Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

[Dreams]

If the 0 ECL races had 2 Major Gifts again, most of this wouldn't be a problem. It is just the comparison between these things which makes it all seem alarming.

[Naghast]

Literally just let ecl +0 races keep 2 majors

This kind of a change is a massive buff to +2 ecl races, and a nuclear nerf to ecl +0 ones.
Maybe move some problematic races to +1 ecl, but don't nuke everything.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I do not mind the change to gifts so much, hopefully it will encourage people to play something besides humans or wild elves, both of which I think the server had way too many people playing solely for mechanical reasons. Now there is actually a good reason to pick something else at character creation.

Edit: While we're at it, just lock the Wild races behind a Normal reward or higher. Wild elves and wild dwarves should be more rare than the other variants but right now for every sun elf or moon elf there are half a dozen wild elves, and for every gold dwarf or shield dwarf there are half a dozen wild dwarves, or at least it seems that way to me sometimes.

[Drowboy]

Insane to me that in the same post it says 'wild elves +1 ac made people make them without doing the rp,' and 'drow, a notoriously lore-sensitive race is now outright the best in the server for most builds' with no irony or awareness whatsoever.

[Tyrantos]

Insane to me that in the same post it says 'wild elves +1 ac made people make them without doing the rp,' and 'drow, a notoriously lore-sensitive race is now outright the best in the server for most builds' with no irony or awareness whatsoever.

Pretty much this. Perhaps there is some miscommunication going on or something? Perhaps they intended to remove the melee magthere gifts or something from the drow? Or is it something else that's behind it?

Some explanation to the thought process here would be helpful, I think! To put things into context for the players.

[Fargreze]

As several posters have already said, it's a great update with many logical and carefully aimed changes.

On the other hand, the gift change further stereotypes 0 ECL races. Non-human 0 ECL builds were pidgeonholed even yesterday when there were 4 giftable stat points to tweak the base stats. Even then, it wasn't easy to make the majority of builds competitively strong on non-human 0 ECLs, being a feat and a skill down from the human alternative. For example, try building an elven detector to take advantage of Keen Senses. Many classes just lack the skillpoints to afford detection or any other flavorful skill (relevant to combat or not) with Discipline, Tumble, Spellcraft, Lore, and likely Heal as priorities. A non-human Fighter can't even get all of those with 14int, and now non-humans won't be able to spend a second gift to get 16int. At least before this change you didn't always have to lose a skill relative to humans on a race/build combo that didn't have any notable advantages.

The skill tax comes out even worse now. I think it is one of the major barriers to player interest in 0 ECL races; why play a character who comes out with less mechanical strength AND less skill flavor, with fewer interesting abilities? The same goes for losing a feat relative to a human: why sacrifice a feat and risk lacking, for example, a spell focus that unlocks a cool ability?

Stereotyped. Who is making Half-Elves(?) except as WMs or SDs to synergize with their free Dodge (and they still come out underpowered)? People play full Elves to become AAs and chose Wild Elves because the stats suited Rangers, both melee and ranged. Hin Rogues (and anything that wants small size bonuses), Half-Orc dualwield Barbarians, Orog divine-dips, Dwarven EDR builds, etc. Popular builds already take advantage of race-class synergies. This latest change limits build customization even further by removing a gift for tweaking the base stats available for that race, narrowing the appealing options down. I personally want to see more of these races, not less, but with a variety of viable builds.



Want people to try different races? Incentivize it. People will open up to playing any character race so long as the race/class combo that they imagine can be built at least as interesting and almost as strong as the human equivalent (oh, sorry, the Drow equivalent now). Look at the huge Drow rush. Buffs!! Buffs that add versatility to a race!! That's what makes people try it out.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Insane to me that in the same post it says 'wild elves +1 ac made people make them without doing the rp,' and 'drow, a notoriously lore-sensitive race is now outright the best in the server for most builds' with no irony or awareness whatsoever.

