True Flame and RP

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

@ Kenji- that's not how chain lightning works. The main target takes full damage, every other target takes half that. It doesn't continue to decrease for each additional target- you can test by casting a maximized version. First target will take 120 on a failed save, every other target will take 60 on the failed save. Half again on a successful save.

[Kenji]

I stand corrected, it's still not as potent as maximized ball lightning for that matter. It's something I stopped using a long while ago upon finding that its damage potential isn't as great.

[Nitro]

Also the bigby KD isn't 1 round, it's rounds/level and a disgustingly strong source of CC.

And I can assure you I've leveled several trueflames to the highest level. I said that using ONLY IGMS and Firebrand is a trap, I specifically mentioned in my post that they're useful spells, but hardly the end all. Used tactically, a large portion of the 4th level upwards spells have their own niches in different situations, while IGMS and Firebrand are the mainstay.

[Kenji]

Fair enough. To clarify, I didn't say the KD from Bigby's only lasts one round, but it takes one round to cast it. Half of the round if it is quickened or hasted. Mostly the rant was about action economy and written in haste. The clarity of the posts is sacrificed at that point.

[Amnesy]

To quickly summarize the current discussions and how they have forked off from the original post, there are three main things we're discussing:
Name of the Path: to embrace or to change
People can roleplay the path as an Icemistress of Auril, descendent of Tiamat, dwarven runecaster with runes carved on its skin, a Fireborne of Kossuth, or etc. Immediately recognizing the mechanics of the path and imply the character is a True Flame or has fire-based RP are poor form when it could have been various other types of RP.

The name of the path can be changed to allow the players more creative freedom and further clarity on how the path would be approached, or...

Reinforce the name of the path by providing more in-depth homebrew lore to the path, making it a thing on Arelith. (I have yet to see this opinion voiced, so I'll assume this is not a popular one)

Darkness Spam: to have or not to have
While it is a part of the Evocation arsenal, given the infinite casting of TF, this spell quickly turns the class from having tactical plays into cheesing mechanics (even borderline exploit) against decade-old AIs. Trivializing regular PvM contents (namely grinds and mobs).

Theme of the Path: Destruction vs Evoker
There are various points brought up in regards to being an evocation specialist. This part I can't easily summarize what has been discussed but I respect those who wish for the path to remain true to being limited to Evocation spells only.

The points I would like to bring up then are:
The path is only available to evocation school but not the other ones.
The path is also initially named True Flame, but not Path of the Evoker.
We face an undefined path that is neither from the source-book nor is the infinite spellcasting lore-friendly. Leaving much of the path up to the interpretation of the players.

We can look at the currently available spells (thanks to Nitro for providing the quick count):
39 Evocation Spells

Now, if we remove darkness, and then add in the suggested "destructive" spells:
38 Evocation spells
5 Conjuration spells
2 Transmutation spells

The majority will still be Evocation. The self-imposed evocation school-only RP will still work. Those who wish to say they specialize in destructive magics will also work, but with more flavor (mostly the acidic spells). The spells on the list that should be taken in with more consideration before adding would be Mestil's Acid Sheath and Flame Arrow.

Both types of RP can be happy without stepping on one another's toes.

Furthermore, this will further blur away the line of the path existing solely for the purpose of being an evocation specialist or a destructive-magic focused caster, which can be a good thing. This brings us back to the original problem with the "Name of the Path", some of us want it to be undefined and allow as much player freedom as possible.

This will ultimately be something some devs need to be passionate about. If it it were not foe the recent argument about grandfathering, I would support your changes with the caveat of old true flames having the option to not change.

Since I have TF on 30 I'd like to share some thoughts:
Darkness Spam - Darkness should be removed from TF as it does not fit in thematically.
But that is only of the few things on TF that allows you to enjoy content without being guarded and hugged by others.

Clean TF is very easy to hit, has no reliable summons, as well as it lack any defensive mechanic.
That is why TFs spam darkness.

