Concerns about Server Direction.

[The GrumpyCat]

A few of the upcoming changes are occuring precisely to shrink down areas. Going forward you will see some condencing of certain settled areas.

1) We will not be deleting Skal or Sencliff. We did discuss changing Skal a while ago, but decided to keep it more or less as is. I will say, I think it is good to have a starting location away from polotics of the mainland, and it gives a very different 'feel' to the rest of Arelith. I do not see either of these being removed any time soon.

2) Abolutly not.
Are you arguing playing an evil alignment should be locked behind a rpr? That sends out a terrible message. It be damaging for conflict on the server, as it would encourage new players that 'Good' is the default. And it isn't.
And again funneling all the pcs ito cordor is probably a very bad idea. Cordor is cool but it isn't for everyone. And also it's player run. That gives the player running Cordor HUMUNGUS amounts of power. We already have a king there in part (though only in part) to curtail the power of Cordor.
Cordor can also be very cliquish, and a little impenitrable. To give players a vareity of starting areas helps prevent that being a serious issue.
I suppose I can //sort// of see an argument in making playing a UD race/background behind some sort of gate. But as much as I like the rpr system I know people fall though the cracks and it doesn't seem right to deprive someone of their ability to play that Drow they want just because a DM hasn't noticed them yet. If we put it behind the award tier, then all your saying at the moment is, 'You have to run-grind a single character you don't wanna play up as fast as possible to play the large swath of characters you do wanna play.' I fail to see how that is at all useful.

3) I really don't see why? If someone wants to make such a character and gets it wrong, they can always make a new one. I mean, I can sort of see the argument maybe? But not really. Seems a bit unnecesary honestly. It's not as if the Dm team are innundated with complaints about this. In fact I've never seen any complaint about this.

4) Not a bad idea maybe? Though to be honest there's a fair few writ overlap areas anyway.

5) Irongron is really the main creative lead, and we just talk it out betwee us. So far it seems to be working pretty well. Also - as Baron Saterday has pointed out - if we see a long term, significant drop in players then we can shrink things.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I disagree with deleting Sencliff. Instead I'd have the pirate token removed. Right now I think a large problem is there's not many places where people can set up and just do something. It's just Sibayad and the Crow's Nest. The settlements are all deeply entrenched, except for Cordor which is an insane wildcard. Sencliff is pirates. The underdark is outcasts/monsters. Groves for druids. RH for paladins. The list goes on, there's not a lot of open areas where you can just do whatever. And supposedly the team wants to remove wilderness housing by way of the brokerage system, which will make things even worse.

For an evil character, it really forces you into one of these sandboxes. Unless you have a ton of player connections and can acquire a house in a wilderness area, Sibayad, or the Crow's Nest. MAYBE the Shadow Plane, but that is even more out there and insane than living in the Underdark.


A secondary problem is the tagging system removes impact. People can look at a tag and just determine if someone is "evil." Which means if someone DOESN'T have a tag, it's an uphill battle getting anyone to do anything about it. I think the team keeps trying to use mechanics to hammer out solutions, and it's just making the problem worse. I think it would be a lot better if the outcast and pirate statuses were removed, so players couldn't examine and see who is what. So non-outcasts who frequent Andunor and befriend monsters would be the exact same as current outcasts. Just remove outcasts period, so everyone who is in Andunor runs the same risks of being there. And spies have to actually observe people working for monsters. As well, removing the pirate system would let anyone go and start something in Sencliff, so it's not just Sibayad for villainous sorts.

I've watched a lot of hammering to try and force players to see and acknowledge monsters and outcasts as bad, but it's not happening, because there are people who straight up are going to ignore it, no matter what, because they want to do social RP. I don't think that can possibly be fixed outside of having a few dedicated setting enforcement DMs who can play settlement rulers, who players can go to with information if other players refuse to acknowledge what's going on. I don't think evil characters should be blamed for wanting to get into the settlements and spy-- That's exactly what they should be doing. The problem is all of the people who accept them with open arms, over and over.



Overall I think the server is too small, not too big. A lot of the areas are choked and it's hard for people to start new things unless they have a lot of connections. In contrast, I come from a server with very big, open, unused areas. It's easy for people to go and start whatever they want in some corner of the map. And I don't feel the server suffers for it, people still get together and RP in places. And if players start announcing they're doing things somewhere, suddenly those places find themselves filled with life.

And lastly, I'd rather see more people try to RP solutions to problems, rather than just write reports every time there's a non-outcast who spends a lot of time befriending drow, while also going up to the surface to socialize above too. I think RP solutions should be enabled more, rather than mechanical ones.

[YEET]

As a long time player the one thing I agree with in this thread is that Skal doesnt really have any...i suppose example is the word id use, there arent a vast array of long time players there as its often picked by first time players so there arent often someone there to set the example of what text base rp games such as what is offered by arelith involves. Im not implying there are bad players on Skal, but often they dont have the standard around them like they would in Cordor, Sencliff and Andunor. Im just saying no one in the older starting areas have told me "Sorry I lost concentration on my wi-fi spell" After comming back from a crash...y'know? Love Skal as an area, not a huge fan of how a lot of the time the people there have yet to actually figure out what theyre doing.

