Raise RPR to 30

[Aren]

I wasn't even aware of this issue until recently and it seems like a pretty big one. People making characters with the SOLE PURPOSE of deleting them for a reward. Soley for some stupid gimmicky reward, the current system encourages it even. Make a powerbuild with no RP motivation what-so-ever, probably grab the gift of humility for -2 ECL because who cares, you're deleting this nothing character anyways. Even among people, I'd consider good RPers are taking advantage of this utterly lame tactic.

Go on the test server and talk to people, you get a clear understanding of where their priorities are. "This awesome build only works on this race, better go grind to 19 and roll". Greatly taking away from the immersive world of Arelith. Generally, it's not even for the race that they want to RP so much as the stats and gimmicks it has to offer. So my suggestion is to raise the Epic Sacrifice to RPR 30 if they want that roll.

Isn't the suggestion box closed?

Don't hate the player, hate the game. People roll GoH warlocks and powergrind to 26 because the award system is inherently *flawed*. This is the most efficient way to unlock the custom race you want for your character. Do you think RPR 30+ players are bastions of roleplaying purity who wouldn't dare lower themselves to, ugh, circle grind? The solution is to rethink the award system, not gate it behind a difficult to reach RPR level.

I love your brain Liareth.

[Draco]

But I'd really say just do a bit of a forum search and call it quits. This conversation happens every month or two, it's basically the same conversations, the same kinds of people think the same things, everyone gets upset, and it gets locked.

I imagined that may be the case, I looked but finding anything in the sea of topics on these forums is a nightmare. Whenever a change is suggested that is considered as some kind of a nerf, people will always be upset. They feel they invested X amount of time/effort all for nothing, that they've been cheated out of it. I get that. I think we can keep this civil can come to some sort of compromise at least that benefits the time spent RPing over time spent grinding. Don't need to tick off the people doing what they're doing, just give them an incentive to go another route.

[Aren]

I just got an idea.

How about rewards for RP?

Maybe not exp or gold or resources or abilities, or whatever other in game thing. What about using the rewards as rewards for actual noticeable RP situations?

That way if people want rewards, they don't only have to circle grind, they can also RP.

I know it's too simple hehe.

Who decides what constitutes RP that's worth rewarding? The potential for accusations of favoritism in this scenario would not be worth the hassle. The player to DM ratio would not allow for everyone to have their roleplay adequately reviewed I think?

[Flower Power]

Speaking as someone whose RPR is above 20, I think gating more things behind 30+ RPR is a terrible idea. People will play Arelith the way they have fun playing Arelith - and as long as their fun isn't at the expense of someone else's, that's fine. People rolling up characters just to delete them really doesn't have any major impact on anyone's gameplay experience. Just ignore them and focus on the people who, well, aren't.

[Draco]

Who decides what constitutes RP that's worth rewarding? The potential for accusations of favoritism in this scenario would not be worth the hassle. The player to DM ratio would not allow for everyone to have their roleplay adequately reviewed I think?

What if. . . Every hour that tick pops off giving you adventure Exp and so on. What if there were some kind of point reward system were say if you weren't in combat within that last hour you got a point, but if you were in combat half a point. If you wrote X amount of characters within said time, bonus points based on half of X.

[Void]

But I'd really say just do a bit of a forum search and call it quits. This conversation happens every month or two, it's basically the same conversations, the same kinds of people think the same things, everyone gets upset, and it gets locked.

I imagined that may be the case, I looked but finding anything in the sea of topics on these forums is a nightmare. Whenever a change is suggested that is considered as some kind of a nerf, people will always be upset. They feel they invested X amount of time/effort all for nothing, that they've been cheated out of it. I get that. I think we can keep this civil can come to some sort of compromise at least that benefits the time spent RPing over time spent grinding. Don't need to tick off the people doing what they're doing, just give them an incentive to go another route.

We had this discussion before (even dms voiced their opinion) and it likely won't remain civil.

Long story short is that epic sacrifice mechanic is mostly created for cycling characters so things don't go stale and no decent alternative exists.

Who decides what constitutes RP that's worth rewarding? The potential for accusations of favoritism in this scenario would not be worth the hassle. The player to DM ratio would not allow for everyone to have their roleplay adequately reviewed I think?

What if. . . Every hour that tick pops off giving you adventure Exp and so on. What if there were some kind of point reward system were say if you weren't in combat within that last hour you got a point, but if you were in combat half a point. If you wrote X amount of characters within said time, bonus points based on half of X.

And for what reason would that system be trying to ensure everybody follows oath of non-violence?

The mechanical effect is that people will either idle on the streets to get the reward, or ignore it completely and continue as usual. Adventure XP, by the way, is fairly useless, as you always end up swimming in it, with no posisbility of ever receiving all of it as normal xp.

[Aren]

Who decides what constitutes RP that's worth rewarding? The potential for accusations of favoritism in this scenario would not be worth the hassle. The player to DM ratio would not allow for everyone to have their roleplay adequately reviewed I think?