Personally I see TF more like an Elementalist and would be in favor of removing anything that is not elemental (GIMS, Bigbies) in nature, as well as adding more elemental spells (Divine evocation that is elemental like an earthquake, a sound burst - and conjuration spells which add acid).

Additionally, for quality of life, I would propose improving lvl 1 summon and adding m. sword to spell list.

There was also an idea to ad tactic element in spells having extra effects based on which elemental stream was active when they were cast (which would be also a buff to defense if used on Flame Shield spell):
i.e.
Flame Shield
>Fire: Shield dealing additional damage (empower),
>Air: Scaling with CL movement speed and dodge AC,
>Earth: Scaling with CL damage reduction,
>Water: Scaling with CL saves and regeneration,
-Counter for the shield: it is the first item to breach.

Not to mention TF although has immense offensive power is mostly countered by evasion and 3 wards - and has no ability to breach or dispell anything.

Other things I noticed:
Spell quicken is such a game-changer for TF but Auto Quicken is a bad investment (4 feats) + being prevented from taking hellball vs haste potion (or party buff).

Cheers

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

To quickly summarize the current discussions and how they have forked off from the original post, there are three main things we're discussing:
Name of the Path: to embrace or to change
People can roleplay the path as an Icemistress of Auril, descendent of Tiamat, dwarven runecaster with runes carved on its skin, a Fireborne of Kossuth, or etc. Immediately recognizing the mechanics of the path and imply the character is a True Flame or has fire-based RP are poor form when it could have been various other types of RP.

The name of the path can be changed to allow the players more creative freedom and further clarity on how the path would be approached, or...

Reinforce the name of the path by providing more in-depth homebrew lore to the path, making it a thing on Arelith. (I have yet to see this opinion voiced, so I'll assume this is not a popular one)

Darkness Spam: to have or not to have
While it is a part of the Evocation arsenal, given the infinite casting of TF, this spell quickly turns the class from having tactical plays into cheesing mechanics (even borderline exploit) against decade-old AIs. Trivializing regular PvM contents (namely grinds and mobs).

Theme of the Path: Destruction vs Evoker
There are various points brought up in regards to being an evocation specialist. This part I can't easily summarize what has been discussed but I respect those who wish for the path to remain true to being limited to Evocation spells only.

The points I would like to bring up then are:
The path is only available to evocation school but not the other ones.
The path is also initially named True Flame, but not Path of the Evoker.
We face an undefined path that is neither from the source-book nor is the infinite spellcasting lore-friendly. Leaving much of the path up to the interpretation of the players.

We can look at the currently available spells (thanks to Nitro for providing the quick count):
39 Evocation Spells

Now, if we remove darkness, and then add in the suggested "destructive" spells:
38 Evocation spells
5 Conjuration spells
2 Transmutation spells

The majority will still be Evocation. The self-imposed evocation school-only RP will still work. Those who wish to say they specialize in destructive magics will also work, but with more flavor (mostly the acidic spells). The spells on the list that should be taken in with more consideration before adding would be Mestil's Acid Sheath and Flame Arrow.

Both types of RP can be happy without stepping on one another's toes.

Furthermore, this will further blur away the line of the path existing solely for the purpose of being an evocation specialist or a destructive-magic focused caster, which can be a good thing. This brings us back to the original problem with the "Name of the Path", some of us want it to be undefined and allow as much player freedom as possible.

This will ultimately be something some devs need to be passionate about. If it it were not foe the recent argument about grandfathering, I would support your changes with the caveat of old true flames having the option to not change.

Since I have TF on 30 I'd like to share some thoughts:
Darkness Spam - Darkness should be removed from TF as it does not fit in thematically.
But that is only of the few things on TF that allows you to enjoy content without being guarded and hugged by others.

Clean TF is very easy to hit, has no reliable summons, as well as it lack any defensive mechanic.
That is why TFs spam darkness.

