hey now! Lets not forget the army of ranger/Monk Svirfneblin that will be amassing to fight them! An age-old rivalry brought to its full fruition!
But in all seriousness:
SkipiusEsq wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:36 pm
I can see two "small" changes that could implement what was intended by this change without a full rollback.
First, change the gifts to:
ECL 0= 2 Major, 2 Minor
ECL 1= 1 Major, 2 Minor
ECL 2 = 1 Major, 1 Minor
ECL 3 = 0 Major, 1 Minor
ECL 4 = 0 Major, 0 Minor
Second, make drow +3 ECL.
This will allow the 0 ECL classes to still get their 2 Majors while also preventing the drow population explosion. Races could then be moved around ECL-wise as necessary.
I think this is an absolutely great idea! If Drow need something else to justify +3, give them something small.
+5 spellcraft
Use Poison feat
Toughness (i mean, it is like forcing them into +2 Con.)
I just hope that we can nuke the hundreds of level 1 drow that are now sitting in vaults with bonus stats.
Faerie fire is a canon drow spell-like ability that can be added to make them ECL +3.
Use poison also would be great for all drow, as it is required to craft some of their racial items and it reflects an inclination of the race to, well, use poisons. I always found it weird that only drow assassins and blackguard had that feat, when it is a culture-wide practice, especially in light of the fact that goblins get it.
While drow could've been made more flexible by the introduction of a couple more racial minor gifts to adjust their bonus stats around instead of a full major gift - the removal of a major gift from 0 ecl races is crippling. The fact both of these changes went on together is even more confusing.
As a guy who loves to play Half-Elves, I can't help but point out that they are hurting pretty hard with this change.
They're essentially humans who have been forced to take dodge as their extra feat, and lose a skill for some pretty niche bonuses. (+1 senses, Immunity to sleep)
I'd like to see them get something like Elven Weapon Proficiency, just to kinda push them closer to their Human and Elven counterparts.
My main concern is barbarians and small races (need base con 18 for full barbarian. Abikutues2 and 25 str for thundering rage)
It was possible by going 16 con 15 str + 2 gifts. Your end str would be little less but small gave ab. Now the stat spread is too much abd small races will now always push for blinding speed.
My second concern is how ridiculously inferior dwarf is to Duegar now.
I made a new drow, because I've been wanting to try one out for a while and now seemed like a good time. I'd be really upset if it got wiped or messed up because a change wasn't properly considered.
- Added a new merchant type - 'Outdoor Supplies' . These merchants sell resource gathering tools, shovels, some traps, fishing poles, limited ranger scrolls and new climbing equipment items. Currently they have been added at the Hearthhouse in Brogdenstein, and Jory's Lodge in the Base Camp. (These stores will not be live until the next reset)
Anybody know what this means for the current climbing rope and lasso? Should we trash those now, or are they still needed for the previously existing climbing scenarios, while the new climbing equipment is needed for the new ones? Would love to trim down on some of the weight I carry, the rope and lasso are heavy!
Rope can be enchanted with weight reduction, fyi.
*facepalm emoji* Okay, I am stupid and you are my hero!
REGARDING the ECL changes:
I have much opinions on this. To cut it short, i disagree with this change. I might write a longer post later.
But i am curious about .. why this was needed. What is the vision about this all?
Well I could not help myself, I did vent in the last two posts and I'm sorry, it was out of frustration; though I feel I need to make a better, more productive post.
I am a new player (almost 3 months into Arelth, coming back from a 15yr hiatus from nwn). I really love it here, I even got my irl friend to come play and we're having a great time.
I have to be concise: What I believe separates Arelith from most RP servers I've played in, is how it provides incentive to players to retire their characters and create new ones. This keeps things fresh and interesting as well as enriches the IC environment: Retired PCs are remembered as influential figures who shaped Arelith's history, and their players move on to create other stories.
I believe yesterday's update to Gifts contradicts this most unique element of Arelith. Since new PCs will be severely underpowered compared to the old, players will be all the more reluctant to go through with Epic Sacrifice, and this can only be bad for the server long-term. I know there have been gift nerfs in the past, but I am doubtful they were as severe as yesterday's update.
Now, not only will I never wish to roll my grandfathered character (ever!), what's more important is that I'm becoming less and less inclined to create a new ECL0 character, knowing that he/she will be severely gimped compared to other pre-existing characters of their race. It is a ~major~ turnoff.
