Loremaster Feedback Megathread

[NMan7496]

I definitely agree there should be something to incentivize casters to take the class. Right now the class seems to be getting tailored to be used by mundanes, which is great, because it can open up some nifty characters concepts for warriors and rogues, but I think there should be an incentive for casters, especially wizards (who are intended to be the arcane scholars), who want to gain some mechanical benefit for having a more bookish, very scholarly concept as opposed to just being built for fighting.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I think making it more caster-friendly would be trying to cram too much into a single class, it might be better to split it into 2 classes so both could be balanced independently.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I would circle back to Dr. B's point about it would be nifty if the Loremaster, like the Knight, had two subclasses that would tailor both scaling bonuses, as well as Secrets access.

One subclass could be like the Esoteric, and be dedicated towards caster-support.

The other could be the Horizon Walker, and be dedicated towards mundanes.

I think right now the Loremaster is suffering some kind of feature-bloat, where it is providing a little bit of everything. I think it should fall 2 key principles:

1. It provides a utility-centric approach to casters by giving more tools, not more +bonuses.
2. It allows mundanes access to magical abilities without having to get into the gish-build dilemma, while also not giving them +bonuses.

[NMan7496]

That's kinda why I liked Quidix's paths idea, so it can be tailored to various classes within Loremaster, but I'm not a coder and don't know the process for making paths vs. new classes, so I'm not sure what would be easier.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

I definitely agree there should be something to incentivize casters to take the class. Right now the class seems to be getting tailored to be used by mundanes, which is great, because it can open up some nifty characters concepts for warriors and rogues, but I think there should be an incentive for casters, especially wizards (who are intended to be the arcane scholars), who want to gain some mechanical benefit for having a more bookish, very scholarly concept as opposed to just being built for fighting.

In my own mind's eye, the Loremaster has a deck of cards in his hand. They have uncovered Secrets and they remain secret to outsiders even if you have a rough idea of their level in Loremaster. When he or she chooses to use one of his cards it is a surprise, a genuine tactical advantage. A Loremaster is encouraged to commit to the Loremaster path so he or she can have a bigger deck of cards.

What is revealed on the card could be Dangerous, Delightful, Amusing or Insightful. Their would be strong mechanics and strong RP opportunities.

Brainstorming concepts for "Secrets" here on the forums is muddying the water somewhat. Meeting a Loremaster should be about not knowing the size of capability of the Loremaster's deck.

They study enigma's and therefore should be mysterious and enigmatic.

[NMan7496]

I definitely agree there should be something to incentivize casters to take the class. Right now the class seems to be getting tailored to be used by mundanes, which is great, because it can open up some nifty characters concepts for warriors and rogues, but I think there should be an incentive for casters, especially wizards (who are intended to be the arcane scholars), who want to gain some mechanical benefit for having a more bookish, very scholarly concept as opposed to just being built for fighting.

In my own mind's eye, the Loremaster has a deck of cards in his hand. They have uncovered Secrets and they remain secret to outsiders even if you have a rough idea of their level in Loremaster. When he or she chooses to use one of his cards it is a surprise, a genuine tactical advantage. A Loremaster is encouraged to commit to the Loremaster path so he or she can have a bigger deck of cards.

What is revealed on the card could be Dangerous, Delightful, Amusing or Insightful. Their would be strong mechanics and strong RP opportunities.

Brainstorming concepts for "Secrets" here on the forums is muddying the water somewhat. Meeting a Loremaster should be about not knowing the size of capability of the Loremaster's deck.

They study enigma's and therefore should be mysterious and enigmatic.

I definitely agree with that, and having additional spell knowledge (i.e. higher CL) can be one of those cards.

Right now, with the exception of the spell commands, all of the secrets are pretty subtle, mostly giving passive bonuses to various stats. I don't see adding a passive to give CL to be any less subtle, since you can't tell the CL of a caster just by looking at them.