Personally I see TF more like an Elementalist and would be in favor of removing anything that is not elemental (GIMS, Bigbies) in nature, as well as adding more elemental spells (Divine evocation that is elemental like an earthquake, a sound burst - and conjuration spells which add acid).

Additionally, for quality of life, I would propose improving lvl 1 summon and adding m. sword to spell list.

There was also an idea to ad tactic element in spells having extra effects based on which elemental stream was active when they were cast (which would be also a buff to defense if used on Flame Shield spell):
i.e.
Flame Shield
>Fire: Shield dealing additional damage (empower),
>Air: Scaling with CL movement speed and dodge AC,
>Earth: Scaling with CL damage reduction,
>Water: Scaling with CL saves and regeneration,
-Counter for the shield: it is the first item to breach.

Not to mention TF although has immense offensive power is mostly countered by evasion and 3 wards - and has no ability to breach or dispell anything.

Other things I noticed:
Spell quicken is such a game-changer for TF but Auto Quicken is a bad investment (4 feats) + being prevented from taking hellball vs haste potion (or party buff).

Cheers

So when you say darkness is not thematic, you mean it is not the theme you would like to see. It is very thematic in terms of evocations, just not for elementalists.

We are debating nuances of an already finished work to a point that I think changes would not be progressive unless devs decided otherwise.

[Kenji]

There was also an idea to ad tactic element in spells having extra effects based on which elemental stream was active when they were cast (which would be also a buff to defense if used on Flame Shield spell):
i.e.
Flame Shield
>Fire: Shield dealing additional damage (empower),
>Air: Scaling with CL movement speed and dodge AC,
>Earth: Scaling with CL damage reduction,
>Water: Scaling with CL saves and regeneration,
-Counter for the shield: it is the first item to breach.

Not to mention TF although has immense offensive power is mostly countered by evasion and 3 wards - and has no ability to breach or dispell anything.

Other things I noticed:
Spell quicken is such a game-changer for TF but Auto Quicken is a bad investment (4 feats) + being prevented from taking hellball vs haste potion (or party buff).

I believe I've read somewhere that the part about streaming and changing the spell effects accordingly is the VFX needs to be available to reflect the changes. The Flame Weapon change was readily available due to the visual effects already being available for all elements.

As for Auto-quicken builds, it is possible to do AQ3 and Hellball, you'll just have to go 26/4 spread, take the 4th dip level before level 27 (usually level 26) and then push the 23rd and 26th TF level into level 27 and beyond, thus allowing you a total of 4 epic feats from that point on.

Here are some sample builds:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1278128365

Regarding the darkness discussion, here's a post that was skimmed through:

In Darkness's defense, the root of the problem is in how the monsters and NPCs react to it, not in the spell itself.
As it is right now, it's better than stealth and Improved Invisibility in PvE, because it renders the monsters useless and stupid 75% of the time.

If the AI wasn't so bad, Darkness wouldn't be a problem - and we could even consider giving unlimited Darkness to Shadow Mages. But that can't be good with how terrible the AI is. We call it borderline exploit already with Warlocks and TFs using it.

As for Darkness, I don't think it's as big an issue as to warrant removal, plenty of other classes make just as much use of it beyond the two modern infinicasters who have it, a wand/potion of darkness is a very cheap way to give yourself ghetto concealment and mess with NPC AI. A solution here would be to have more mobs on the module with access to ultravision instead.

Since Darkness is touched upon, I may as well respond to you both. I very much agree with MissEvelyn in regards to Darkness. And certain mobs do have UV available. Not enough of them do, however, and that still makes most of the contents trivial.

It is as Opustus said prior: when the spell is used with spell slot restrictions in mind, the other casters need to use it sparingly and can't just spam it senseless in between every single pull.