I play on the Surface a lot more than the Underdark so I'll share a bit of perspective. It had gotten to the point where almost every elf you met on the surface was a wild elf, and none of them were playing a "wild" elf, they were just taking it because +1 AC and Toughness is really good mechanically. And it had been this way for a long time. A couple of years ago Myon was overrun with wild elves, to the point where every single member of the council was a wild elf, and they were actively discriminating against the other more civilized races of elves which should have been the majority of the ruling class. My character brought up the idea that maybe we should put someone on the council to represent the other races of elves besides wild elves, and was met with all kinds of hostility. Like I said, this was a couple of years ago, so if it was this bad back then this change was LONG overdue....

[Itikar]

Do you hear it? The sound of drow being fed into wood chippers and remade echos through the Underdark.

-delete_characters. -delete_characters in the Deep!

This is... not a good thing.

I know that most drow have not suddenly become trash, that the differences in power are still small, and that one can always remake after all. But this is not so practical, and comes with many inconveniences, such as the loss of equipment/quarters/languages/etc.

In many games I have found grandfathering to be a bad thing, although not always avoidable. I think that this is no exception, both for the above point but also for the ECL 0 races that from now on are de facto nerfed compared to their "grandfathers" with two major gifts.

I will be honest, I am not thrilled by this change, for several reasons both in balance and execution. I see and appreciate the good intentions behind it to balance the races better and to make some choices appealing for their lore, such as drow and deep gnome, also more appealing mechanically, but I am afraid of the consequences.

I confess that I would have appreciated more a buff to the base race, such as adding more spell-like abilities like faerie fire or use poison to drow for instance, or blindness and nondetection added to deep gnomes. I think these would have added both power and flavor, and I applaud the addition of the Earth stream to new deep gnomes which goes in that direction.

P.S.
There are also other parts of the update of course, which I find greatly positive. I feel like that I need to specify this after my post above may seem a little negative, but really this is a great update, with many great features. My intention above is simply to point out a criticality and its consequences, and not to bash on what is definitely good work.

[deserk]

All the new changes I can understand except for letting 0 ECL races only have one major gift which is quite honestly really disappointing.

[Apothys]

Great update!

I think the thing here is lets see how it pans out. All changes seem rough at first.

[Archon]

There's a lot of good posts here, and I feel perfectly the same as strong yeet outlined in his post.

There's good parts in the update.

There's a problem though. 0ECL races lost one major gift, where as races that already have a good baseline bonuses can add up on it further? I feel basic races should be encouraged to be played for variety, and not be limited with their versatility.

The amount of drow created throughout today is frankly showing to me how big a problem ability stacking on races is -- where as some of the most basic races are impossible to build to some concepts; even a simple Weapon Master for a half-orc is going to be some challenge.

I made a drow (or two), and I am a player who thinks drow should not be a playable race at all.

Every problem build got a boost by the update because of the changes in racial gift block.

[Nitro]

Everyone's rushing to make Drow now even if they have no intention of playing them, just so they have them in their vaults in case they get grandfathered for free when the inevitable nerf comes to the drow stat redistribution minor gifts.

[ReverentBlade]

I feel like nerfing humans is weird. Their commonness should be encouraged.

[Nurel]

We should make this into a huge IC event where all ECL0 races go sterile in one instant, just to make up for the fact that ECL0 races are now gimp races and noone will ever create them ever again.

I don't see how anyone will ever want to create another ECL0 PC ever again, following this update.

I would like to see the option for a second major gift restored to the ECL0 races so I can create other characters without being horribly gimped

[NPC Logger Number 2]

We should make this into a huge IC event where all ECL0 races go sterile in one instant, just to make up for the fact that ECL0 races are now gimp races and noone will ever create them ever again.

I feel like you're being a little melodramatic here. Humans are still the best race by default for most builds since they still get a free feat and extra skill points. Many powerful builds will still only work with human. Dwarves will still be the best for barbarian or dwarven defender builds. Elves are still the best archers, gnomes are still the best illusionists, halflings still have the best hybrid melee/ranged builds with the best options for DR penetration. We might see more drow, but there weren't enough drow to begin with imo.

