Rogue Leathers

[Za-Lord~s Guard]

As the pinnacle of a very involved crafting process, the Rogue Leathers item from tailoring is kind of lackluster. Requiring a total of 876 crafting points, and a large number of materials which range from frustrating to collect in decent amount to expensive (and needing to craft through several iterations of different vests to reach the final version) it's not unreasonable to expect this armor to be the granddaddy of sneaky stuff. So let's look at those stats.

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Armor Bonus: +4 (AC Armor Modifier)
Enhancement Bonus: Dexterity +1
Use: Rogue's Cunning (3) 1 use/day
Spell Resistance: 26
Runic
Only Usable By: Rogue
Increased UMD Requirement (55) 

And for comparison, let's look at the Enchanted Flexible Leather Suit item, which was one step before this one.

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Armor Bonus: +3 (AC Armor Modifier)
Improved Saving Throw: Reflex +1
Skill Bonus: Hide +5
Skill Bonus: Move Silently +5
Skill Bonus: Tumble +5 

You'll notice that the Rogue Leathers drop the hide and move silently bonus entirely; which is pretty detrimental. The loss of tumble doesn't mean much of anything, since tumble from gear doesn't help AC the way innate ranks do.

So what is gained from crafting these expensive leathers? The most notable things are the Spell Resistance and the Rogue's Cunning ability.

Rogue's Cunning has a very short duration, and only lasts around 5~ minutes. This means that although it gives a larger bonus to hide/ms than the Enchanted Flexible Leather Suit, it's only giving that bonus for 5 minutes for each rest you take - as opposed to a full time bonus from the gear.

The spell resistance is nice, but it's a little redundant; everyone is going to want the SR helmet from art crafting, as it's way less work to get.

Because of all that, a rogue character will be better served for 90% of cases by wearing a lesser piece of gear (either the Enchanted Flexible Leather Suit, or the Armor of the Wild). That makes me think this piece has missed its mark a bit.

If I were to suggest improvements, I would slap the +5 Hide/MS onto the Rogue Leathers and (if possible) switch Rogue's Cunning over to be on a cooldown or multiple uses/day. The spell resistance on the armor could probably go away without a problem.

[AstralUniverse]

So what is gained from crafting these expensive leathers? The most notable things are the Spell Resistance and the Rogue's Cunning ability.

And 1 higher ac, and 1 dex. Also worth mentioning that Rogue's Cunning is a very powerful spell and does not 'weight' in terms of rune crafting. I like it as it is a lot and I think the recipe is in a good spot.

[Freyason]

and runic

[Za-Lord~s Guard]

And 1 higher ac, and 1 dex. Also worth mentioning that Rogue's Cunning is a very powerful spell and does not 'weight' in terms of rune crafting. I like it as it is a lot and I think the recipe is in a good spot.

and runic

Good points, let's compare against an item of roughly similar cost to produce then.


Ranger's Runic Studded Leather, which costs 750 craft points (Rogue Leathers are 876 total) to produce and is not a nested recipe (though there is a version that can be made from an existing lesser version of the ranger armor). No adamantine is required for either of these ranger studded leather recipes.

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Armor Bonus: +6 (AC Armor Modifier)
Damage Immunity: Slashing 10%
Enhancement Bonus: Dexterity +2
Arcane Spell Failure: 20% increased
Use: Barkskin (12) 1 Use/Day
Only Usable By: Ranger
Increased UMD Requirement (55)

That's effectively a 1/day wand of Barkskin for +4 AC (12 hour duration), a full DEX mod increase (2 dex) and a +6 AC bonus. The arcane spell failure doesn't impair the divine casting of a ranger at all, so it's...not really a factor. Each element of this armor is useful full time for the class using it, and no bonuses from the "previous" version of the armor are lost with the upgrade.

[Imperatrix]

My rogue uses the objectively superior Armor of the Wilds as they are an elf. Rogue Leathers are only worth having for the Rogue's Cunning, so I used that runic to weight reduce it and only ever equip it when I need the ability.

They're not good, though they're your best option if you're a human who can't afford the 35 UMD for Armor of the Wilds (which would be sad since you already need 30 UMD to use the best rogue weapon, Dead Man's Cross.) Personally I'd see the SR removed, AC increased to 5, and the Hide/MS from the previous tier restored. I also feel the +1 dex is more or less redundant given how many other items have +2 dex on them. It's not hard at all to cap your dex.

[Za-Lord~s Guard]

My rogue uses the objectively superior Armor of the Wilds as they are an elf. Rogue Leathers are only worth having for the Rogue's Cunning, so I used that runic to weight reduce it and only ever equip it when I need the ability.

They're not good, though they're your best option if you're a human who can't afford the 35 UMD for Armor of the Wilds (which would be sad since you already need 30 UMD to use the best rogue weapon, Dead Man's Cross.) Personally I'd see the SR removed, AC increased to 5, and the Hide/MS from the previous tier restored. I also feel the +1 dex is more or less redundant given how many other items have +2 dex on them. It's not hard at all to cap your dex.

I'm doing pretty much the same. UMD'd armor of the wilds. I have some spare crafting materials and started making a set of rogue's leathers to be de-weighted and otherwise sit unused in my inventory until I need rogue's cunning for 5 minutes too. It was realizing how sad that is for a "top tier" crafting item to be handled that prompted this feedback.

[Archnon]

Hadn't thought about deweighting them.. they can be double tuned with a masterwork rune.

I will say that they sell like hotcakes at a high price point for being inferior.

[Za-Lord~s Guard]

There are a lot of popular gimmick items that sell really well, but it doesn't really reflect their true value in terms of stats.

Looking at some of the armor used by the PrCs, I think the Penumbral Vestment for Shadow Dancers is an example of a good but not overpowered piece:

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Armor Bonus: +3 (AC Armor Modifier)
Enchantment Bonus: Constitution +2
Skill Bonus: Move Silently +4
Skill Bonus: Hide +4
Shadow Shield (13) 2 uses/day
Only Usable By: Shadowdancer
Increased UMD Requirement (45)

This only costs 335 craft points to make, and nothing expensive other than 1 adamantine ingot. The shadow shield 2/day means that the character has a built in means of immunizing themselves to a variety of effects and gaining +5 AC twice per rest for a total of 26 minutes.

The +2 CON is a stat the character would probably have trouble capping without sacrificing unisaves and other slots for dweomercraft (as opposed to DEX, which is already pretty easily capped with Fine Elven Boots and similar).

The skill bonuses for hide/MS are constant, as opposed to the only 5 minute boost that Rogue's Cunning provides to these stats for the Rogue Leathers.

Aside from the built-in AC being lower (made up for by the Shadow Shield in part), this is an all around better item than the Rogue Leathers.

[Wuthering]

I guess the question is, is it intended to be a less than ideal item for general use that gives you an extremely desirable and otherwise unobtainable spell? I can see that being the intent based on other items in the game... Some devs seem to want you to make difficult decisions and switch items out situationally. That makes sense from a game mechanics standpoint but isn't exactly fun to play and can be particularly frustrating when you see other races and classes have items that are designed to be "best in slot" and have no drawbacks.