Thats my 2 cents and why I believe ECL0 races should retain the option to pick a 2nd major gift.
Nurel wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:18 pm
I believe yesterday's update to Gifts contradicts this most unique element of Arelith. Since new PCs will be severely underpowered compared to the old, players will be all the more reluctant to go through with Epic Sacrifice, and this can only be bad for the server long-term. I know there have been gift nerfs in the past, but I am doubtful they were as severe as yesterday's update.
So much this.
Except for grandfathered drow and svirfneblin who experience the reverse, which is not good either, and what is worse, it does not solve the lingering cjaracters "issue" either, because old drow can just apply for a remake if they want the "buff".
This is mostly not true. It is not the first time gifts have been reworked for the worse, at some point 3 Major gifts were possible. Just have a look at this thread: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=16413&p=137577
The argument then was the same as you made, that no one would ever retire these characters. They may not have been rolled, but they aren't active anymore for the most part.
If we need to quote old posts, then also this one by DM Rex was particularly enlightening. And again, also quite surprising considering how both this view and the Outcast award lock were so suddenly overturned by the last update.
Drowboy wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:00 pm
Out of curiosity, can someone post a working stat spread for a thundering rage barb or an epic dodge monk with ki strike +5, on a 0 ecl race?
Here's some stat spreads I could come up with. Things are more tricky now for sure, but as a long-term Drow and Genasi player I've got quite used to cutting a few corners here and there :)
Epic Dodge Monk:
Moon Elf (or any race with +2DEX and no WIS penalties)
8STR, 17DEX (+2 gift), 12CON, 16WIS, 14INT, 8CHA
All points in DEX on level up. Final DEX: 26.
Thundering Rage Barbarian:
Shield Dwarf
17STR (+2 gift), 9DEX, 18CON, 8WIS, 14INT, 6CHA
All points in STR on level up. Final STR: 26.
I'm not mad about the update itself.
However, I am a bit upset over the reasons for the updates, not because what the DM's wrote, but why they had to be done in first place.
I'm known to play elves, pretty exclusively, and without care if it makes my character better or worse mechanically. I'll still play elves, even if they're even weaker now than before, just because other races barely interest me in general.
What makes me sad, is the people who now go "Oh lets make bunch of drows before they get nerfed! I don't know if I want to play drow but I want to have OP build for them!". Same reason that'll bring nerf to them as did to Wild elves, no?
I admit - I have Wild elf Ranger, currently in works. Because I felt that Wild Elf will fit well to the nearly-feral concept I had, and ranger was good choice for forest-dwelling animalistic elf. I admit, there was some play to it that ranger is good class for wild elf, where my original concept was pure monk, but she will be played as wild elf. I don't mind that I get -4 AC from the changes, but I'm feeling bad for those who want to play wild elves in future and have them gimped, same as I will feel bad for the drows in future that most likely won't have their race gifts anymore that were always unique thing for drows.
I would've put Wild Elves behind award (which, I was ready to pay for my wild elf in first place personally), and have drows up an ECL and give them something else than the major gift.
Just my two cents. I don't like crazy powerbuilding with no interest to RP. Please if you choose to powerbuild character, also RP it as the race/class should be. If you do that already - I'm not directing my words for you. Just those that don't, in example here, play Wild elves as Wild elves just because they wanted the +1 AC and Toughness for free. I'm more upset at the parts of community that make it so changes like that happen, not to those that make the changes.
'nuff said.
You need the Dark in order to show the Light. - Left the Isle: Sabre Brightburst, Liberty, Lila Havenfall, Lillaniarin Dragonsbane, Avidelra Aza'Athreen, Hexflaerin Amav'fer, Eclipse Silverbane
Talvenlapsi wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:12 pm
I'm not mad about the update itself.
However, I am a bit upset over the reasons for the updates, not because what the DM's wrote, but why they had to be done in first place.
I'm known to play elves, pretty exclusively, and without care if it makes my character better or worse mechanically. I'll still play elves, even if they're even weaker now than before, just because other races barely interest me in general.
What makes me sad, is the people who now go "Oh lets make bunch of drows before they get nerfed! I don't know if I want to play drow but I want to have OP build for them!". Same reason that'll bring nerf to them as did to Wild elves, no?