What if. . . Every hour that tick pops off giving you adventure Exp and so on. What if there were some kind of point reward system were say if you weren't in combat within that last hour you got a point, but if you were in combat half a point. If you wrote X amount of characters within said time, bonus points based on half of X.

You could have that point system without punishing people for being in combat. You could keep the epic sacrifice system as is, and add the point system you're speaking of. That way, you'll eventually be rewarded for playing a character with a long story arc (e.g. longer online time / more RP) and those like me who can pump out humility characters that add both to the life and the economy of your character, wouldn't have our fun ruined. Also, I have a strong suspicion that people would be doing this even if the gift of humility was removed. Even without humility, it is possible to get to 26 in less than a week. Humility just makes the initial levels go faster, thus removing said humility characters from the initial dungeons / writs more quickly.

[AstralUniverse]

Remove gift of Humility from Arelith once and for all.

[Aren]

Remove gift of Humility from Arelith once and for all.

Those are some great arguments there.

[Draco]

The mechanical effect is that people will either idle on the streets to get the reward, or ignore it completely and continue as usual. Adventure XP, by the way, is fairly useless, as you always end up swimming in it, with no posisbility of ever receiving all of it as normal xp.

Oh don't be such a negative nelly, I wasn't referring to adventure xp in the sense of leveling. But you won't just be able to idle without interacting to get the adventure XP. This point system could work alongside it just for the purpose of not letting people benefit from it by idling.

You could keep the epic sacrifice system as is, and add the point system you're speaking of.

I did mean that yea, everything as is with this added.

[AstralUniverse]

Remove gift of Humility from Arelith once and for all.

Those are some great arguments there.

Was this supposed to be sarcastic?

I did not bother reading all of your small argument. I simply think gift of humility should be removed because it doesnt do ANYTHING other than facilitating characters for epic sacrifice faster.

[Aren]

Remove gift of Humility from Arelith once and for all.

Those are some great arguments there.

Was this supposed to be sarcastic?

I did not bother reading all of your small argument. I simply think gift of humility should be removed because it doesnt do ANYTHING other than facilitating characters for epic sacrifice faster.

Yes. It was.

And how is that an issue?

[NauVaseline]

I simply think gift of humility should be removed because it doesnt do ANYTHING other than facilitating characters for epic sacrifice faster.

Your original post that he quoted makes it sound like it's some kind of menacing dragon that has been burning the town fields for months
when in fact it is totally benign and:

Also, in my opinion, somebody else's motivation shouldnt' matter to you. Only their character. It is also not good to assume that people who grind or powerbuild cannot make a character you'll enjoy interacting with.

[DM Rex]

- ECL is also available as part of the current reward systems at all levels. And can allow for an ease of leveling after you've already had and sacrificed a character before. This can be ideal for a variety of reasons. Limited playtime, having already seen the content and not wanting to grind through it for the same length are a few examples.

It would be nice if we could be a bit less offensive/defensive to one another and continue a thought process rather than fighting one another.

[Aeralad]

Who decides what constitutes RP that's worth rewarding? The potential for accusations of favoritism in this scenario would not be worth the hassle. The player to DM ratio would not allow for everyone to have their roleplay adequately reviewed I think?

Well adding a thing just adds a thing. It won't take away rolling. It's a carrot, not a stick.
It would also be another method for doing things, as opposed to ONLY rolling.
RPR can have the same evaluation, and the same accusations of favoritism. Somehow we stomach it.

But another point that seems to not have been mentioned in this thread is that RPR 30 - from my interpretation of the wiki - is a bit different. It's not just oneself, it's a bunch of people. I think that people have generally agreed that is...arduous. To the point that making things behind RPR 30 is...over the top.

[AstralUniverse]

Trust me, I wouldnt initiate this thread and I can give you some strategies on how to get to lvl 30 fast without negative ecl if you like.

The thing is... I dont see any point any point for negative ecl gifts anymore because of A-exp, writs, etc. Leveling to epics is easy. Gift of humility is a MASSIVE nerf to the character that is not picked by anyone unless the initial purpose of the character in creation IS to make it to 26 as fast as possible. It is also only picked by several specific classes/races who benefit from it. You wont see a melee character with humility, farming to 26. You'll only see it on casters with summons. I'm calling it BS.

All the same, you can leave the gift there but with just -1 ecl or no negative ecl to make it (much less popular obviously) "HUMILITY".

[Void]

Oh don't be such a negative nelly, I wasn't referring to adventure xp in the sense of leveling. But you won't just be able to idle without interacting to get the adventure XP. This point system could work alongside it just for the purpose of not letting people benefit from it by idling.

So far it seriously sounds like trying to tell that "combat is bad" in a combat-oriented game and want all players to adhere some sort of "gold standard", except that standard also covers their motivation.

Why not stick with "live and let live?". It is nobody's business why someone is running a goblin druid.

Additionally forced social interaction RP gets very cringe-inducing quickly (forced means interacting for the sake of reward). So, I'd rather not have a brainless script try to enforce specific RP philosophy.

