Grandfathering

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I'd imagine every player has a vault full of characters (myself included) the and yes I do agree the freedom to just roll up a character as you see fit is always going to win this discussion, but are those extra characters active in various factions that could inadvertently meta game into their other characters, I'm not suggesting this happens but if you only had a single character it would lower that challenge of your character not knowing what you know.. (you know what I mean). The original question was related to grand fathering and other players feeling towards it was unfair. With a 1 character vault I don't think it would feel so much "unfair" as that person has dedicated themselves to that character for a hugely significant amount of time, most likely - they would roll it, hence new player characters and an endless rotation, instead of the same old faces popping up randomly after years, but if they didn't, great we have some elders to inspire us?

95% percent of my vaults are shelved and, or no faction involved characters. Players who suffer from character focus issues often dont get past level 12 and are often not involved in factions. I this is why rolling was brought down in increments all the way down to 16. With new rolling system and less free time i tend to now play only one character at a time. But i stilll have quite the vault. Don't worry, half my never to be played kensais only have one gift and all of them have int 12 or less lol.

if it makes you smile, my only kensai is a level 6 rogue but yet i keep him because i know it is now unobtainable?

I keep all my lvl 3 to 6 characters sitting there over a decade lol (regardless if they have anything unique or not) they are my characters and at one point I had some dream with them.

[CptJonas]

95% percent of my vaults are shelved and, or no faction involved characters. Players who suffer from character focus issues often dont get past level 12 and are often not involved in factions. I this is why rolling was brought down in increments all the way down to 16. With new rolling system and less free time i tend to now play only one character at a time. But i stilll have quite the vault. Don't worry, half my never to be played kensais only have one gift and all of them have int 12 or less lol.

if it makes you smile, my only kensai is a level 6 rogue but yet i keep him because i know it is now unobtainable?

I keep all my lvl 3 to 6 characters sitting there over a decade lol (regardless if they have anything unique or not) they are my characters and at one point I had some dream with them.

Lol...exactly...I am at point when I try to name my new characters on A or Z so I dont need to look for them like 5 min each time

[MissEvelyn]

Can confirm that I'm also holding on to Kensais (two, I think) and Weavemasters. Though I never got to try out Favored Soul, which is a bit of a bummer.

Oh and I'm holding on to Warlocks, True Flames, and Spellswords as well, because you never know when they might go away. Oh and Shadow Mages, of course =)

[Hazard]

I wish I held onto a weavemaster. I knew I'd regret not doing it!
I cleaned out my vault so I don't have any old goodies anymore, except for 2 characters with the old ride gift, which is pretty neat.

[Dreams]

Can confirm that I'm also holding on to Kensais (two, I think) and Weavemasters. Though I never got to try out Favored Soul, which is a bit of a bummer.

Oh and I'm holding on to Warlocks, True Flames, and Spellswords as well, because you never know when they might go away. Oh and Shadow Mages, of course =)

This attitude is the exact reason I made this thread. It is damaging to the server to know that people are holding onto these characters for the solely because they know that development is unstable and sometime these things might be taken away. They're not actively played, they're not a part of the world until those things become rare, so they wait until it is gone and then suddenly those players have something special that other people don't have.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Can confirm that I'm also holding on to Kensais (two, I think) and Weavemasters. Though I never got to try out Favored Soul, which is a bit of a bummer.

Oh and I'm holding on to Warlocks, True Flames, and Spellswords as well, because you never know when they might go away. Oh and Shadow Mages, of course =)

This attitude is the exact reason I made this thread. It is damaging to the server to know that people are holding onto these characters for the solely because they know that development is unstable and sometime these things might be taken away. They're not actively played, they're not a part of the world until those things become rare, so they wait until it is gone and then suddenly those players have something special that other people don't have.

There is a difference between holding on to something because it's broken as hell and holding onto something because it's a concept you want to play (later) and want to make sure it's still around.

Truly busted things get -releveled in a mandatory fashion. Assuming the implicit worst about a person or group of people's motivations for holding onto character concepts in their vault is far more damaging to your experience (because if you think everyone is out to get you it doesn't matter whether they are or not, you won't enjoy yourself) than someone holding onto a warlock or a true flame.

