Mandatory big update Feedback thread #53

[AskRyze]

Also, as an aside, and as a meta-feedback, I find it incredibly surprising that a massive change like this has not been tested on PGCC first and for a good while, but was sent live without any consultation with the community. Especially in light of how long Loremaster and other prestige classes were kept there and how much it benefited their final balance.

I really think that a change like this, I am speaking of the ECL and gifts re-adjustment, should have gone through a similar testing on PGCC before hitting the live servers.

Then you get a situation like what happened with complex templates, where people see the change coming and mass produce/hoard them - in this case, like what happened with Drow, where people would have stuffed their vaults with every type of character they can think of playing.

[AskRyze]

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=28717&p=228910#p228727

If we need to quote old posts, then also this one by DM Rex was particularly enlightening. And again, also quite surprising considering how both this view and the Outcast award lock were so suddenly overturned by the last update.

Put bluntly - the outcast award is only a 'problem' in tandem with Humility. Humility Humans feeding themselves to the woodchipper to grind for that sweet sweet 5% reward. It's why people did it. It's why it got locked away. There are 'other reasons' but tbh that's the only functional one I can see. The revolving door of Andunor Outcasts was immersion breaking big time.

[Exordius]

Um why for the love of God did you make Humans ECL +1... not only is it against lore but now its going to take even longer to level?

[Diegovog]

I like almost everything about the update, but humans could be adjusted to 1 major 3 minors.

[AstralUniverse]

I wonder if this +1 ECL applies to grandfathered humans in regards to exp gain.

[Drowble Oh Seven]

I've got the mechanical aptitude of a houseplant, but thanks to the team for being so responsive on the drow feedback. I know we scream like bonobos, but we do it because we care. I say this as someone who knee-jerk wood-chippered, remade and lost fifteen levels, because as it turns out I lack a houseplant's patience. This is likely for the best.

[The Rambling Midget]

I wonder if this +1 ECL applies to grandfathered humans in regards to exp gain.

I doubt it. AFAIK, your ECL is saved on your ability token at creation.

But let's face it, none of the Humans are going to be grandfathers. Their children and grandchildren would be worthless, now.

[Good Character]

Feels odd watching humans bombed into oblivion. A common argument is that there are far too many skills needed now, and especially with the addition of a new skill. Instead of taking the route of offering other races something like an extra skillpoint every 2 or 3 levels, it's instead curbing humans in a painful and disheartening way.

Despite the disastrous approach to humans, I'm excited to see how exactly the number of future humans pans out.

[Hazard]

I wonder if this +1 ECL applies to grandfathered humans in regards to exp gain.

I doubt it. AFAIK, your ECL is saved on your ability token at creation.

But let's face it, none of the Humans are going to be grandfathers. Their children and grandchildren would be worthless, now.

Well, I'm curious what "- Any drow created with both a Major gift and one of those unique Minor gifts will be given an opportunity to re-select." means.

An opportunity to re-select? Won't they just decline? If so, then what happens?

[NauVaseline]

Then you get a situation like what happened with complex templates, where people see the change coming and mass produce/hoard them - in this case, like what happened with Drow, where people would have stuffed their vaults with every type of character they can think of playing.

Two factors massively played into that:

1) the other unnecessary ECL changes, I. E. Human nerf.
2) as I said in discord, areliths Meta changes what feels like every other week. It's gotten old.

Back to #1 what possible reason is there for doing this? Are you (figurative) addressing power creep? Because that came from race/class specific craftables, runes, loot inspired to Band-Aid the UMD nerf, and the mass of new classes. Not the gift system. Not even the three gift system had a comparative impact. Certainly not GMW scrolls being used by lowbies.

#end rant

[AskRyze]

Well, I'm curious what "- Any drow created with both a Major gift and one of those unique Minor gifts will be given an opportunity to re-select." means.

An opportunity to re-select? Won't they just decline? If so, then what happens?

Likely the gifts will be removed forcibly as part of a script and a menu to select new ones will re-appear. If you decline, no gifts.

Two factors massively played into that:

1) the other unnecessary ECL changes, I. E. Human nerf.
2) as I said in discord, areliths Meta changes what feels like every other week. It's gotten old.

Back to #1 what possible reason is there for doing this? Are you (figurative) addressing power creep? Because that came from race/class specific craftables, runes, loot inspired to Band-Aid the UMD nerf, and the mass of new classes. Not the gift system. Not even the three gift system had a comparative impact. Certainly not GMW scrolls being used by lowbies.

#end rant

The reason for the gift changes, as far as I can tell, is basically "Hey, we get that the powerful builds on the server are usually Dex builds that dip into Divine or Monk. Therefore we're taking away those characters' ability to compensate for low secondary stats with a second gift". Except, now, those characters will just be made on an Underdark race because those are still swankily good, and most of them are better than they were before, even with drow being bugged atm. Svirf master race.

[Hazard]

Well, I'm curious what "- Any drow created with both a Major gift and one of those unique Minor gifts will be given an opportunity to re-select." means.

An opportunity to re-select? Won't they just decline? If so, then what happens?

Likely the gifts will be removed forcibly as part of a script and a menu to select new ones will re-appear. If you decline, no gifts.

Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up. That seems fair.

[terre]

Hello, currently if you try to make a svirf you can only take minor gifts. However you can take two of them.