[legionetrangere]

I think it's very obvious that drow are now the kings of Arelith, doing basically everything better than every other race owing to the copious amounts of free stats they get. The other UD races are still super good.

Let's take duergar, for instance, and ignore the drow-shaped elephant in the room for a second -- they get +2 STR, poison/paralysis immunity, and an invis 1/day little widget, on top of the default dwarf stats. In exchange they take another penalty to a dump stat that was never going to see any use anyway, so they were a pretty strong pick. Previously, they also paid some price in flexibility, where they compared to dwarves also "had to take a STR gift," more or less.

Well, now, that disadvantage is gone. Duergar are just better in every conceivable way than shield dwarves. I don't think this is a healthy model -- and I don't think the answer is "nerf all the other races 2 months from now" as I'm... really hoping it won't be.

Orogs were quite a good race previously for STR based div builds like blackguard, with great racials, and a selection of useful craftables. Now they are THE str-based div build race, far and away outstripping anything else, with a ludicrous stat bonus array of +4 strength and +2 charisma. And a bonus pre-req feat for div might/shield. Compare that to a human, who is feat equivalent, and gets one +2 gift. One skill is not worth that trade-off at all.

Drow are insane now, and need to see some scaling back; the melee-magthere/gift of clergy gifts have got to go, then I think they'll be quite a strong, viable race pick, with the caveat of "as long as the rest of the 0 ECL races keep their 2 gifts." Which, currently, they do not.

I don't know if this was a good move at all. Even non-MAD builds have eaten a really raw deal with this; mages no longer get their CON gift and go from "low-mid 400s" to "high 300s-low 400s" as a HP range, and God knows mages did not need another nerf. Battleclerics lost an AB. Monks have ceased to function, basically, now being forced to choose between whether they want epic dodge or qualifying for their improved ki-strike feats; considering that these are both only recently options for a deep-level monk without lots of multiclassing (or in ki-strike case, it just was never useful prior) this more or less invalidates the most recent monk rework, which I thought actually put them in a fairly satisfying place mechanically for the first time on Arelith, ever.

Also, half-orcs are back in their old spot in the "worst race in the game" gulag. Even half-elves are better. Which makes me very sad, since anyone who knows me knows that I love them.

Ironically, a race which could not really do monk very effectively prior to this update, drow, is now the best choice for a monk.

Now, I by no means think this update is entirely flawed: there is a lot of good in here, but the stuff I disagree with is just so prominent I felt it necessary to address that first.
-I love the blinding speed change.
-The KD buff was great.
-Thank God for the wild elf nerf, I think I would go ballistic if I saw another pale-skinned fair-haired wild elf who was raised by humans.
-Ranger/monk quarterstaff builds needed to feel a bit of pain, so I think scaling that down was a good idea.
-Gift of Humility encourages "rollbait" which is objectively stupid and unhealthy. I am not going to miss it.
-Outcasts & slaves did not need to be gated by award, so I'm glad that they're back.
-In some cases I like that 2 ECL races can now choose a gift, like gnolls and to a lesser extent troglodytes were always to my mind suboptimal race picks; now they are actually pretty competitive, the fact that everyone else has eaten a huge nerf notwithstanding.

EDIT: In a perfect world, this would be my [more succinctly written] preference for "fixed things":
drow lose the melee magthere/gift of clergy gift
0 ecl races can take 2 gifts again
...that's all.

Agree with it entirely with the exception of the awarded required status on slaves and outcasts.
Shield/Gold dwarves are considerably weaker than Duggs. Drows are master build race even more.

I feel like nerfing humans is weird. Their commonness should be encouraged.