We should keep in mind that Darkness potions and wands have a very short duration. Their CLs are 3, which is 3 rounds. They are more of a niche product for tactical use rather than lasting long enough for every single encounter.

Having more of the mobs have access to UV is certainly a way to approach it, at the same time, it would render those who'd utilize the potion/wands and the limited slot caster's darkness not as effective as before.

After reading some of your posts, the outright removal of darkness for TF and Warlocks may intrude upon those who wish to retain their evocation RP.

Maybe put a cooldown timer on Darkness spells that are cast. This way, it will need to be utilized at the right moment without it completely messing with the PvM nature of things.

[Void]

Regarding the darkness discussion, here's a post that was skimmed through:

A single level 2 spell should not act different compared to everything else out of "mechanical concerns".
Likewise mobs should not possess ultravision "because reasons", unless it makes sense according to lore.
Server mechanics should not exist purely to counter every strategy players come up with, as this way we'd end with perfect play AI/aka Mortal Kombat walker which are not fun to play against.

So, Darkness should behave the same way as every other trueflame spell. No arbitrary cooldowns/restriction.

However, there are animals with keen senses, and those could have heightened listen (within reason), which works against blindness and darkness.

The whole thing really sounds like mountains out of molehills, to be honest, and instead of "improving trueflame" too much of this talk was spent trying to nerf darkness (Because reasons?) which is not really an improvement of any sorts.

You'd be probably much happier if an alternative path, like "A way of fire" instead of "Unchained Evoker" was offered. But that's not a justification to screw up every player who plays trueflame currently. Proposing alternative sorcerer path is fine, by the way. However, altering something people already play is a different matter entirely - it is a destructive proposal.

If you want to move TF away from darkness you'd need to propose ADDing a new spell they'd pick instead of it. That would be a positive thing. TRying to alter/wreck existing means you're attempting to shape someone else's playstyle according to your liking. And that's not something I would view positively.

Basically, propose adding fun/alternative options, instead of trying to destroy things that are in use.

[Kenji]

I feel like the name change has not been touched much because it is mostly inconsequential where changing the spell roster will both open and close concepts, this includes existing characters.

To me a "path of destruction" is even more limiting on my concepts. This is mostly in my head of course, the way people feel like they are actaully "True Flames". Where the balance of aesthetic tips in favour staying an evocation path for me is that "something out of nothing" seems to be very hand in hand with "unlimited power" for lack of more eloquent words. I don't think other schools infini casting would have the same feel (and definitely not balance)

Now I am going to argue against myself for a bit:

True Flame is a sorceror path, not an wizard path. Sorcerors don't have "school specialities" the way wizards do, but are often thematic te way Kenji would suggest. Something like a "path of destruction" makes more sense for a sorceror than a "path of evocation" (though the latter is still perfectly valid).

Ultimately I am against mechanical changes because it works as is and it ruins certain previous characters RPed around being evocation specialists and I hate changes like that.

As for a name change of the path, I just have not heard any alternatives that make me happy as I don't want to settle for something subpar stepping forward.

The mechanical name change is more to dissuade players who recognize the path mechanically from actually calling out "True Flame!" IC than being suggestive of the path's theme. It has happened to my characters when they are archaeologists or scholars who don't associate themselves with setting everything ablaze. Perhaps the players are to blame and awareness is something that needs to be raised. But the name of the path is certainly not helping.

Path of Destruction may not have been the best example I have given. However, I must point out that True Flame is even more limiting due to it being a singular element. Therefore "Path of Destruction" would not be more limiting on the concepts, but more freeing in this case.

Path of Energy Manipulation could work, but for as long as the path's name is not True Flame, the aversion to change the name mechanically seems rather unnecessary.

As for the mechanical changes, only a select few spells (some mainly offensive and hardly used spells) from conjuration and transmutation are suggested to be added. Evocation will remain the dominant school to choose from. A self-imposed evocation specialist can still perform just as well. But an Elementalist can finally have access to acid arrows.