[Dr. B]

I do not think there is a population issue, though I would be against adding new settlements. I think we have reached maximal utility with the current number.

However, I would not mind more wilderness areas. It would be great if it actually felt like time was elapsing as you traveled, and changes in your scenery were more gradual. It would add a sense of scale and realism, and allow for very some very nuanced and creative opportunities for worldbuilding. I do appreciate the somewhat thrifty design of the areas, but it would be great to have a few parts of the world that feel truly vast.

What matters is that the settlements stay inhabited, and that there are quick ways to travel between them.

[MissEvelyn]

Our player numbers are increasing, and have massively increased in the last ten years, even before Enhanced Edition. We are not losing player numbers. This is simply false and incorrect information. I'm sure Irongron or someone else with the actual numbers can provide a source that disproves that.

Skal is doing really well with it's little role-playing community and I don't see how removing the entirety of it would benefit anyone.

Once in a while threads of this nature come up and I can't help but scratch my head in confusion. Why is it that you want the server to change so fundamentally? I get the nostalgia vibe, and as a player who's been around since the early pre-expansions Arelith, I do understand. But decisions based on nostalgia are rarely rational.
But why try to fix something that isn't broken? The server is doing fine. As a player it's your responsibility to make use of the tools that already exist and create a fun and immersive experience out of it with your fellow players, using the many tools at your disposal.

Ignoring all the opportunistic tools and players to instead cry out for the devs to add, remove, or change things only detracts from your own fun.

I'll reiterate: The server is doing very well, player numbers are consistently increasing over the years or at the very least staying stable, and the devs and DMs are doing an amazing job at making this the best online role-playing community.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Due to FOIG restrictions, starting in Sencliff was the only way i was able to embrace being part of it.

I started level 3 at the Cliff and I absolutely loved. We visit other settlements to do writs anyways so we come across other new characters.

[D4wN]

As someone who plays in Australian time zones I can validate that our key playtime often feels abandoned. Events organised by other players or DMs always happen outside of when we are able to participate either because we're asleep or because we're working. For us to get any involvement into plots or good deep RP we have to offer up logging on at 6am in the mornings or play into the middle of our nights often during work days too. I know this because it's what I have been doing to try and build RP for myself and others. And it is exhausting. However it can also very rewarding and I don't mean to step onto a soapbox here. So, let me bring it back on topic.

I've only played on Arelith for a year. And I've had two characters so far. Cordor is lively and active, because many people start here. It's a great place to recruit people into factions and a great place to get people involved. I've never played on Sencliffe or started there. But I know every time I went there with my non-pirate character it was abandoned allowing me to freely explore without issues (side benefit perhaps?). I've been to Skal and the big open spaces didn't do it for me. Radiant Heart is very quiet and so are many places. Especially when playing during my time zone it is so important to try and find people to play with which is terribly difficult. I'm here to RP. And I've literally spent hours going from settlement to settlement and wandering around during my weekday nights to find absolutely no one. It can at times be really disheartening.

In terms of idea, I don't know what people are willing to do for us about this. I don't know if anyone really cares lol. But there are areas perhaps that could be rolled up into other areas. For example, the lowlands swamp and Gloom. I never see people there unless it's for writs. To try and start anything in Gloom is difficult cause it's so far out of the way of everything. The Darkheart Grove has always been abandoned for as long as I've played. There are hubs I think that can be combined to try and draw people to it and have a greater chance to encounter others. I've never seen it but I hear Andunor really has but one Hub. I like that idea, because no matter where you go you will find people to RP with. Perhaps combining all the Earthkin settlements could be another idea. The gnomes are so separated at the moment. It doesn't have to be huge, but I agree with Monika there are so many places atm and times where it truly feels abandoned. Many times.

[Wuthering]

Yes but Times Square NYC feels almost abandoned if you go there at 3am on a Sunday Night. It's not possible for every area to be bustling all of the time and it's not reasonable to expect, either.

Skal is really hopping during peak hours and areas like Radiant Heart, Sencliff and The Grove do see a lot of action throughout the day. I don't think constant activity is an appropriate metric, the question is are there dedicated players who call that spot "home base" and when there's a meeting planned do lots of people show? In all three of those cases it's "yes." I've seen Grove and Sencliff events with 40+ characters in attendance in the past year, areas like that aren't dead at all but you do have to coordinate to get the most out of them.

I'm on the edge of Australian player time (evenings PST USA mostly, which is also often kind of dead) and I do understand that problem, I don't know what the answer is but it's not losing settlements. Maybe off-hours players need a Discord dedicated to making things happen in that time zone or something.

[D4wN]

I don't know what the answer is either!! *cry*

And that might be fun yeah! I'd love to see more activity in our time zones and have more stuff happening.