You took this sentiment, and from it you seem to have taken "clearly you're waiting until it's busted and/or no longer available so you can dangle it in front of our faces and blow raspberries at us."

I looked at it and said "Warlock? Caster. Shadowmage? Caster. True Flame? Caster. All things I want to play, but I don't have time to play them all right now. I should make one of each in case I can't later."

I'm not saying that no one has ever had a malicious thought on this server. I'm suggesting that most things that are cycled out or removed are done so not because they're OP (when they are, they don't get grandfathered) but because the server has hit some subjective threshold decided by the staff, that probably includes vaulted characters. They are designed to slowly become rarer and rarer as time goes on, and whether people vault the characters or not that becomes a fact because new ones can't be created.

No one vaulted a character to ruin your day (and if you have compelling evidence, please report them, they're jerkfaces). They did it because they have to manage their time and they still wanted to play the thing, so they planned ahead to play the thing. I have a favored soul with a gift of humility and a mark of destiny sitting in my vault. I've actually played him a little bit, but he usually winds up backseat to my other three characters in priority of things happening.

Do you think I did this because I wanted to have something you could never have? I suspect you don't - especially since I haven't really had time to play in any way that impacts you in the last month and a half, at the very least.

May I ask, in all genuine curiosity, why what's sitting in my vault for me to play when I come back from months-long work-schedule enforced hiatus genuinely seems to bother you to the point that you think I and/or others like me did it to spite you, and do you understand how from my side it looks like you are begrudging my ability to play one or more concepts around a limited schedule of availability?

[Nitro]

I'm suggesting that most things that are cycled out or removed are done so not because they're OP (when they are, they don't get grandfathered)

Hah! Good one. In todays scroll-less potion-using Arelith Kensai are extremely potent, and weavemasters/favored souls still destroy any challenge from PvE content. They're definitely OP.

May I ask, in all genuine curiosity, why what's sitting in my vault for me to play when I come back from months-long work-schedule enforced hiatus genuinely seems to bother you to the point that you think I and/or others like me did it to spite you, and do you understand how from my side it looks like you are begrudging my ability to play one or more concepts around a limited schedule of availability?

On a more serious note, you're twisting Dreams' words. They've stated exactly why this is harmful to the server, because OP things DO (or have in the past) get grandfathered, and then it's not healthy to the server culture when two years of development down the line when they might be even MORE powerful (see kensai after the UMD update) to suddenly have 12 people unshelve one of their ten grandfathered characters to start being budget 5%'s that they got just from virtue of making a bunch of characters on the off-chance that the class will get deactivated one day.

[-XXX-]

IMO they ought to finish all path/subrace/specialsnowflake projects, tweak them and make them available.
Lot of work probably, but that way there'd be no incentive for grandfathering and no feel bads toward people who do that.

The only other viable alternative I can see would be periodical server-side vault wipes.... which would probably kill the server very fast IMHO

[MissEvelyn]

Can confirm that I'm also holding on to Kensais (two, I think) and Weavemasters. Though I never got to try out Favored Soul, which is a bit of a bummer.

Oh and I'm holding on to Warlocks, True Flames, and Spellswords as well, because you never know when they might go away. Oh and Shadow Mages, of course =)

This attitude is the exact reason I made this thread. It is damaging to the server to know that people are holding onto these characters for the solely because they know that development is unstable and sometime these things might be taken away. They're not actively played, they're not a part of the world until those things become rare, so they wait until it is gone and then suddenly those players have something special that other people don't have.

There is a difference between holding on to something because it's broken as hell and holding onto something because it's a concept you want to play (later) and want to make sure it's still around.

Truly busted things get -releveled in a mandatory fashion. Assuming the implicit worst about a person or group of people's motivations for holding onto character concepts in their vault is far more damaging to your experience (because if you think everyone is out to get you it doesn't matter whether they are or not, you won't enjoy yourself) than someone holding onto a warlock or a true flame.

You took this sentiment, and from it you seem to have taken "clearly you're waiting until it's busted and/or no longer available so you can dangle it in front of our faces and blow raspberries at us."