[Frailman]

Seems a bit silly that the best crafters around have to be loremasters. They know the secretest secrets of the elves, the gnomes, the orog, the drow and so on and so on.

Maybe it should be more restrictive and allow you to pick a race and/or class that you may now craft as if you were. Otherwise it seems they have learned way more than just one secret..

[Nevrus]

I look forward to the frequent Myonian purges of Loremasters to keep their intellectual property rights secure

[Mattamue]

This crafting update is like mid teens craft points. This is only a slight boost for someone interested in crafting. Not close to the 100s that commoners get.

Secret Knowledge of Crafting:
- This feat allows you to add your skill ranks and bonuses on lore divided by 5 to your crafting points. Calculation is (Base Lore skill ranks + Skill Focus + Epic Skill Focus + base int mod. + Loremaster's Knowledge) / 5.

33 + 3 + 10 + 6 + 10 + 10 = 72/5 = 14

How was 100s calculated?

[NMan7496]

This crafting update is like mid teens craft points. This is only a slight boost for someone interested in crafting. Not close to the 100s that commoners get.

Secret Knowledge of Crafting:
- This feat allows you to add your skill ranks and bonuses on lore divided by 5 to your crafting points. Calculation is (Base Lore skill ranks + Skill Focus + Epic Skill Focus + base int mod. + Loremaster's Knowledge) / 5.

33 + 3 + 10 + 6 + 10 + 10 = 72/5 = 14

How was 100s calculated?

Also, assuming my math is right, you could actually get upwards of 122 crafting points with 10 Loremaster, gift of crafting, maxed out Lore & Craft Mastery, SF & ESF Craft Mastery & Lore, and 40 INT.

I said it here but I'll break it down:
50 (Base)
10 (Crafting Gift)
16 (Loremaster bonus w/40 Int)
33 (Ranks in Craft Mastery)
3 (Skill Focus: Craft Mastery)
10 (Epic Skill Focus: Craft Mastery)

Totalled is 122 (119 with 16 INT).

Built for crafting, a loremaster could, potentially have around 120 crafting points.

Loremaster bonus was calculated like this:
33 (Lore Ranks)
15 (40 Intelligence)
3 (Skill Focus: Lore)
10 (Epic Skill Focus: Lore)
20 (Loremaster Knowledge)

Totaled is 81, divided by five is 16.2, rounds to 16.

[Nevrus]

...Intelligence isn't added to craft points last I checked. I have a +2 int mod and only 50 crafting points on my character.

[NMan7496]

...Intelligence isn't added to craft points last I checked. I have a +2 int mod and only 50 crafting points on my character.

Intelligence is factored in your lore bonus for the crafting secret.

[Mattamue]

Gotcha, but the base, gift, and craft skill are all accessable to all characters, including commoners, which are probably the only ones that would even consider the craft skill focus feats.

[NMan7496]

Loremaster Knowledge bonus is 2x Loremaster level so it would be +20

[AstralUniverse]

From the update:

Secret Knowledge of Crafting:
- This feat allows you to add your skill ranks and bonuses on lore divided by 5 to your crafting points. Calculation is (Base Lore skill ranks + Skill Focus + Epic Skill Focus + base int mod. + Loremaster's Knowledge) / 5.
Top

Kinda safe to assume the team given up on the commoner-loremaster idea, with the adding of this. I like it more than opening the class for commoners.

Secret Knowledge of Gathering:
- This feat allows you to gain 25% more resource from plants, woods, common tier ores and minerals. This effect reduced to 10% if gathering high tier ores or minerals. Minumum of 1 extra resource is guaranteed.

Valuable feat but perhaps increase it to 50% for lowest tier ores and plants (coal, cotton, fruit, copper,etc). I'm not sure it's entirely worth a feat as is.

Secret Knowledge of the Mechanical Animator:
- This feat allows you to make golems.

Kinda bait feat. Golems are trash. The good thing about GSF Transmutation is that golems arent why you take it.