[JustMonika]

#
2) Abolutly not.
Are you arguing playing an evil alignment should be locked behind a rpr? That sends out a terrible message. It be damaging for conflict on the server, as it would encourage new players that 'Good' is the default. And it isn't.
And again funneling all the pcs ito cordor is probably a very bad idea. Cordor is cool but it isn't for everyone. And also it's player run. That gives the player running Cordor HUMUNGUS amounts of power. We already have a king there in part (though only in part) to curtail the power of Cordor.
Cordor can also be very cliquish, and a little impenitrable. To give players a vareity of starting areas helps prevent that being a serious issue.
I suppose I can //sort// of see an argument in making playing a UD race/background behind some sort of gate. But as much as I like the rpr system I know people fall though the cracks and it doesn't seem right to deprive someone of their ability to play that Drow they want just because a DM hasn't noticed them yet. If we put it behind the award tier, then all your saying at the moment is, 'You have to run-grind a single character you don't wanna play up as fast as possible to play the large swath of characters you do wanna play.' I fail to see how that is at all useful.

Not at all, Grumpycat.

I'll try to restress.

I was advocating that the Underdark Start, be locked behind a 20 RPR -or- having previously aquired one minor gift.

That means anyone could still start as any evil aligned character in Cordor, and you couldn't start in the underdark as a good alignedcharacter.

It would essentially nessisitat that your very first character on Arelith ever couldn't start in the Underdark - After that once you'd rolled them regardless of your RPR you could start anywhere, and if you were rapidly noticed you'd be able to gift earlier.

This would lock the more difficult PvP frequenting concepts, Slaves, Drow, Pirates, behind atiny gateway to ensure what can sometimes be a poor experience wasn't what new players ran headlong into.

I'd not actually mandate -spending- a gift, having previously unlocked any reward would be sufficent for the lifetimeof the account, so this wouldn't affect any existing players.

[Void]

I was advocating that the Underdark Start, be locked behind a 20 RPR -or- having previously aquired one minor gift.

That means anyone could still start as any evil aligned character in Cordor, and you couldn't start in the underdark as a good alignedcharacter.

Gating things behind RPR and a minor award - especially basic things - gives strong negative impression to newcomers, and discourages them from playing.

Cordor is also a harder place to start in for evil characters, unless you're one of specific archetypes. The archetype being "evil socialite", "lying manipulator" and so on. Someone who can wear mask of neutrality. Anything beyond that will be kicked out of the city very quickly. You could also play a bluffomancer with disguises, but a beginner wouldn't know how to max the skill with arelith mechanics.

Basically, it is unclear what you're trying to achieve here. Are you trying to reduce population of evil characters? Do keep in mind that they are not not automatically villains or antagonists. Because what you're proposing is denying evil characters access to the hub specifically designed for evil characters. Which doesn't make much sense to me.

[JustMonika]

Basically, it is unclear what you're trying to achieve here. Are you trying to reduce population of evil characters? Do keep in mind that they are not not automatically villains or antagonists.

I am trying to ensure [In this hypothetical nonexistant server.] that all new players, that is, every single player that has never played on the server before, starts in -one- place.

That there is a unified welcome to Arelith process, one entry point,and one specific starting point in Arelith which introduces players to the server, the rules, and the setting.

Subsequent to having going through this introduction and played any character to level 16 [And I was simply using this to make it easy to link to the existing gift system, not for any other reason] the player would be judged to have got to know Arelith, and would be free to play Arelith on 'Hard Mode'.

This means new adventurers hugely maximise regardless of timezone having other new adventurers to roleplay with.
That means only one city needs to be heavily admined to be 'Newbie Friendy'
That means anyone who really enjoys helping new players needs to know exactly where to go to be able to do that.
That means DMs can easily monitor that one location to ensure the new player experience is good.


This would have the side effect of looking the underdark behind a tiny gate yes. Some people can make level 16 in three hours. I think a week is more realistic, but it is a small gate.
This is a downside - However concepts such a Drow, Slaves, and PvP happy antagonists often require a bit of skill to get right, or alternately can be an unfriendly experience for new players.
We have frequently had issues with new players being judged to be 'Doing it wrong' by the Drow Community - The Underdark is a more complex place to play in, with more PvP in the streets than you'll ever see in Cordor.


Really, if I was making a server from scratch the 'Starting city' would be friendly to everyone, monster/drow/human alike, and there would be other locationsfor these factions to congrate seperately in that wern't the game start. However we have Cordor, and Cordo has been established to be a No Go Zone, For Outcasts, Slaves, Drow, Monsters, Etc.

And restricting it to the Undercity only would bemore unworkable, I think. - That'd make no new Elves or Hin or Dwarves, and mean good aligned human struggled, and I think the Underdark is a lot less popular setting than the surface for FR people.

[Irongron]

Really, if I was making a server from scratch the 'Starting city' would be friendly to everyone, monster/drow/human alike, and there would be other locationsfor these factions to congrate seperately in that wern't the game start. However we have Cordor, and Cordo has been established to be a No Go Zone, For Outcasts, Slaves, Drow, Monsters, Etc.

I think the replies here have been very clear. There is not going to be the change of server direction you are asking for, and I'm committed to the direction of Arelith's development. I would encourage anyone who wants to make a server from scratch to by all means do so, or to try out other servers if Arelith is not to their tastes. I'm really proud of where we are, and of our direction.

This topic is now locked.