I looked at it and said "Warlock? Caster. Shadowmage? Caster. True Flame? Caster. All things I want to play, but I don't have time to play them all right now. I should make one of each in case I can't later."

I'm not saying that no one has ever had a malicious thought on this server. I'm suggesting that most things that are cycled out or removed are done so not because they're OP (when they are, they don't get grandfathered) but because the server has hit some subjective threshold decided by the staff, that probably includes vaulted characters. They are designed to slowly become rarer and rarer as time goes on, and whether people vault the characters or not that becomes a fact because new ones can't be created.

No one vaulted a character to ruin your day (and if you have compelling evidence, please report them, they're jerkfaces). They did it because they have to manage their time and they still wanted to play the thing, so they planned ahead to play the thing. I have a favored soul with a gift of humility and a mark of destiny sitting in my vault. I've actually played him a little bit, but he usually winds up backseat to my other three characters in priority of things happening.

Do you think I did this because I wanted to have something you could never have? I suspect you don't - especially since I haven't really had time to play in any way that impacts you in the last month and a half, at the very least.

May I ask, in all genuine curiosity, why what's sitting in my vault for me to play when I come back from months-long work-schedule enforced hiatus genuinely seems to bother you to the point that you think I and/or others like me did it to spite you, and do you understand how from my side it looks like you are begrudging my ability to play one or more concepts around a limited schedule of availability?

I would quote more specifically, but I'm on my phone.

You absolutely nailed it for why I have shelved casters that are unique to Arelith (Warlock, TF, SS, etc.). I want to play these in the future. Not just as classes, but as characters each with her own individual backstory and personality. But I'm not the type of person to play more than one character at a time, and I don't have time for more anyways.

They're sitting in my vault because they're for the future. And if you want to take anything away from my "mentality" it's that good things don't last forever, and that includes paths, so hold on to them while you can.

And to the people saying that dungeons weren't developed with those paths in mind, the counter argument is that they weren't developed with red dragon disciples or dragons or vampires in mind either. But we're not taking those away, are we? If anything, the grandfathered paths should return as awards.

And awards are meant to be strong, overpowered, and "busted".

But overall, Aelryn nails it. It doesn't hurt you or hamper your experience that someone has a Kensai or Weavemaster in their vault. And if it does, then I'm more worried about your mentality than I am about grandfathered paths. And I mean that in the most caring way possible, because I do love this place we call our server and I want others to enjoy it as well.

[CptJonas]

Well said...for example me..
I dont have problem with people having old classes and races..
What I personaly dont like/hate is fact that I cant play those classes
Duck with PVE balance...its easy anyway...I want my support inficaster

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

May I ask, in all genuine curiosity, why what's sitting in my vault for me to play when I come back from months-long work-schedule enforced hiatus genuinely seems to bother you to the point that you think I and/or others like me did it to spite you, and do you understand how from my side it looks like you are begrudging my ability to play one or more concepts around a limited schedule of availability?

On a more serious note, you're twisting Dreams' words. They've stated exactly why this is harmful to the server, because OP things DO (or have in the past) get grandfathered, and then it's not healthy to the server culture when two years of development down the line when they might be even MORE powerful (see kensai after the UMD update) to suddenly have 12 people unshelve one of their ten grandfathered characters to start being budget 5%'s that they got just from virtue of making a bunch of characters on the off-chance that the class will get deactivated one day.

Can confirm that I'm also holding on to Kensais (two, I think) and Weavemasters. Though I never got to try out Favored Soul, which is a bit of a bummer.

Oh and I'm holding on to Warlocks, True Flames, and Spellswords as well, because you never know when they might go away. Oh and Shadow Mages, of course =)

This attitude is the exact reason I made this thread. It is damaging to the server to know that people are holding onto these characters for the solely because they know that development is unstable and sometime these things might be taken away. They're not actively played, they're not a part of the world until those things become rare, so they wait until it is gone and then suddenly those players have something special that other people don't have.

