New Raid Rules

[SkipiusEsq]

The new raid/non-raid rules make no sense to me from an RP standpoint; perhaps someone can explain it better. I appreciate that if you are going to kill NPCs, you need DM involvement. But what I don't understand is the idea that as long as you are careful not to kill NPCs, then it is not considered a raid or otherwise required DM oversight (I appreciate DM oversight is suggested, but not required). NPCs are supposed to be treated IC as being actually people, not just game mechanics. So if a monster character goes into a surface settlement, those NPCs would not just stand around (as they do mechanically), they would act. Similarly, a surface character (at least some) that go into a UD settlement area would face similar actions by NPCs. I think any time someone is going outside the "proper" area, there should be DM involvement to make certain that NPCs are also appropriately reacting. You wouldn't have a bunch of guards just stand around and watch someone get assassinated for example.

On the point of the rules applying doubly to monster races also doesn't take into account the full RP (again, IMHO). While a surface human might be able to pass in the UD, a race such as a surface elf would not absent a slave collar. The NPC drow would certainly attack that surface elf on sight. Even non-drow would see the surface elf as a chance to gain some gold by capturing and selling to the drow.

If the heart of the rules is intended to foster RP, this rule does quite the opposite. Now it is perfectly fair within the rules to have a party of 4 or less go into an NPC populated area and kill PCs (as long as they are careful not to kill NPCs).

[AstralUniverse]

So the problem is that NPCs who should react to some situations, dont. Because... they are NPCs. So before you storm into a settlement screen with NPCs with your large party and do things that would realistically cause these NPCs to attack you, so you need to schedule that with the DM team. It makes a lot of sense to me, and I've participated in many raids, before and after the DM-permission rules added and I can tell you I remember a lot of mess and people leaving with bad taste in their mouth when things are done spontaneous with no DM supervision, even if the players involved are very considerate and trying to make it fun, it's just not coordinated and not fun for the others.

[Exordius]

Perhaps the npc's could be given a script which would allow them to tell who is Surface, who is Pirate, and who is Andunor? I know one of the mmo's i used to play had a faction system that did just that, when you spawn a new character in a specific region that character gets tagged with a faction affiliation.

Anyone with that faction tag entering an area that is listed as enemies with that faction will prompt all npc's to instantly turn hostile and attack until those with that faction tag are dead, flee, or win. So if you start in any surface city you would get a Surface tag, if you started in the UD you would get a UD tag, and if you started in Sencliff you would be given a Pirate tag. None of these tags would be view-able by players only the npc's would be able to tell the difference.

If you enter any region or city controlled by a faction that is your enemy they try to kill you and same for the them if they show up in your neighborhood.

[MissEvelyn]

Perhaps the npc's could be given a script which would allow them to tell who is Surface, who is Pirate, and who is Andunor? I know one of the mmo's i used to play had a faction system that did just that, when you spawn a new character in a specific region that character gets tagged with a faction affiliation.

Anyone with that faction tag entering an area that is listed as enemies with that faction will prompt all npc's to instantly turn hostile and attack until those with that faction tag are dead, flee, or win. So if you start in any surface city you would get a Surface tag, if you started in the UD you would get a UD tag, and if you started in Sencliff you would be given a Pirate tag. None of these tags would be view-able by players only the npc's would be able to tell the difference.

If you enter any region or city controlled by a faction that is your enemy they try to kill you and same for the them if they show up in your neighborhood.

That would hamper roleplay greatly, as you wouldn't be able to control the NPCs. To give an example, if you wanted to publicly execute someone from an enemy faction, how would you stop the NPC guard from interfering?

[Exordius]

True... maybe if such an event was called for a dm would be present to oversee it and prevent the npc's from taking action?

[In Sorrow We Trust]

It doesn't really seem like this ruling is any different. Am I missing something?

[Watchful Glare]

Perhaps the npc's could be given a script which would allow them to tell who is Surface, who is Pirate, and who is Andunor? I know one of the mmo's i used to play had a faction system that did just that, when you spawn a new character in a specific region that character gets tagged with a faction affiliation.

Anyone with that faction tag entering an area that is listed as enemies with that faction will prompt all npc's to instantly turn hostile and attack until those with that faction tag are dead, flee, or win. So if you start in any surface city you would get a Surface tag, if you started in the UD you would get a UD tag, and if you started in Sencliff you would be given a Pirate tag. None of these tags would be view-able by players only the npc's would be able to tell the difference.

If you enter any region or city controlled by a faction that is your enemy they try to kill you and same for the them if they show up in your neighborhood.

That would hamper roleplay greatly, as you wouldn't be able to control the NPCs. To give an example, if you wanted to publicly execute someone from an enemy faction, how would you stop the NPC guard from interfering?