I admit - I have Wild elf Ranger, currently in works. Because I felt that Wild Elf will fit well to the nearly-feral concept I had, and ranger was good choice for forest-dwelling animalistic elf. I admit, there was some play to it that ranger is good class for wild elf, where my original concept was pure monk, but she will be played as wild elf. I don't mind that I get -4 AC from the changes, but I'm feeling bad for those who want to play wild elves in future and have them gimped, same as I will feel bad for the drows in future that most likely won't have their race gifts anymore that were always unique thing for drows.
I would've put Wild Elves behind award (which, I was ready to pay for my wild elf in first place personally), and have drows up an ECL and give them something else than the major gift.
Just my two cents. I don't like crazy powerbuilding with no interest to RP. Please if you choose to powerbuild character, also RP it as the race/class should be. If you do that already - I'm not directing my words for you. Just those that don't, in example here, play Wild elves as Wild elves just because they wanted the +1 AC and Toughness for free. I'm more upset at the parts of community that make it so changes like that happen, not to those that make the changes.
'nuff said.
There's a huge difference between
-making a character because it's super powerful right now before it gets nerfed, leaving it in the vault, not playing it, then eventually playing it within the setting and within reasonable concept.
-making a character because it's super powerful and (playing it whenever) just for that reason, and not within the setting and a reasonable concept.
Wild elves were nerfed because of the latter case. And I, too, personally still think they are too strong and should be minor award.
KriegEternal wrote:
Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.
AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:17 pm
Wild elves were nerfed because of the latter case. And I personally still think they are too strong and should be minor award.
Other considerations are making this a reward (as with the other wild race classes).
This line from the update makes me think that wild elves are now a minor, or are going to become one.
Also pretty much Talven is spot on, as that old post that I quoted, the current setup is bringing people to make drow for all the wrong reasons.
AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:17 pm
There's a huge difference between
-making a character because it's super powerful right now before it gets nerfed, leaving it in the vault, not playing it, then eventually playing it within the setting and within reasonable concept.
-making a character because it's super powerful and (playing it whenever) just for that reason, and not within the setting and a reasonable concept.
That is true. But from what I've understood, a lot of people have been making these new OP drows just for the sake of having it, because they want to have this OP build in their vault. I do not know if they are people that are wanting to play drow for real, or just making it because it's the new strongest elf for now and gotta make it before it's taken away - if it's for actually wanting to play the race and maybe someone who has wanted for it for long time: Yes. I support that.
If it's for the sake of having OP drow - now, that's bad.
You're not wrong in the statement, indeed.
You need the Dark in order to show the Light. - Left the Isle: Sabre Brightburst, Liberty, Lila Havenfall, Lillaniarin Dragonsbane, Avidelra Aza'Athreen, Hexflaerin Amav'fer, Eclipse Silverbane
AstralUniverse wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:17 pm
There's a huge difference between
-making a character because it's super powerful right now before it gets nerfed, leaving it in the vault, not playing it, then eventually playing it within the setting and within reasonable concept.
-making a character because it's super powerful and (playing it whenever) just for that reason, and not within the setting and a reasonable concept.
That is true. But from what I've understood, a lot of people have been making these new OP drows just for the sake of having it, because they want to have this OP build in their vault. I do not know if they are people that are wanting to play drow for real, or just making it because it's the new strongest elf for now and gotta make it before it's taken away - if it's for actually wanting to play the race and maybe someone who has wanted for it for long time: Yes. I support that.
If it's for the sake of having OP drow - now, that's bad.
You're not wrong in the statement, indeed.
If the upper case is the legit then people deserve the benefit of the doubt until they actually play their concept in the live server and we'll see if it's cheesy or not. Wild elves had a pretty long run so far and to be honest this 1 ac nerf changes nothing about them.
KriegEternal wrote:
Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.
I enjoy the update change myself. Drow were in kind of a rough place mechanically. Aside from the SR which leans more toward trivial late game, there wasn't really much mechanical incentive to make a drow due to the lack of build flexibility. At the time any ECL 0 race could do anything a drow could do, but better because of the stat spread, free feats, extra feat, more skills, ect. However, the reduction of the gifts in the ECL 0 races kind of puts them (especially non-humans) in the camp drow were in before the change to begin with so now they no longer have the flexibility drow now have (Especially with the racial gift of stat swapping being a thing).
Everything else is pretty much solid and delightful!
Edit: Fixing for clarity. Posting at work and distracted like a bad bad working person.
Last edited by LichBait on Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