Secret Knowledge of the Explorer:
- This feat allows you to gain 100% more adventure experience from exploration and portal discoveries.

This is entirely a bait feat. Terrible trap even. I dont know who would even feel a tingle of difference in leveling progress. People who sit in hubs after epic lvls and drain their A-exp pool dont really benefit from this and those who dont sit in hubs will normally get to lvl 30 with a-exp excess of 5 digits. I suggest removing this entirely. Or just giving it for free at lvl 5ish.

[Zaphiel]

A side note, it is not intelligence modifier. It is base intelligence modifier.

Loremaster bonus was calculated like this:
33 (Lore Ranks)
15 (40 Intelligence)
3 (Skill Focus: Lore)
10 (Epic Skill Focus: Lore)
20 (Loremaster Knowledge)

Getting 15 from 40 intelligence is incorrect. It should be 9 in that case. Regardless, it is not that big change. At max, they could get like 15-16 bonus craft points by pumping their intelligence. This still doesn't changes that commoners are better at crafting in terms of craft points since they gain +2 craft points every level. They can even get Craft Mastery on top of that.

[NMan7496]

Secret Knowledge of Gathering:
- This feat allows you to gain 25% more resource from plants, woods, common tier ores and minerals. This effect reduced to 10% if gathering high tier ores or minerals. Minumum of 1 extra resource is guaranteed.

Valuable feat but perhaps increase it to 50% for lowest tier ores and plants (coal, cotton, fruit, copper,etc). I'm not sure it's entirely worth a feat as is.

The +10% to high tier ores and a guaranteed extra one means +10% to mining addy and a guaranteed 1 extra, which is huge. It also means no more mining emeralds and such and getting 0 gems.

A side note, it is not intelligence modifier. It is base intelligence modifier.

Loremaster bonus was calculated like this:
33 (Lore Ranks)
15 (40 Intelligence)
3 (Skill Focus: Lore)
10 (Epic Skill Focus: Lore)
20 (Loremaster Knowledge)

Getting 15 from 40 intelligence is incorrect. It should be 9 in that case. Regardless, it is not that big change. At max, they could get like 15-16 bonus craft points by pumping their intelligence. This still doesn't changes that commoners are better at crafting in terms of craft points since they gain +2 craft points every level. They can even get Craft Mastery on top of that.

Ah, my bad, I misread, but it's only a loss of 2ish crafting points.

[Archnon]

Maybe I'm crazy but I feel like loremaster is quickly becoming the new first revision monk. It just gets all the perks and will become a mandatory dip for every build.

[Rowlind Salem]

Would the dev team consider using the secret of artisan to allow a loremaster to bypass the feat restrictions on poison crafting? I believe that this change would be consistent with removing the race restrictions on the elite armor and weapons.

[AstralUniverse]

Maybe I'm crazy but I feel like loremaster is quickly becoming the new first revision monk. It just gets all the perks and will become a mandatory dip for every build.

No discipline, no tumble. Relax.

[Baseili]

It seems the class has become more Artificer than Loremaster at this point, you could probably split it down the middle and make the two classes with relative ease.

Artificer gets the wand bonus, the crafting secret (minus the racial locked items), Lore to crafting and a choice of either Celestial/Demonic/Abyssial or Draconic as a bonus language. Requires 2nd level casting, 1/2 caster level.

Loremaster gets the languages, the scroll bonus and a tiered secrets rather than a huge pool. Requires Skill focus: Lore.

[Quidix]

At max, they could get like 15-16 bonus craft points by pumping their intelligence. This still doesn't changes that commoners are better at crafting in terms of craft points since they gain +2 craft points every level. They can even get Craft Mastery on top of that.

Just for clarification, is the bonus for "Trade Skill Points" (ie add to a trade skill) or "Crafting Points" (ie points spent each time crafting)?

Commoners get a bonus to "Trade Skill Points", not "Crafting Points". A level 30 commoner investing in SF Craft Mastery and ESF Craft Mastery can get 106 Crafting Points as reference point. Also, let's remember SF and ESF Craft Mastery can be taken on all classes.