Having these new spells added to the list won't suddenly take the RP away from the evocation specialist.

Darkness (this again!), however, should be changed for the better. Not everyone knows how to utilize it to the fullest extent, even in their epics if they still complain about dying while in Darkness. But once one knows how to utilize it to the fullest extent, it can be pretty game-breaking. I have soloed the new Cordor Crypt with a level 10 TF (Can likely be soloed earlier, level 8 sorcerers have access to both Darkness and Wall of Fire/Ice) and I do believe it should really be changed to maintain the special feeling of TF relying on allies moreso than the other casters.

The TFs, being able to use mundane items, can use the stream books to summon elementals to attract initial attention before firing off Darkness. So far, most of the time when my TFs die is when I wasn't paying attention or when there are mobs right at the doorway or transition. This leads to not needing allies as much except for end-game content bosses or PvP. Solo-grind has become a relative ease, if not easier sometimes due to not having to worry about allies to utilize the full arsenal of spells.

Besides, this path is already a homebrew path. The adherence to the sourcebooks or lore should be second to the interest of the server at hand.

One can argue that there aren't enough TFs to warrant such changes, but from some of the other comments I have read earlier when TFs are involved, darkness spam is a rather unhealthy mechanic.

[MissEvelyn]

Instead of adding other schools to a pure evoker path, why not suggest the addition of more PnP Evocation spells that can cover more elements be added?

That way everyone would get what they want.

As for the Darkness spell, no one is forced to use it. So, make up a reason why your character doesn't use it. But taking it away from players who are enjoying it for what it is doesn't seem fair or nice.

[Void]

The mechanical name change is more to...

It really feels like you wish to enforce specific type of play and roleplay onto trueflames. That's not really a good thing, as people should be able to pick their playstyle, and the explanation of trueflame, and whether they want allies or not.
The path name is not legally binding (that's why it largely doesn't matter), and being able to clear a dungeon solo is not gamebreaking. This is what happens when somebody properly understands mechanics.

For example, for me trueflame was never a "reliance on allies", but rather figuring out way around characters limitation in high risk, high reward situations. Allies can be useful, when they happen, but they don't always happen.

And like MissEvelyn said, a more productive proposal is adding new instead of destroying old. Add a spell that trueflames would want to pick instead of darkness, for example.

[Wuthering]

True Flame is hardly the only class who can spam darkness. It's a hallmark of assassins and fiendlocks, obviously, but any cleric, bard or wizard (including spellsword) could take the darkness gift and add a ton of 2nd or 3rd level spell slots to their gear and be able to cast it like twenty times between rests plus another freebie every five minutes. I think it's way more powerful in a melee caster's hands than a True Flame's. If it's a problem (which I don't think it is, for one thing the wonky AI will cause anything that sees you before casting to ignore the darkness effect) then it's hardly just a True Flame problem.

I think the name is what it is, it's not totally accurate but I write that off as in-game jargon. Maybe it's just what some popular book on magic called them and the name stuck? If it's changed that's fine but it seems kind of fitting to me in an abstract way.

Honestly I suspect the path is just lucky to still exist and a revamp isn't too likely. Maybe some dev is really into it though, who knows.

[Kenji]

Instead of adding other schools to a pure evoker path, why not suggest the addition of more PnP Evocation spells that can cover more elements be added?

That way everyone would get what they want.

As for the Darkness spell, no one is forced to use it. So, make up a reason why your character doesn't use it. But taking it away from players who are enjoying it for what it is doesn't seem fair or nice.

True Flame is hardly the only class who can spam darkness. It's a hallmark of assassins and fiendlocks, obviously, but any cleric, bard or wizard (including spellsword) could take the darkness gift and add a ton of 2nd or 3rd level spell slots to their gear and be able to cast it like twenty times between rests plus another freebie every five minutes. I think it's way more powerful in a melee caster's hands than a True Flame's. If it's a problem (which I don't think it is, for one thing the wonky AI will cause anything that sees you before casting to ignore the darkness effect) then it's hardly just a True Flame problem.