Perhaps give characters with local authority the ability to give minor commands to NPCs (such as if you play the captain of the guard of a settlement, it'd make sense) such as stopping them from attacking in the abeforementioned case

[Void]

Perhaps the npc's could be given a script which would allow them to tell who is Surface, who is Pirate, and who is Andunor?

And then what? They can only do one thing - attack on sight. And maybe throw few scripted responses beforehand.
The thing is, arelith is not supposed to be an MMO, but a RP server. So "(idiot) NPC guard" behavior is not gonna cut it here, they need a DM.

The reason why they need a DM is because NPCs are supposed to be characters, with personalities and are supposed to exhibit intelligent behavior. And so far there's no AI tech that can do it. It is next to westworld level, pretty much.

[Hazard]

What's new about these rules? I thought these were the current rules.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

You could flag certain PCs to enable certain ambush scripting. Upon entering a settlement if they didnt meet a bluff prereq it would spawn four or five guards, the guards could say something scripted that was general

"Your shouldnt be here"


"Halt! Youve violated the law!"


Etc.

Not an immediate hostile, but raising enough of a stink that players would take immediate notice. That would get the ball rolling pretty well.

If they pass the bluff check then anyone would treat them as they do normally unless a PC discovered their nature.

[xanrael]

Think there is a difference in method used.

A couple of drow entering a surface settlement under disguise/stealth through a different method than the main gate, doing a bit of mischief away from the guards, and then immediately leaving would be different than strutting through the main gate calling someone out. The former has the PCs avoiding contact with NPCs at all costs while the latter has them treating the NPCs like air. You could easily reverse the scenario too for surface elves in Andunor. That's not to say the former should be frequent either.

Or at least that's what I got out of the announcement.

[garrbear758]

Think there is a difference in method used.

A couple of drow entering a surface settlement under disguise/stealth through a different method than the main gate, doing a bit of mischief away from the guards, and then immediately leaving would be different than strutting through the main gate calling someone out. The former has the PCs avoiding contact with NPCs at all costs while the latter has them treating the NPCs like air. You could easily reverse the scenario too for surface elves in Andunor. That's not to say the former should be frequent either.

Or at least that's what I got out of the announcement.

I believe this is correct. Just use some common sense with it.

[Void]

You could flag certain PCs to enable certain ambush scripting. Upon entering a settlement if they didnt meet a bluff prereq it would spawn four or five guards, the guards could say something scripted that was general

"Your shouldnt be here"


"Halt! Youve violated the law!"


Etc.

Not an immediate hostile, but raising enough of a stink that players would take immediate notice. That would get the ball rolling pretty well.

If they pass the bluff check then anyone would treat them as they do normally unless a PC discovered their nature.

The "invading" people will farm guards when no settlement players are around.

I saw this kind of scripting on BGTSCC. Doesn't' really work well.

The only useful scripting would be making guards auto-attack and imprison shapeshifters, but that's the extent of it.

[Exordius]

BGTSCC

Wait you played on that server? That's where i came from lol.

[SkipiusEsq]

What's new about these rules? I thought these were the current rules.

Grumpy's message on the Raiding rules specifically says "Whilst we are laxing the rules on what counts as a 'Raid'" so there is definitely a change.

I guess I am just perplexed as to the reason for this change. You are now allowed to have a group of 4 drow walk into Cordor, kill a few PCs, and leave. As long as you don't kill any NPCs, you are all good, despite the presence of those NPCs and the fact that in actual RP they would no doubt fight against the drow. It is why I always believed the "get DM permission" rule existed in the first place - to avoid these kind of situations without valid RP reasons and to allow the DMs to control NPCs to respond.

I am also perplexed at the rule applying "double for monster races attacking surface settlements." If a bunch of Sun Elves want to attack the Underdark, the rule should apply just as completely to them. There should be no "double" application for monster races.

[Void]

You are now allowed to have a group of 4 drow walk into Cordor, kill a few PCs, and leave. As long as you don't kill any NPCs, you are all good, despite the presence of those NPCs and the fact that in actual RP they would no doubt fight against the drow.

I'm very sure that this is not what the rule was meant to convey.

Besides, this is still a thing:
http://wiki.arelith.com/Playing_any_UD_race

"Here's the thing: when you play a monster race, expect to be treated as a monster race. Every civilized town for RP purposes can be considered to have a number of residents. If you got an ooc warning about hanging around a populated surface town if you are an underdarker, thank your lucky stars because the IC interaction would be: "look, a monster, everyone kill it." and then having the entire local militia attack until you all died. In fact, if you're playing a monster race, we're permitting it based on the understanding that you will react in just this way...avoiding towns upon fear of death.