To be fair, I'm not trying to be combative, but I'm not twisting words at all- this is a direct accusation that a person in question disagreeing with the premise of this thread did these things in bad faith and with bad intentions. If that wasn't the intended statement, I'm happy to apologize for misunderstanding, but there isn't really a whole lot of room to misread, IMO.



I'll agree that weavemasters are strong in PvE - I don't think they ruin anyone's fun by existing, although I do agree they can make a dungeon much less challenging.

We have a hard disagreement on kensai, but I'm not trying to derail the thread with all the reasons I believe either grandfathered concept is heavily disadvantaged in today's PvP environment.

[Dreams]

I explained why I feel that way. It’s not a personal attack, it’s just a good example of someone who is holding onto multiple characters in order to play when they’re no longer available.

It doesn’t matter what the reasoning is behind doing so, I’m saying that it shouldn’t happen.

@Aelryn, I think you are making what I’ve said sound much more extreme than intended. There’s no hard feelings and it isn’t saying this player is acting in bad faith. It’s a systematic problem that I am highlighting, based on server policy which is not consistent.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'm with dreams on this one 100%. Its not about a personal attack on anyone, its about server balance. But if the reason that people what to keep these characters is about the character and not the over powered-ness of the feature, that's easily fixed by giving people that still have these builds free remakes and level ups with a class that is more in line with the servers power level.

I feel like the decisions to keep the grandfathered classes were made so as not to rock the boat, not because the devs thought it was a good idea. It has to be that way otherwise why remove it in the first place? Now that we have been through lore-gate and discord-gate and the server is still going strong, it might be time to rethink that decision.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I'm with dreams on this one 100%. Its not about a personal attack on anyone, its about server balance. But if the reason that people what to keep these characters is about the character and not the over powered-ness of the feature, that's easily fixed by giving people that still have these builds free remakes and level ups with a class that is more in line with the servers power level.

I feel like the decisions to keep the grandfathered classes were made so as not to rock the boat, not because the devs thought it was a good idea. It has to be that way otherwise why remove it in the first place? Now that we have been through lore-gate and discord-gate and the server is still going strong, it might be time to rethink that decision.

I've mentioned this before, but practically speaking this just doesn't work in all cases. If warlocks had spells per day tomorrow, or true flames, it wouldn't honestly be fair to say that's the same rp concept. The character wakes up one day and the player suddenly has to come up with a reason ic that their character suddenly has to rest to cast spells.

This would be the same if you forced weavemasters to relevel as sorcerers- even translating them into true flames would force an odd struggle for explanation to characters familiar with the altered individual.

I believe (I have no evidence other than my desire to believe they care) the dev's have probably allowed grandfathering for several reasons, but predominantly for the sake of ic consistency of abilities for the sake of the stories of those playing them.

I also suspect that as time erodes legacy characters from existence, it allows the occasional atmospheric irregularity to pop up on a practically limited scale, much like in the past when certain greater awards were allowed up to a population cap then closed off- a sprinkling is good, too much is bad.

And if something on that list becomes endangered or extinct, it becomes an easy reusable candidate for the awards tiers until it's occasionally around again.

On the other hand, Monks of the Busted Free Feats were, unlike several of the classes mentioned, COMPLETELY balance shattering to the RPS dynamic, and they DID get assisted relevels.

The policy isn't consistent because different races, classes, and paths are removed for discernably different reasons, on a case by case basis.

Or I'm insane and it doesn't work this way- but I don't know why it wouldn't.


Edit: I'd have less objection by the way, if path/ class erasure came with an in game story arc that was accessible as public lore in the game world, so that there was at least a story- based reason for the character to wake up and suddenly do wildly different things.

Edit 2: I have no vested interest in the WM example- of the many casters in my vault, WMs aren't one of them. One filthy blood mage is my limit.

Edit 3: @ Dreams- I apologize for misreading your tone- you're very passionate about this (not inherently bad, I just took it for defensiveness.) I see where you're coming from, I just don't see other people's vaults as an obstacle to my experience- I tend to look at coming across oddities as an Enhancement that doesn't crash me.

[Wuthering]

Though automated relevels weren't yet a "thing" back when Favored Souls and Weavemasters were removed and it took a while for the idea to gain acceptance. If a class like True Flame was removed now a forced relevel just might be mandatory.