I think the name is what it is, it's not totally accurate but I write that off as in-game jargon. Maybe it's just what some popular book on magic called them and the name stuck? If it's changed that's fine but it seems kind of fitting to me in an abstract way.

Honestly I suspect the path is just lucky to still exist and a revamp isn't too likely. Maybe some dev is really into it though, who knows.

No one is forced to use scimitars, and yet we see many would wield it over other weapons due to its mechanical prowess even if the weapon may not have been commonly seen for characters of a sword coast background, save for the pirates, Druids, or Calishites.

Today, most warlocks are supposedly shunned mainly on the surface, but TFs don’t have as much RP consequence. The darkness spam, when used right, can become borderline exploitation of the inept AI.

As for spell slot casters who’d have their level 2 and 3 slots filled with darkness or someone who took the darkness gift:

Darkness gift is on a cooldown timer, it can’t be available every single encounter. It is strategically used much like potions and wands, and it also takes a minor gift.

The spell slots filled with darkness will compete with some zoo buffs and wards. Even then, 16 casts of darkness will be easily exhausted long before a full dungeon run as opposed to the TF and Warlock darkness spam. Though one could argue that full casters don’t need darkness as much, seeing as their summons do most of he heavy lifting at times.

It’s the spammy nature of the spell made available by the paths that is better off to be changed here. That is not to say the outright removal of it, but add a cooldown timer to it much like G Sanc, Greater restoration, and the gift of darkness. Doesn’t have to be a long cooldown, as it is a low level spell and it doesn’t have much significance in PvP.

Last but not least, as MissEvelyn stated, if there are any PnP evocation spells that seems worthy of addition, point them out and discuss them. The way I see it is PnP and NWN have two very diffferent gameplay environment, sometimes the PnP aspect of things just won’t work in NWN, but that remains to be seen in this case.

And, as Malcom has mentioned, it is a sorcerer path, sorcerers don’t really have the usual school specialization much like the wizards do. Being limited to only evocation when a wider theme can be achieved seems rather a wasted opportunity.

[Wuthering]

Nah, if you can get 20+ darknesses (easy to do with extend spell and gear on a cleric, even with zoo buffs) and have the 5 minute cooldown gift you can easily have one ready every encounter-- how many encounters can you have in five minutes? That's one or two spells, one freebie, one or two spells, one freebie.. You'll finish the dungeon or your rest meter will be at zero before you're out. I've done it, it works, and it works better on a spellsword or cleric than a true flame because you're not fragile and you're either dishing out tremendous damage or you have a summon with ultravision tearing things up next to you.

I just think it's a whole separate issue and True Flames aren't the exclusive culprits with darkness spam. The one thing they and warlocks have with being able to cast it every round is the ability to blanket an area with overlapping spells, I'll give you that.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Sorcerers don't specialize, but most sorcerers can't cast an evocation spell every six seconds as long as they're breathing and conscious (we'll ignore haste/quicken/AQ). You're technically correct in that they're not a Wizard Specialist Evoker, but sheer volume of spell-casting alone means that a TF that is one week into the training of his powers has probably cast more magic missile than an Evocation Specialist will in five years of study.

By the time the TF reaches a year of casting, they've literally been able to cast hundreds of thousands, approaching millions of more spells (there are 600 rounds in an hour, and 14,400 rounds in a day) than the wizard specialist or the regular sorcerer- and they've all been evocation.

Call me crazy, but I think that means something- so for my character, at least, it does.

For the record, I'm not really attached to the name and I don't care what it's called, my character calls it what he calls it despite that.

[Void]

No one is forced to use scimitars, and yet we see many would wield it over other weapons due to its mechanical prowess even if...