LoL I hardly doubt this will impact people creating more hoomans. You suggest they further increase its already very good mechanical perks? If you can, take a look at Arelith demographic distribution post (don't have the time to find it, will do when I come back from work), its like 75% hooman me thinks

[Archnon]

Everyone's rushing to make Drow now even if they have no intention of playing them, just so they have them in their vaults in case they get grandfathered for free when the inevitable nerf comes to the drow stat redistribution minor gifts.

This, pretty much this! I mean, hopefully actions occur soon or there is going to need to be a serious conversation about grandfathering these builds in. The ECL balance in the UD was absolutely off. The problem is that it wasn't the Drow that were the problem. They were already strong and had a high ECL that was appropriate to that strength.

[Itikar]

Also, as an aside, and as a meta-feedback, I find it incredibly surprising that a massive change like this has not been tested on PGCC first and for a good while, but was sent live without any consultation with the community. Especially in light of how long Loremaster and other prestige classes were kept there and how much it benefited their final balance.

I really think that a change like this, I am speaking of the ECL and gifts re-adjustment, should have gone through a similar testing on PGCC before hitting the live servers.

[Nurel]

I really think that a change like this, I am speaking of the ECL and gifts re-adjustment, should have gone through a similar testing on PGCC before hitting the live servers.

This would lead to mass hysteria! People would rush to create PCs and fill their vaults with grandfathered characters just to be able to play without being gimped

[SkipiusEsq]

I can see two "small" changes that could implement what was intended by this change without a full rollback.

First, change the gifts to:

ECL 0= 2 Major, 2 Minor
ECL 1= 1 Major, 2 Minor
ECL 2 = 1 Major, 1 Minor
ECL 3 = 0 Major, 1 Minor
ECL 4 = 0 Major, 0 Minor

Second, make drow +3 ECL.

This will allow the 0 ECL classes to still get their 2 Majors while also preventing the drow population explosion. Races could then be moved around ECL-wise as necessary.

[goblinhero]

Also, as an aside, and as a meta-feedback, I find it incredibly surprising that a massive change like this has not been tested on PGCC first and for a good while, but was sent live without any consultation with the community. Especially in light of how long Loremaster and other prestige classes were kept there and how much it benefited their final balance.

I really think that a change like this, I am speaking of the ECL and gifts re-adjustment, should have gone through a similar testing on PGCC before hitting the live servers.

I can understand why it wasn't put on the PGCC, because:
* Everyone and their dog would have created xx amounts of ECL 0 characters - and the change would take years to take hold (except for new players who would spend those years being comparatively weaker). We saw it last with the complex template.

Playing mostly PvE I am not good enough with the numbers - but a net-change of 2 major gifts between surface and UD elves and gnomes seems like a lot.

[Itikar]

I have seen such modifications being announced in advance in other games, and even here with some classes (see Harpers) not long ago. In the end it seems only fair to the community to me. Or maybe such a reaction would perhaps point out that the change had some serious balance issues in the first place, as almost every poster has expressed so far in this thread.

[gesseritt]

I've just reached 28 on my Drow wiz and I have no intention of remaking ... *Eyes woodchipper longily.*

In all seriousness though, it would just be nice if we could pull a lever or open a dialog or something and get to select the extra gift that now all Drow get at chargen. (Same should be applied for other races.) *Sigh.*

[Jencent]

Dropocalypsis has begun!

R.I.P. Any other races. 14.09.2020

[I will never sleep]

Also, as an aside, and as a meta-feedback, I find it incredibly surprising that a massive change like this has not been tested on PGCC first and for a good while, but was sent live without any consultation with the community. Especially in light of how long Loremaster and other prestige classes were kept there and how much it benefited their final balance.

I really think that a change like this, I am speaking of the ECL and gifts re-adjustment, should have gone through a similar testing on PGCC before hitting the live servers.

Just chiming into say that I agree with this sentiment, as someone that was playing and leveling a drow into epics just this past week, just to have this update dumped suddenly and feeling like it was all for naught. And likewise, I know that the character is not suddenly trash or anything, and 2 attribute points is not that big of a deal, but it just seems strange to push something right out the gate without any kind of community feedback whatsoever.