That said, the Point bonus (regardless which one it is) is not really an issue. It is the feat that opens all class and race crafts that is really strong and can at the moment be taken with a level 3 dip.

To recap: I'm all for a "crafter path", but it needs to be a real tradeoff rather an easy cookie to get alongside everything else.

Artificer gets the wand bonus, the crafting secret (minus the racial locked items), Lore to crafting and a choice of either Celestial/Demonic/Abyssial or Draconic as a bonus language. Requires 2nd level casting, 1/2 caster level.

I can agree with the sentiment to break out a separate caster version, but not sure why casters should get another crafting bonus - they already have craft wand, brew potion and scribe scroll. I'd prefer crafting as a separate path or class (that gets limited combat bonuses).

[NMan7496]

Just for clarification, is the bonus for "Trade Skill Points" (ie add to a trade skill) or "Crafting Points" (ie points spent each time crafting)?

Commoners get a bonus to "Trade Skill Points", not "Crafting Points". A level 30 commoner investing in SF Craft Mastery and ESF Craft Mastery can get 106 Crafting Points as reference point. Also, let's remember SF and ESF Craft Mastery can be taken on all classes.

That said, the Point bonus (regardless which one it is) is not really an issue. It is the feat that opens all class and race crafts that is really strong and can at the moment be taken with a level 3 dip.

To recap: I'm all for a "crafter path", but it needs to be a real tradeoff rather an easy cookie to get alongside everything else.

We are talking Crafting Points (the points spent each time crafting).

Commoners do, in fact, get +2 crafting points per level level, according to the wiki at least (if this is incorrect then the wiki needs to be updated so as to make that distinction), so they'd end up, by my math, with 166 crafting points with the crafting gift (50 Base + 10 Crafting Gift + 60 Commoner Levels + 33 Craft Mastery Ranks + 13 SF & ESF Craft Mastery).

It seems the class has become more Artificer than Loremaster at this point, you could probably split it down the middle and make the two classes with relative ease.

Artificer gets the wand bonus, the crafting secret (minus the racial locked items), Lore to crafting and a choice of either Celestial/Demonic/Abyssial or Draconic as a bonus language. Requires 2nd level casting, 1/2 caster level.

Additionally, I agree with the sentiment that Loremaster is quickly becoming closer to an Artificer rather and the scholar of hidden knowledge that is the Loremaster. Personally, I was kinda hoping this would be the PrC for a magical (arcane or divine) scholar seeking to delve deep into hidden secrets, but, in my opinion, it's quickly turning into a four level crafting dip. While I'm not against that being a thing, in fact I think that would be really nifty to have for those who do like to craft, but I just don't think it should be the Loremaster.

[Quidix]

Commoners do, in fact, get +2 crafting points per level level, according to the wiki at least (if this is incorrect then the wiki needs to be updated so as to make that distinction), so they'd end up, by my math, with 166 crafting points with the crafting gift (50 Base + 10 Crafting Gift + 60 Commoner Levels + 33 Craft Mastery Ranks + 13 SF & ESF Craft Mastery).

The wikia is just wrong I'm afraid. Commoners get no bonus to Crafting Points. They do get +2 Trade Skill Points per level. Source: high-level commoner.

[NMan7496]

Commoners do, in fact, get +2 crafting points per level level, according to the wiki at least (if this is incorrect then the wiki needs to be updated so as to make that distinction), so they'd end up, by my math, with 166 crafting points with the crafting gift (50 Base + 10 Crafting Gift + 60 Commoner Levels + 33 Craft Mastery Ranks + 13 SF & ESF Craft Mastery).

The wikia is just wrong I'm afraid. Commoners get no bonus to Crafting Points. They do get +2 Trade Skill Points per level. Source: high-level commoner.

Well, thanks for clearing that up, I have submitted the correction.