So, we should ban skimitars or restrict them to one attack with a lengthy cooldown. Is that right? Six hours wait per swing.
Same logic as with darkness mechanic.

If the mechanic exists, let people use it.

[JustMonika]

No one is forced to use scimitars, and yet we see many would wield it over other weapons due to its mechanical prowess even if...

So, we should ban skimitars or restrict them to one attack with a lengthy cooldown. Is that right? Six hours wait per swing.
Same logic as with darkness mechanic.

If the mechanic exists, let people use it.

What's been suggested more than once is to standardise weapons so that the Scimitar is in fact, not the default best choice.

This is a similar objection.

[Kenji]

Nah, if you can get 20+ darknesses (easy to do with extend spell and gear on a cleric, even with zoo buffs) and have the 5 minute cooldown gift you can easily have one ready every encounter-- how many encounters can you have in five minutes? That's one or two spells, one freebie, one or two spells, one freebie.. You'll finish the dungeon or your rest meter will be at zero before you're out. I've done it, it works, and it works better on a spellsword or cleric than a true flame because you're not fragile and you're either dishing out tremendous damage or you have a summon with ultravision tearing things up next to you.

I just think it's a whole separate issue and True Flames aren't the exclusive culprits with darkness spam. The one thing they and warlocks have with being able to cast it every round is the ability to blanket an area with overlapping spells, I'll give you that.

I can agree that it is a whole separate issue, and TF is a part of it. At the same time, according to your statement, the degree of which clerics and wizards will have to temper their gear as well as taking in a minor gift in order to attain similar effects would then make for the same argument of this being more of a tactical choice.

They have to fill their low-level spell slots, they still have to monitor their rest meter, they have to spend one minor gift (compared to Gift of Craft or Gift of Tongue? Quite the trade!), and/or they have to dweomer their equipment with low-level spell slots? Doable, it's cool, even, by diversifying strategies and going through the effort to make things work.

TFs and warlocks, on the other hand, don't have to specifically gear for it, they don't have to rest nor do they have to bother with careful placement of the spell unless they care about action economy. On top of all this, and it is much like you said, it's the ability to blanket an area with darkness vs a few carefully placed darkness for strategic purposes that makes the important difference to distinguish.

[Kenji]

Sorcerers don't specialize, but most sorcerers can't cast an evocation spell every six seconds as long as they're breathing and conscious (we'll ignore haste/quicken/AQ). You're technically correct in that they're not a Wizard Specialist Evoker, but sheer volume of spell-casting alone means that a TF that is one week into the training of his powers has probably cast more magic missile than an Evocation Specialist will in five years of study.

By the time the TF reaches a year of casting, they've literally been able to cast hundreds of thousands, approaching millions of more spells (there are 600 rounds in an hour, and 14,400 rounds in a day) than the wizard specialist or the regular sorcerer- and they've all been evocation.

Call me crazy, but I think that means something- so for my character, at least, it does.

For the record, I'm not really attached to the name and I don't care what it's called, my character calls it what he calls it despite that.

You're not crazy, it's the one counterargument I have for myself. The sorcerer class for the path at this point is more of a mechanical requirement than what the actual lore behind sorcery entails, of which the TF may or may not have anything to do with.

I can't stress enough since the original post that TF is a homebrew path rather than one that adheres to the sourcebook or the lore. As such, while all the spells cast by the path may be evocation, its RP is open to many possibilities.

Expanding the theme to this particular path all the while not intruding upon the old or established RP here is possible. One that I, again, don't see why some are vehement on a few arguably negligible spells allowed to be cast by the path.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I feel like the name change has not been touched much because it is mostly inconsequential where changing the spell roster will both open and close concepts, this includes existing characters.