Or it might not. Who knows. This stuff seems very subject to the whims of devs as they come and go.

[kiljaedon]

I am not sure how grandfathering is destructive to the server. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence. The server is more full than ever and I feel there are lots of other stuff more damaging to the server as of this moment than having a stint of jealousy. Should all dragons be turned into half-dragons since the race is retired? Cambions?

[Void]

Grandfathering is fine. I also do not believe into any sort of "balance".

Grandfathering as is adds to the server's feeling of charm/mystery - when you meed someone unusual, start talking to them and ask what they are, and then they can tell you of events from the past.

I believe it is quite cool and should remain as is.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

The server is more full than ever and I feel there are lots of other stuff more damaging to the server as of this moment than having a stint of jealousy.

Unfortunately your huge assumption falls flat, because I am finally getting around to moving my cd key from old nwn to EE short of having both a Kesnai and a weave master in my vault. I didn't really play arelith when weavemaster was a thing, I just logged in and made one to jerk around for a day, and I stopped playing my kensai as soon as it was removed. Maybe every opinion you have is laden in jealousy and envy and that's why you project it on others, I don't know, but I feel relatively confident that that is not everyone else. But if you take one thing from my post here, its that people can have a different opinion then you without being the bad guy. Seriously, its true.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I'm suggesting that most things that are cycled out or removed are done so not because they're OP (when they are, they don't get grandfathered)

Hah! Good one. In todays scroll-less potion-using Arelith Kensai are extremely potent, and weavemasters/favored souls still destroy any challenge from PvE content. They're definitely OP.

May I ask, in all genuine curiosity, why what's sitting in my vault for me to play when I come back from months-long work-schedule enforced hiatus genuinely seems to bother you to the point that you think I and/or others like me did it to spite you, and do you understand how from my side it looks like you are begrudging my ability to play one or more concepts around a limited schedule of availability?

On a more serious note, you're twisting Dreams' words. They've stated exactly why this is harmful to the server, because OP things DO (or have in the past) get grandfathered, and then it's not healthy to the server culture when two years of development down the line when they might be even MORE powerful (see kensai after the UMD update) to suddenly have 12 people unshelve one of their ten grandfathered characters to start being budget 5%'s that they got just from virtue of making a bunch of characters on the off-chance that the class will get deactivated one day.

I still think kensai is weaker after umd update. Kensai was a must have for any build that didn't have a umd dump class. So like 23 fighter/7 wm or 30 fighter, 30 monk, etc. because those builds gave nothing up to be kensais. Now those builds have the option of using lore for scrolls, like much needed breaches.

[CptJonas]

I'm suggesting that most things that are cycled out or removed are done so not because they're OP (when they are, they don't get grandfathered)

Hah! Good one. In todays scroll-less potion-using Arelith Kensai are extremely potent, and weavemasters/favored souls still destroy any challenge from PvE content. They're definitely OP.

May I ask, in all genuine curiosity, why what's sitting in my vault for me to play when I come back from months-long work-schedule enforced hiatus genuinely seems to bother you to the point that you think I and/or others like me did it to spite you, and do you understand how from my side it looks like you are begrudging my ability to play one or more concepts around a limited schedule of availability?

On a more serious note, you're twisting Dreams' words. They've stated exactly why this is harmful to the server, because OP things DO (or have in the past) get grandfathered, and then it's not healthy to the server culture when two years of development down the line when they might be even MORE powerful (see kensai after the UMD update) to suddenly have 12 people unshelve one of their ten grandfathered characters to start being budget 5%'s that they got just from virtue of making a bunch of characters on the off-chance that the class will get deactivated one day.

I still think kensai is weaker after umd update. Kensai was a must have for any build that didn't have a umd dump class. So like 23 fighter/7 wm or 30 fighter, 30 monk, etc. because those builds gave nothing up to be kensais. Now those builds have the option of using lore for scrolls, like much needed breaches.