Goblins, Kobolds, Drow, Orogs, etc, are considered a "Monster Race". Part of the RP of being allowed (note the very careful phrasing) to continue to play a monster race is rping as if you are a monster, an unwelcome member in traditional surface society. If you can't do that, there's absolutely no rule that says I can't delete your character for bastardizing the role play of the entire server. In fact, ask around, I will do it without hesitation or remorse if I feel as if in any way your rp is corrupting the vision of RP for the server.

[The GrumpyCat]

Hello!

I knew this thread would pop up!

I'll try and clarify a few bits

'So GrumpyCat... what's changed here?'
The change to the rules basicaly means that you do not, for example, need to scheudal a 'rescue' situation TWO WEEKS in advance. Sure, as the thread says, you should really get a DM to oversee. But you don't need to complete a pile of paperwork to just continue some roleplay.
Furthermore we were finding that the existing defintion for what constituted a 'Raid' was vauge. And the problem with that is that it's quite a difficult thing to quantify, and even if you do it can be broken by accident, or be worked around by rules lawers to be within the word, but not spirit, of the law. It was causing a massive headache, so I decided it would be best just to make it more 'loose', and return it to how it was before - for the most part.

But the rules still say that if your planning on doing any sort of 'mass' rp in a settled area, you really should seek DM oversite/permission. People who do mass pvp, and do not seek DM oversight/permission will still be penalized. It's just this way it's a bit more organic.

'Ok so that means that monster races can just waltz into cordor and start murdering folk?'
Firstly - see Void's post, and his quote - No. REGUARDLESS of their intent (and honestly it's more likely that drow doing that are seeking tea and crumpets, sadly) monster races should not be openly walking into Cordor. A small group (say threeish) might b eable to sneak in invisable/disguised/sneaking) sure (though I wouldn't want to see it happen too much). A large group openly wanting to attack Cordor should seek out a DM for oversite and permission. All that's changed is that they don't neccesarly have to do so two weeks in advance.

WITH THAT SAID!

Keep in mind on that same post I said
a) We really recommend you don't do big pvp sessions in settlments anyway
b) We would like to see such kept rare, and only with very good rp behind them
and most of all
c) I said oversight and PERMISSION. The DM may well say, 'No. Don't do that.' In which case we'd hope races would abide.

'It seems that there standards for surfacers entering Andunor, and Andunorians entering surface settlmens are different. That's not fair!'

No, it's not. But there are good game play and lore reasons for this, and I could go into them, but that's a very long post.
What I will say is that, whilst Andunor npcs might be a /little/ more permissive reguarding surfacer pcs down there- I do not want to see 10 surface elves tromping down into the main city to cause trouble either (again, unless they have permission/oversight from a DM)

Truthfully this changes very little, it just makes things a little more fluid and easy, and removes a rule that was vauge, and more often weaponized than respected.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Hello!

I knew this thread would pop up!

I'll try and clarify a few bits

'So GrumpyCat... what's changed here?'
The change to the rules basicaly means that you do not, for example, need to scheudal a 'rescue' situation TWO WEEKS in advance. Sure, as the thread says, you should really get a DM to oversee. But you don't need to complete a pile of paperwork to just continue some roleplay.
Furthermore we were finding that the existing defintion for what constituted a 'Raid' was vauge. And the problem with that is that it's quite a difficult thing to quantify, and even if you do it can be broken by accident, or be worked around by rules lawers to be within the word, but not spirit, of the law. It was causing a massive headache, so I decided it would be best just to make it more 'loose', and return it to how it was before - for the most part.

But the rules still say that if your planning on doing any sort of 'mass' rp in a settled area, you really should seek DM oversite/permission. People who do mass pvp, and do not seek DM oversight/permission will still be penalized. It's just this way it's a bit more organic.

'Ok so that means that monster races can just waltz into cordor and start murdering folk?'
Firstly - see Void's post, and his quote - No. REGUARDLESS of their intent (and honestly it's more likely that drow doing that are seeking tea and crumpets, sadly) monster races should not be openly walking into Cordor. A small group (say threeish) might b eable to sneak in invisable/disguised/sneaking) sure (though I wouldn't want to see it happen too much). A large group openly wanting to attack Cordor should seek out a DM for oversite and permission. All that's changed is that they don't neccesarly have to do so two weeks in advance.

WITH THAT SAID!

Keep in mind on that same post I said
a) We really recommend you don't do big pvp sessions in settlments anyway
b) We would like to see such kept rare, and only with very good rp behind them
and most of all
c) I said oversight and PERMISSION. The DM may well say, 'No. Don't do that.' In which case we'd hope races would abide.

'It seems that there standards for surfacers entering Andunor, and Andunorians entering surface settlmens are different. That's not fair!'