[The GrumpyCat]

This is on our radar. And the situation is being looked at.

[Aren]

This is on our radar. And the situation is being looked at.

How so, if one may inquire?

New system?

Or players leveling fast?

If I am doing something wrong by making characters to level while having "down time", I would love to know that I am doing something wrong.

[Flower Power]

having already seen the content and not wanting to grind through it for the same length are a few examples.

This is an underappreciated argument, I think. I've been on Arelith since before the Arelith-Amia split, and if I have to spend yet another 3 hours grinding FoD/Wharftown Boys/Sea Bandits ad nauseum again to get my character to a decent level, I may very well scream.

[Draco]

This is on our radar. And the situation is being looked at.

How so, if one may inquire?

New system?

Or players leveling fast?

I think he's being tactfully cryptic.




Well, that's good enough for me anyway.

[Irongron]

I think he's being tactfully cryptic.

For a reason I think. If we said that we were about to remove/change the system, we'd see a sudden rush of players grinding for a reward before the window closed.

Liareth is right, of course (Edit: Though please don't 'hate' the game). None of us are fond of the current system, and it has been subject of endless discussion over the years. But as I often say; having an idea is not not the same as coding it, and we are forever swamped with work, and even if we were not, this is something I would not wish to change on the fly - we'd need to get it right, and have a system we could stick with for years to come.

It will change, but it may be a while until it does, and even when that time comes don't expect something entirely different - rewards are a fun aspect of the game, it's really just a question of what we are rewarding, and ensuring that whatever it is, it is not something based on favoritism, and is founded on egalitarian principles; it would be calamitous for staff to be deciding which players earned rewards, and which did not.

[Aren]

I think he's being tactfully cryptic.

For a reason I think. If we said that we were about to remove/change the system, we'd see a sudden rush of players grinding for a reward before the window closed.

Liareth is right, of course. None of us are fond of the current system, and it has been subject of endless discussion over the years. But as I often say; having an idea is not not the same as coding it, and we are forever swamped with work, and even if we were not, this is something I would not wish to change on the fly - we'd need to get it right, and have a system we could stick with for years to come.

It will change, but it may be a while until it does, and even when that time comes don't expect something entirely different - rewards are a fun aspect of the game, it's really just a question of what we are rewarding, and ensuring that whatever it is, it is not something based on favoritism, and is based on egalitarian principles.

Thank you for clarifying!

[The GrumpyCat]

Sorry, I was actually player side and distracted. I'll respond a little now.

Firstly just an assurance

There will be a rash of vampires and dragons by the end of this, mark my words. (Shoutout to my fellow parents out there who are now barely eaking out time to play, I am with you!)

The rest of the post this is from is actually quite cool and inciteful, and I do thank the poster for it. But I want to assure that this at least won't happen. Dragons arn't avaiable as an award, and Vampires are application based, and also I try to keep the numbers down. We may see an upsurge in tieflings/aasimar/minotaurs though - fair point.

I really do sympathise with the origional poster. It's a thing that frustrates me too a little. Because it means that, at least to an extent, 5% concepts are more likely to occur if you just grind enough. And that's slightly depressing. And it is something we have on our radar. I don't want to go into details yet, but change will come sooner rather than later I hope (and by 'sooner' I mean 'within the year' not 'next week'.

I wouldn't like to gate awards behind a 30 rpr though - because I do recognise that the rpr system isn't perfect and, as many have pointed out, people get lost and missed, and that's not fair.

There's a line here of: 'But why can't I play as I wanna play?'

People are misconstruing the situation I feel.

The through line here isn't 'You need to play like this or you'l be banned' the through line is 'Why should this style of play be rewarded?'

And that's a fair point.

I'm not saying people who spend all their time run-grinding and none of their time rping shouldn't be allowed on arelith. Far from it. But I am saying that such behavior shouldn't be given the same amount, same chance, of award (or higher!) than someone who's style is more in line with the server - which is to say, Roleplay.

Indeed, oddly enough, I'd argue that the RPR system is vital for acutally -allowing- such behavior on this server.

When you want to enforce a certain set of behaviors or rules - there are two ways of doing it. - Carrott or Stick. We can enforce good rp standards on this server either by handing out awards (such as rpr raises) or by punishments (e.g. bans). The more awards we remove, the more punishments we have to inflict. Personaly I tend to be in favour of awarding good behavior rather tuan punishing 'bad' behavior.

So yes, we are looking at changing the award system is being looked at.
My aim is that it will still be possible for almost any player to get an award, but that those who... act in accordance with the expectations of the server... will find it easier to do so.

[Opustus]

It will change, but it may be a while until it does, and even when that time comes don't expect something entirely different - rewards are a fun aspect of the game, it's really just a question of what we are rewarding, and ensuring that whatever it is, it is not something based on favoritism, and is founded on egalitarian principles; it would be calamitous for staff to be deciding which players earned rewards, and which did not.

Well said!