You as many others think in bad scale...what is better...build with UMD or lore, with wizzard next to him...or Kensai with wizzard next to him?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Hah! Good one. In todays scroll-less potion-using Arelith Kensai are extremely potent, and weavemasters/favored souls still destroy any challenge from PvE content. They're definitely OP.


On a more serious note, you're twisting Dreams' words. They've stated exactly why this is harmful to the server, because OP things DO (or have in the past) get grandfathered, and then it's not healthy to the server culture when two years of development down the line when they might be even MORE powerful (see kensai after the UMD update) to suddenly have 12 people unshelve one of their ten grandfathered characters to start being budget 5%'s that they got just from virtue of making a bunch of characters on the off-chance that the class will get deactivated one day.

I still think kensai is weaker after umd update. Kensai was a must have for any build that didn't have a umd dump class. So like 23 fighter/7 wm or 30 fighter, 30 monk, etc. because those builds gave nothing up to be kensais. Now those builds have the option of using lore for scrolls, like much needed breaches.

You as many others think in bad scale...what is better...build with UMD or lore, with wizzard next to him...or Kensai with wizzard next to him?

First off, this would depend on the build.
Regardless of build though, this doesn't justify calling kensai op in the current meta- if you give any melee character a pocket buffer they naturally get jacked out, but let's take a fighter rogue weapon master kensai vs the same non-kensai and remove the wizard from the equation.

I suspect the non kensai built for the current meta, lore included, will have options available to them to slaughter the kensai made in an age before many current BestInSlot gear pieces were added, to say nothing of lore and other vital mechanical changes.

Could be wrong- don't think I am, though.

[Hazard]

I think grandfathering shouldn't be allowed when it allows other players to keep OP things.
But it should be allowed so that I can keep OP things!

[CptJonas]

I still think kensai is weaker after umd update. Kensai was a must have for any build that didn't have a umd dump class. So like 23 fighter/7 wm or 30 fighter, 30 monk, etc. because those builds gave nothing up to be kensais. Now those builds have the option of using lore for scrolls, like much needed breaches.

You as many others think in bad scale...what is better...build with UMD or lore, with wizzard next to him...or Kensai with wizzard next to him?

First off, this would depend on the build.
Regardless of build though, this doesn't justify calling kensai op in the current meta- if you give any melee character a pocket buffer they naturally get jacked out, but let's take a fighter rogue weapon master kensai vs the same non-kensai and remove the wizard from the equation.

I suspect the non kensai built for the current meta, lore included, will have options available to them to slaughter the kensai made in an age before many current BestInSlot gear pieces were added, to say nothing of lore and other vital mechanical changes.

Could be wrong- don't think I am, though.

But my point stands....tell me when you didnt have "pocket buffer" when you do anything other then solo grinding/writs....
Like each time there should be fight.....or you go into epic dungeon...you allways have with yourself 1-2 if not more casters....and you allways have wizzard/sorc for mass haste....so you will allways have option to ask for buffs...
This isnt single player game or 1vs1 arena....

Heck my kensai even signet contract with mage to be his bodyguard and literaly I had "pocket buffer" on my side 24/7.....So + it even gives ya RP opurtunity

[CptJonas]

Hah..all this kensai talk want me to pull out one of mine 5 kensais and start leveling him up

[kiljaedon]

The server is more full than ever and I feel there are lots of other stuff more damaging to the server as of this moment than having a stint of jealousy.

Unfortunately your huge assumption falls flat, because I am finally getting around to moving my cd key from old nwn to EE short of having both a Kesnai and a weave master in my vault. I didn't really play arelith when weavemaster was a thing, I just logged in and made one to jerk around for a day, and I stopped playing my kensai as soon as it was removed. Maybe every opinion you have is laden in jealousy and envy and that's why you project it on others, I don't know, but I feel relatively confident that that is not everyone else. But if you take one thing from my post here, its that people can have a different opinion then you without being the bad guy. Seriously, its true.

Strange how my statement seems to change its meaning when snippets are removed to alter its context. You will find that my entire statement is more of a showcasing of how there is no real damage that I can see to the server besides those with a chip on their shoulder at not being able to have something someone else has. So no my assumption has nothing to do with it. I do not see how people having grandfathered gear or classes as damaging to the server.