To me a "path of destruction" is even more limiting on my concepts. This is mostly in my head of course, the way people feel like they are actaully "True Flames". Where the balance of aesthetic tips in favour staying an evocation path for me is that "something out of nothing" seems to be very hand in hand with "unlimited power" for lack of more eloquent words. I don't think other schools infini casting would have the same feel (and definitely not balance)

Now I am going to argue against myself for a bit:

True Flame is a sorceror path, not an wizard path. Sorcerors don't have "school specialities" the way wizards do, but are often thematic te way Kenji would suggest. Something like a "path of destruction" makes more sense for a sorceror than a "path of evocation" (though the latter is still perfectly valid).

Ultimately I am against mechanical changes because it works as is and it ruins certain previous characters RPed around being evocation specialists and I hate changes like that.

As for a name change of the path, I just have not heard any alternatives that make me happy as I don't want to settle for something subpar stepping forward.

The mechanical name change is more to dissuade players who recognize the path mechanically from actually calling out "True Flame!" IC than being suggestive of the path's theme. It has happened to my characters when they are archaeologists or scholars who don't associate themselves with setting everything ablaze. Perhaps the players are to blame and awareness is something that needs to be raised. But the name of the path is certainly not helping.

Path of Destruction may not have been the best example I have given. However, I must point out that True Flame is even more limiting due to it being a singular element. Therefore "Path of Destruction" would not be more limiting on the concepts, but more freeing in this case.

Path of Energy Manipulation could work, but for as long as the path's name is not True Flame, the aversion to change the name mechanically seems rather unnecessary.

As for the mechanical changes, only a select few spells (some mainly offensive and hardly used spells) from conjuration and transmutation are suggested to be added. Evocation will remain the dominant school to choose from. A self-imposed evocation specialist can still perform just as well. But an Elementalist can finally have access to acid arrows.

Having these new spells added to the list won't suddenly take the RP away from the evocation specialist.

Darkness (this again!), however, should be changed for the better. Not everyone knows how to utilize it to the fullest extent, even in their epics if they still complain about dying while in Darkness. But once one knows how to utilize it to the fullest extent, it can be pretty game-breaking. I have soloed the new Cordor Crypt with a level 10 TF (Can likely be soloed earlier, level 8 sorcerers have access to both Darkness and Wall of Fire/Ice) and I do believe it should really be changed to maintain the special feeling of TF relying on allies moreso than the other casters.

The TFs, being able to use mundane items, can use the stream books to summon elementals to attract initial attention before firing off Darkness. So far, most of the time when my TFs die is when I wasn't paying attention or when there are mobs right at the doorway or transition. This leads to not needing allies as much except for end-game content bosses or PvP. Solo-grind has become a relative ease, if not easier sometimes due to not having to worry about allies to utilize the full arsenal of spells.

Besides, this path is already a homebrew path. The adherence to the sourcebooks or lore should be second to the interest of the server at hand.

One can argue that there aren't enough TFs to warrant such changes, but from some of the other comments I have read earlier when TFs are involved, darkness spam is a rather unhealthy mechanic.

Sorry on my phone one handed and s little hard to trim down the qouting on my end.


I don't think a name like "path of destruction" is more open than "true flame" which made me think of a metaphysical flame rather literal one. Fire is life and death if you consider things like the Sun.

I understand concerns about relying on darkness mechanic. I am not sure it warrants changes. Mostly due to already existing characters.

*edit* Cordor crypt is solo able pre level 10 by sub optimal characters. Not best example. But i get what you mean.

I feel like one came up with a good name alternative, it would have better traction.

[Void]

I don't think a name like "path of destruction" is more open than "true flame" which made me think of a metaphysical flame rather literal one. Fire is life and death if you consider things like the Sun.

Path of destruction sounds like a name of a monk order worshipping tharizdun or another power that seeks the end of all things, including their practitioners. Definitely does not bring an image of evoker in mind.

Evocation is force, not annihilation. It brings force into existence, then it creates havoc with it.

[DM Wraith]

Folks, friendly reminder here that we are all one community. While we may have disagreeing viewpoints, please treat each other with respect.