny to make it that much better, IMO.

Then again, three levels of rogue gives you both for free here, so I'm not really sure what the actual complaint is- do we not think fighters with +15 str mods should be flat-footed opening round? Why not?

Wait, are people really saying dex builds are somehow hamstrug? This is news to me... Blinding Speed, Epic dodge, higher AC and ways to round out the dmg (sneaks, essences etc).

I play a dex based melee char and I am not complaining one iota over my comparative mechanical power.

It's because classes you think would traditionally be better dex based are actaully str based on arelith. Melee rangers and bards for example are optimally built str based. And dex fightee should be an option.

Though ill just point out that dex weaponmaster is a thing. Just being a pure dex fighter is a bad idea. Rogue/fighter combo fills niche of a dex fighter though, including being able to turn a masterly damask rapier plus 5 weapon. Giving pure fighters uncanny dodge would be fine but would be a trap. You really ought to be using rogue lvls for high max dex ac and getting epic dodge. (They should make monks get uncanny dodge at 8 though)

[Anomandaris]

I disagree with the overall mentality of this thread- but because this is a 3.5 game, not a 5th edition game.

5th edition #'s are balanced very differently from 3/3.5. In fact, the highest AC total you're ever going to see from a level 20 character solo without help from another character is 49.

3.0/3.5 you have individual characters who can reach much higher than that without assistance, and MOST of the highest defense characters use dexterity as a main stat late game. The feats don't exist in 5th edition because Dexterity isn't already that much better - in 3.0/3.5, it is, and you should need finesse and uncanny to make it that much better, IMO.

Then again, three levels of rogue gives you both for free here, so I'm not really sure what the actual complaint is- do we not think fighters with +15 str mods should be flat-footed opening round? Why not?

Wait, are people really saying dex builds are somehow hamstrug? This is news to me... Blinding Speed, Epic dodge, higher AC and ways to round out the dmg (sneaks, essences etc).

I play a dex based melee char and I am not complaining one iota over my comparative mechanical power.

It's because classes you think would traditionally be better dex based are actaully str based on arelith. Melee rangers and bards for example are optimally built str based. And dex fightee should be an option.

Though ill just point out that dex weaponmaster is a thing. Just being a pure dex fighter is a bad idea. Rogue/fighter combo fills niche of a dex fighter though, including being able to turn a masterly damask rapier plus 5 weapon. Giving pure fighters uncanny dodge would be fine but would be a trap. You really ought to be using rogue lvls for high max dex ac and getting epic dodge. (They should make monks get uncanny dodge at 8 though)

I mean, dual wielding dex ranger with a monk dip is super deadly.

Dex giving hide/ms, AB, AC and reflex while Str giving disc, Dmg, carry capacity and AB seems balanced. That ranger has natural HIPs so going dex makes a lot sense, the str build will struggle to get to 100+hide/ms.

The only thing I miss not being a str fighter is not being able to carry anything lol. Though to be fair if you want dec damage sneaks are usually a must. But AC and cross classing monk makes it very formidable, in the SS and Ranger example.

[Quidix]

I mean, dual wielding dex ranger with a monk dip is super deadly.

That's really not a good example though as ranger is one of the classes that already get uncanny dodge. This topic is explicitly about those classes that don't get it.

Even if you were right, this is one example of a common dex build. Let's see the total stats for main stat - I'm pretty sure it is 80%+ str among melee characters. Beyond that, it also speaks more of the power of rangers and monks in general, than it does of the role of uncanny dodge, the latter which it the topic for debate.

To be clear, this is not a rally for a massive boon to all dex builds, it's providing a basic enabler (without a dex character cannot really function well) more broadly to open up more concepts.

What should be discussed is, for example: why a bard can't get uncanny dodge?

[Anomandaris]

I mean, dual wielding dex ranger with a monk dip is super deadly.

That's really not a good example though as ranger is one of the classes that already get uncanny dodge. This topic is explicitly about those classes that don't get it. Even if you were right, this is one example of a common dex build. Let's see the total stats for main stat - I'm pretty sure it is 80%+ str among melee characters.

To be clear, this is not a rally for a massive boon to all dex builds, it's providing a basic enabler (without a dex character cannot really function well) more broadly to open up more concepts.

What should be discussed is, for example: why a bard can't get uncanny dodge?

Ah I see, I just brought it up because someone said Str Ranger was the default choice.

I don't know bard class super well but isn't it pretty well balanced in other ways as a support class? With IE, bard song, a BG/Pally dip and maybe SD, a 22/3/5 Dex build would be pretty hard to pin down. Skillpoints and feats enough to drop into discipline, hide, ms etc. I don't see this build "killing" much, but very dangerous and survivable support?

[Quidix]

I mean, dual wielding dex ranger with a monk dip is super deadly.

That's really not a good example though as ranger is one of the classes that already get uncanny dodge. This topic is explicitly about those classes that don't get it. Even if you were right, this is one example of a common dex build. Let's see the total stats for main stat - I'm pretty sure it is 80%+ str among melee characters.

To be clear, this is not a rally for a massive boon to all dex builds, it's providing a basic enabler (without a dex character cannot really function well) more broadly to open up more concepts.

What should be discussed is, for example: why a bard can't get uncanny dodge?

Ah I see, I just brought it up because someone said Str Ranger was the default choice.

I don't know bard class super well but isn't it pretty well balanced in other ways as a support class? With IE, bard song, a BG/Pally dip and maybe SD, a 22/3/5 Dex build would be pretty hard to pin down. Skillpoints and feats enough to drop into discipline, hide, ms etc. I don't see this build "killing" much, but very dangerous and survivable support?

Great example - but a strength bard is (much) stronger still. How do I know that? The build you suggested already gets uncanny dodge through SD, and it's an extremely rare build today because it's just not that strong vs strength builds (fitting in dual wield and divines on a bard is also hard). This change would open options.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

We might as well give everyoneuncanny dodge for everyone since we all can somehow have improved combat expertise × shield ac while flat footed.