No, it's not. But there are good game play and lore reasons for this, and I could go into them, but that's a very long post.
What I will say is that, whilst Andunor npcs might be a /little/ more permissive reguarding surfacer pcs down there- I do not want to see 10 surface elves tromping down into the main city to cause trouble either (again, unless they have permission/oversight from a DM)

Truthfully this changes very little, it just makes things a little more fluid and easy, and removes a rule that was vauge, and more often weaponized than respected.

Hey grumpycat,

Can you clarify how this change may apply to smaller areas such as the radiant heart, church of Bane, underdark outpost, or darrowdeep?


Its my understanding before they were all regarded under the raiding rules. So I'm wondering how these may be affected

[The GrumpyCat]

Bit of a vauge question as it depends on the sort of rp you mean, and also the sort of area

1) If you plan to actually DAMAGE the area and attack the npcs, reguardless of whether that's the Cordor or Greyhammer or The Outpost, follow the 'Raid' rules and contact the Dms.

2) If you're wandering around with a large group of folk, and think pvp is going to go down in those areas - Well honestly I'd try and contact the DMs too.

3) Ask yourself what the chances are of catching low level, uninvolved parties in those areas. Is ruining that players day REALLY worth it? If you think there's a good chance of that happening- please think twice.

4) This isn't a case of ,'If you start pvp at the outpost without a DM u will be banned!!!!!!!111111' But if we see groups/people using this laxation of the rules to do silly things, like massive attacks on settlments, or psudosettlments, every week - we will be Having Words.

I do hope that comes close to answering your question?

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Bit of a vauge question as it depends on the sort of rp you mean, and also the sort of area

1) If you plan to actually DAMAGE the area and attack the npcs, reguardless of whether that's the Cordor or Greyhammer or The Outpost, follow the 'Raid' rules and contact the Dms.

2) If you're wandering around with a large group of folk, and think pvp is going to go down in those areas - Well honestly I'd try and contact the DMs too.

3) Ask yourself what the chances are of catching low level, uninvolved parties in those areas. Is ruining that players day REALLY worth it? If you think there's a good chance of that happening- please think twice.

4) This isn't a case of ,'If you start pvp at the outpost without a DM u will be banned!!!!!!!111111' But if we see groups/people using this laxation of the rules to do silly things, like massive attacks on settlments, or psudosettlments, every week - we will be Having Words.

I do hope that comes close to answering your question?

That actually helps a lot.

A raid consisting of 5 or more PCs should then just consider contacting a DM if they plan on PvPing in that area, correct?


What about repeated attacks not on NPCs but lets say, 4 individuals plan on attacking PCs in those areas between 24 and 48 hours later on Pcs only.
consistently?



My assumption would be to try and get DM oversight and make sure they are operating within normal rules as they should normally.


Basically my worry is pseudosettlements being raided consistently by actual settlements for two weeks while the pseudosettlement having to wait for two weeks for a DM to complete a single settlement raid, for example.

[garrbear758]

1) If you plan to actually DAMAGE the area and attack the npcs, reguardless of whether that's the Cordor or Greyhammer or The Outpost, follow the 'Raid' rules and contact the Dms.
-Grumpycat

The Outpost being a pseudo-settlement would be treated the same as a real settlement as far as raids.

[The GrumpyCat]

What about repeated attacks not on NPCs but lets say, 4 individuals plan on attacking PCs in those areas between 24 and 48 hours later on Pcs only.
consistently?

Well, that's not really to do with the raid rules at all. If thos four individuals were doing it in say, the middle of Arelith forest, it would still be as bad if they were doing it to say,. Greyhammer.

Generally speaking words like 'repeated attacks' never lead anywhere good.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

What about repeated attacks not on NPCs but lets say, 4 individuals plan on attacking PCs in those areas between 24 and 48 hours later on Pcs only.
consistently?

Well, that's not really to do with the raid rules at all. If thos four individuals were doing it in say, the middle of Arelith forest, it would still be as bad if they were doing it to say,. Greyhammer.

Generally speaking words like 'repeated attacks' never lead anywhere good.

I mean I'm not really using anything as an example, its just a hypothetical


But sounds like you are implying to report individuals that were to do something like that so I gotchu. I just wanted a bit of clarification on that detail.

Thanks!!

[The GrumpyCat]

Do keep in mind though, for some areas repeated meetings are bound to occur by accident.

The outpost is a good example actually. Any surfacer wanting to go down to the underdark may well pass through there. Likewise the Nexus falls for Underdarkers. So if you run into the same people twice in a few days that doesn't neccesarly mean they are 'hunting' underdarkers/surfacers, they could just be there because it's a travel hub.

[MissEvelyn]

BGTSCC

Wait you played on that server? That's where i came from lol.

Also an ex-NWN2 player here! =) I mainly played on DB, but I dabbled once in a while.