[Itikar]

Hello, currently if you try to make a svirf you can only take minor gifts. However you can take two of them.

Some people on Discord are reporting that also drow are experiencing this now.

It would make sense that ecl +2 races get a different gift treatment from ecl +1 races, but overall, given this was not in the announcement of the correction it seems a bug.

[Baseili]

I imagine humans being put at +1 is to balance them out with the other races stat wise since they have no negative to overcome using the gift system on top of the free feat and skill points. Largely bringing them in line as the most adaptable race but not the most powerful. At least in theory.

[The Rambling Midget]

I imagine humans being put at +1 is to balance them out with the other races stat wise since they have no negative to overcome using the gift system on top of the free feat and skill points. Largely bringing them in line as the most adaptable race but not the most powerful. At least in theory.

That's a flimsy theory. They're now the least adaptable, because, while every other base race can have up to three buffed stats or one buffed and one double buffed, Humans just get one, leaving them unable to achieve the multiple high stat requirements for complex builds, without sacrificing their primary stat. The stat malus that non-Human base races suffer is entirely meaningless compared to the class abilities that can be stacked up with minmaxed starting stats.

[Drowboy]

I feel like it's important to note that 'complex' builds here seems to include monks, barbarians, paladins/blackguards, spellswords, b clerics, and anything else you can think of that might want more than 14-15 or so in two stats. God forbid you want more than two.

[Alyxnia]

The ECL system is calibrated around humans being the baseline. Other races get stat bonuses, free feats, etc. I can't see an argument for humans getting an ECL that also couldnt be used to justify giving a +1 ECL to all the base races. Yes, humans get a free feat and 1 (class) skill for free. They get those because every other race is better at their niche than humans. Dwarves are better fighters, Half-orcs are better barbarians, halflings are better rogues, gnomes (and high elves or w/e they are) are better wizards, wood elves are better rangers, etc. etc.

With these latest changes that are, in my opinion, incredibly heavy-handed attempts by the staff to 'balance' a game that is by design unbalanced I find it hard to work up the motivation to play.

Arelith is a server that is lore-wise based in Faerun, and mechanically based in 3.0/3.5 D&D. In the last year I feel that the server has gone so far off the rails from these two basic assumptions that I struggle to see what the goal of the developers even is. Its fine if a server does tweaks or fixes to deal with minor issues, but when you see things like adding an ECL to the D&D race that is supposed to be the BASELINE for the ECL system in 3.0/Faerun I start to wonder if you shouldn't be using a different game or setting to achieve the sort of thing you want to be running.

I'll still be around, just probably not online unless I start to see some of this frankly irresponsible behavior from the staff towards the playerbase, lore, and mechanics walked back.

[Ork]

I think we're getting a little too hot and bothered by this. Should humans have an ecl of 1? I don't think it's the right move, but to say this is irresponsible? See ya I guess.

[DM Rex]

Let's not attack each other about personal decisions and be respectful to one another. If people want to post about taking a leave, that's fine to do in the corresponding thread.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=36

We don't need the extra emotional context to feelings on these changes. Thank you.

[Dreams]

Seems like what we DO need is a balance team, or some kind of balance consideration.

[Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia]

[...]

Well, I'm curious what "- Any drow created with both a Major gift and one of those unique Minor gifts will be given an opportunity to re-select." means.

An opportunity to re-select? Won't they just decline? If so, then what happens?

Drow that had been created recently with both a Major gift and one of the drow-only Minor gifts will have these Gifts removed from the characters after the rollback system goes live. A new chat command will allow these drow to choose new Gifts from those available. If your drow does not have a Major gift + Minor drow-only gift, this will have no effect on you.

Hello, currently if you try to make a svirf you can only take minor gifts. However you can take two of them.

Some people on Discord are reporting that also drow are experiencing this now.

It would make sense that ecl +2 races get a different gift treatment from ecl +1 races, but overall, given this was not in the announcement of the correction it seems a bug.

Just a minor oversight while handling the reversion/changes following the original update. This and the above have been patched and tested for the next release, I expect swiftly. As always, watch the Announcements thread and Discord for when they go live.

...

To touch (very) briefly on the the larger subject, the very simplest I can put this for now is: We hear you, what needs addressed will be addressed, and we will have a more in-depth post on this as the initial dust settles (and, critically, as the tyranny of time zones permits). Thank you both for your calm and your patience.

EDIT: Typo.

[ReverentBlade]

Shouldn't the posts and discussion come -before- the dust is made in the first place? Horse, cart, ect.

[NauVaseline]

The current process for Meta changing updates seems to be:

1) idea is imagined
2) coding is done
3) rough draft is pushed live, except for new classes
4) feedback/backlash is considered
5) second or final draft is pushed

Seems to happen with a LOT of updates, if you're going to rely so often on feedback for the final draft, just include the playerbase in the final part of the process *before* pushing live the first time, so we can skip the parts between three and five where loads and loads of people get upsetti spaghetti. Thanks I love lamp

[Itikar]

A new chat command will allow these drow to choose new Gifts from those available.

May this command be extended also to the other drow so that they too can choose gifts?

It won't be the same as a full remake, and they will still likely be suboptimal, but it would -really- sweeten the pill of this change at least for my two pre-update one-minor-gift-only drow.

At least, please do consider it.

Also, thank you for your polite reply and precise explanations, Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia.