The current dex meta, especially monk.

[-XXX-]

I dunno, rather than tweaking numbers, I think that the issue is more complex. DEX might be an issue today, something else will pop up later on.


Fron what I can tell the general issue with regards to balance appears to be double dipping:

Chacrters have six core stats that define their strengths and weaknesses. Characters who get to double dip one of their stats to attain additional mechanical benefits end up being more powerful than those tha do not. (basic captain obvious observations here- bear with me)

Weapon finesse, zen archery, divine shield/might, monk wis ac bonus, divine grace and dark blessing all do this - most vetted builds represent merely a creative way of combining multiple double dips to achieve optimal performance.

The issue as I see it is with these dips adding up.
Rather than nerfing abilities what if there was a cap on AC, AB, hp, spells DC, DPR and saves?

That way the build ceiling would be clearly defined and double dipping wouldn't be an issue. Optimal builds would expand horizontally by being able to fill multiple roles rather than vertically by trying to stack their numbers to excess.

tl:dr - controlling the extremes might be a much more straightforward way of controlling the meta

Cant see how that would work. I mean... not going to say it wont work 100% because I dont know but I just dont see why anyone would play things except whatever has the most RP cookies and skill points. Because they reach the same combat statistics anyway, so it's a train of rangers, rogues and spellswords from first glance.

Unlike the slightly different train that we have right now?
The upside would have been someone deciding and tweaking blanket limitations for ALL builds concurrently rather than focusing on specific details one at a time and risking that something else flies under the radar in the meanwhile.

Also, what's wrong with RP cookies anyway? Sounds more interesting than "STR guy", "DEX guy", "STR fiend pet guy", "DEX fiend pet guy", "DEX guy who prays alot but not rly"...

I'd really prefer builds having to choose betwen more rp cookies rather than always chasing raw mechanical power.
Then it's all about "balance this, +1 there -1 here nonsense..." or "...chart shows that this is how so and so cornercase scenario is expected to play out... etc. etc."
Starts to feel like watching a dog chasing its own tail at this point.

[SkipiusEsq]

It seems to me that a possible solution are feats that can offset (or counter) Expertise/Improved Expertise and Epic Dodge. This is ultimately a game where there are moves and countermoves. I cast a spell that does X and you drink a potion that does Y. There are ways to counter most strengths of the other side.

Some thoughts:

Battle Fury / Improved Battle Fury: A warrior with this feat fights with such ferocity that blows that would normally be turned aside by shields and armor instead strike true. However, this fighting style means that the warrior is not positioned to avoid counterattacks. +5 AB / -5 AC (Battle Fury) & +10 AB / -10 AC (Improved Battle Fury)

Masterful Strike (STR 25 / discipline 30 / Epic Weapon Focus): One missed attack per round is rolled again at the same AB as the missed attack.

There are ways to tweak these to avoid abuse. For example, if a barbarian uses a rage, Fury drops just like expertise/improved expertise drop for spell casting. And as long as the rage is in effect, the fury feats cannot be activated.

Another tweak could be that the warrior attacks in Fury with such abandon that they actually suffer injury themselves just by making the attack. Perhaps there is a 25% bite-back on physical damage to the attacker using a Fury mode. (Concept being that you are hitting the other person's armor so hard that there is some physical damage to you just like hitting the ground with a metal bat).

Another option is if an attack in Battle Fury/Improved Battle Fury misses by more than 10, then there is a discipline check of the attackers AB or be knocked down. (Concept being that you swing so hard and whiff, putting you off balance).

Perhaps WM's cannot take Battle Furies because they are supposed to be focused masters of their art. Their skill comes from targeted practice and perfection of fighting techniques. They don't fight with fury, they fight with precision.

[KT28]

I've heard a couple people mention how strong rogues are right now and claim they need nerfs. Can someone expand on this? Are we talking about rogue dips or majority rogue builds like the rogue 24 / fighter 6?

I played a rogue/fighter to 30 last year and "PvP powerhouse" or even "PvE powerhouse" is not how I would describe my experience. By my calculations a standard 24/6 today has mediocre AB (capping at about 44 dual wielding if you take prowess, with a very situational and temporary +2 ab out of stealth), solid but not spectacular AC (mid 50s plus epic dodge, more with Parry AC or a shield), absolutely trash will saves and low-ish fortitude saves, good damage but very situational (since you need to be sneak attacking, and good luck hitting any of these monk-dip builds with 70 AC). Grenades are something I actually never messed with that much but they also seem a little underwhelming considering you could potentially screw yourself over with them and/or screw your allies over, and as far as I last heard a Beamdog bug made Spellcraft contribute to saves vs grenades (not sure if this has been fixed/changed).

Not trying to be snarky, I'm genuinely curious. Are grenades way stronger than I think they are? If so, which ones? Did I completely miss out on something hugely powerful when I was playing my rogue last? (big disclaimer: I played a rogue well over a year ago before the UMD changes and I don't PvP very often so I might not know what I'm talking about)

If accusations against rogues are over-exaggerated, then I have to agree with BaRKyy's comment there really isn't a "dex-meta", there's a "dex+monk dip" or "dex+divine dip" meta. High dex alone and even Epic Dodge alone isn't enough to create a hugely unbalanced character; it needs to be paired with either monk or a divine dip. And I do agree that monk dip is a huge problem. It's pretty disheartening to roll up almost any new character who's not a monk/divine and knowing that you're basically gimping yourself by not building one of these class combos from the outset.

[Arigard]

I like how we're pretending that these 70+ AC Epic Dodge DEX builds actually get hit sometimes. Maybe if you stand there flat-footed and don't carry remove blindness pots...

I also like how we're pretending that these same quarterstaff monk dip builds have low DPS and take forever to solo anything. I played one and every time I got into PVP the other person was melted in a single round, bosses typically died in a few seconds, even crit immune enemies with high DR never lasted more than a second or two against a double imbued 9-10 APR quarterstaff. You're telling me people can't do the same with Divine Might or +5 Blade Thirst that also gives DR Pen and life stealing?

Lets stop low-balling DEXers, they do not have low DPS, and they do not get hit except maybe once in a blue moon when someone rolls four twenties in a row.

Pretty much this. A dex based spellsword can do a hell of a lot of damage, as can a monk/ranger in a single round due to the amount of attacks. My dex spell-sword uses a x3 crit weapon and can hit for 100+ once all the imbue damage is stacked up and 1d8 of that is magical and unavoidable. The idea that dex builds cannot do a lot of damage is simply wrong. This is without even factoring in builds that can force flatfoot like shadow-dancers and then dish out massive crit damage, or use grenades etc.

Grenades are something I actually never messed with that much but they also seem a little underwhelming considering you could potentially screw yourself over with them

Acid bombs are disgusting. In terms of the meta, as my OP said, it really is the monk + edodge meta really. You can make incredibly powerful rogue characters, but they do have their weaknesses (Mainly will/fort saves). The second you dip monk though, you're suddenly getting +10 will at least and at least 7 or 8 extra irremovable AC, which then becomes a lot easier to offset the will weakness & pushes the AC to an extreme level.

To even get close to the kind of AC a monk dip can get on a rogue, you'd need heavy investment in rogue + a shield, which drops the APR. Monks can sit there with higher AC, duel wielding, more APR + a better attack progression.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I like how we're pretending that these 70+ AC Epic Dodge DEX builds actually get hit sometimes. Maybe if you stand there flat-footed and don't carry remove blindness pots...

I also like how we're pretending that these same quarterstaff monk dip builds have low DPS and take forever to solo anything. I played one and every time I got into PVP the other person was melted in a single round, bosses typically died in a few seconds, even crit immune enemies with high DR never lasted more than a second or two against a double imbued 9-10 APR quarterstaff. You're telling me people can't do the same with Divine Might or +5 Blade Thirst that also gives DR Pen and life stealing?

Lets stop low-balling DEXers, they do not have low DPS, and they do not get hit except maybe once in a blue moon when someone rolls four twenties in a row.

Pretty much this. A dex based spellsword can do a hell of a lot of damage, as can a monk/ranger in a single round due to the amount of attacks. My dex spell-sword uses a x3 crit weapon and can hit for 100+ once all the imbue damage is stacked up and 1d8 of that is magical and unavoidable. The idea that dex builds cannot do a lot of damage is simply wrong. This is without even factoring in builds that can force flatfoot like shadow-dancers and then dish out massive crit damage, or use grenades etc.

I agree with everything you said but just want to reiterate some things. Anyone who takes a monk dip and uses a quarterstaff and does anything at all to increase damage on hit is dealing damage per round comparable to a weapon master. This includes Spellsword imbues, Divine Might/Wrath, Blade Thirst, or even just temp essences and fighter feats. All of these can easily result in you dealing 300 DPS.

Not only are they dealing damage comparable to Weapon Masters, but because the damage comes from high APR and a sheer volume of strikes, rather than an increased chance and damage multiplier for criticals, they do not have to worry about crit immune enemies the same way a weapon master does. That Hexblade Palemaster Blackguard with 500 hp will go down in a couple of rounds against any of these quarterstaff builds whereas a Weapon Master would not be able to put a dent in them. Same goes for elemental and undead summons, constructs, etc.

Then to throw even more salt on the wounds of any STR based character, you can EASILY slap a T3 rune on a quarterstaff for about 300k, whereas it would cost you 3 million or more to do the same for any kind of metal, bladed weapon. And DEX gear is also leagues better than STR gear in every single possible aspect, though hopefully the devs are going to fix that soon by adding more variety of heavy armors.

TBH 3 levels of monk should not give you 10 APR and 70 AC. 3 levels of monk should be equivalent to taking classes for a month at a McDojo. Sure, you might know a few neat martial arts moves, but you shouldn't be Ip Man, who is basically untouchable and never gets hit but throws punches faster than you can shoot a machine gun.

[Arigard]

I like how we're pretending that these 70+ AC Epic Dodge DEX builds actually get hit sometimes. Maybe if you stand there flat-footed and don't carry remove blindness pots...

I also like how we're pretending that these same quarterstaff monk dip builds have low DPS and take forever to solo anything. I played one and every time I got into PVP the other person was melted in a single round, bosses typically died in a few seconds, even crit immune enemies with high DR never lasted more than a second or two against a double imbued 9-10 APR quarterstaff. You're telling me people can't do the same with Divine Might or +5 Blade Thirst that also gives DR Pen and life stealing?

Lets stop low-balling DEXers, they do not have low DPS, and they do not get hit except maybe once in a blue moon when someone rolls four twenties in a row.

Pretty much this. A dex based spellsword can do a hell of a lot of damage, as can a monk/ranger in a single round due to the amount of attacks. My dex spell-sword uses a x3 crit weapon and can hit for 100+ once all the imbue damage is stacked up and 1d8 of that is magical and unavoidable. The idea that dex builds cannot do a lot of damage is simply wrong. This is without even factoring in builds that can force flatfoot like shadow-dancers and then dish out massive crit damage, or use grenades etc.

I agree with everything you said but just want to reiterate some things. Anyone who takes a monk dip and uses a quarterstaff and does anything at all to increase damage on hit is dealing damage per round comparable to a weapon master. This includes Spellsword imbues, Divine Might/Wrath, Blade Thirst, or even just temp essences and fighter feats. All of these can easily result in you dealing 300 DPS.

Not only are they dealing damage comparable to Weapon Masters, but because the damage comes from high APR and a sheer volume of strikes, rather than an increased chance and damage multiplier for criticals, they do not have to worry about crit immune enemies the same way a weapon master does. That Hexblade Palemaster Blackguard with 500 hp will go down in a couple of rounds against any of these quarterstaff builds whereas a Weapon Master would not be able to put a dent in them. Same goes for elemental and undead summons, constructs, etc.

Then to throw even more salt on the wounds of any STR based character, you can EASILY slap a T3 rune on a quarterstaff for about 300k, whereas it would cost you 3 million or more to do the same for any kind of metal, bladed weapon. And DEX gear is also leagues better than STR gear in every single possible aspect, though hopefully the devs are going to fix that soon by adding more variety of heavy armors.

TBH 3 levels of monk should not give you 10 APR and 70 AC. 3 levels of monk should be equivalent to taking classes for a month at a McDojo. Sure, you might know a few neat martial arts moves, but you shouldn't be Ip Man, who is basically untouchable and never gets hit but throws punches faster than you can shoot a machine gun.

+1000% plus if we bring the in the recent 'consistency' argument, no other class dips outside of divine and monk give you full class progression benefits. You don't get lvl 9 spells for 3 levels in wizard just because you have 19 int. You don't get full sneak attack progression because you took 3 levels of rogue etc etc. Every other class in the game has tiered investment progression, except monk and divine shield/might classes. So if we really want to push the consistency agenda, it needs to be across the board.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

+1000% plus if we bring the in the recent 'consistency' argument, no other class dips outside of divine and monk give you full class progression benefits. You don't get lvl 9 spells for 3 levels in wizard just because you have 19 int. You don't get full sneak attack progression because you took 3 levels of rogue etc etc. Every other class in the game has tiered investment progression, except monk and divine shield/might classes. So if we really want to push the consistency agenda, it needs to be across the board.

Monk Wisdom AC needs to either scale to level (1 AC per level) or be locked behind Majority Monk Levels. Quarterstaff doesn't need Monk UBAB. Get rid of it. Or at least lock it behind Majority Monk Levels.

[Archnon]

I mean, how many times are we going to rehash this. You can find a dozen threads from the last two months that all say the same things. 1.) Yes any build can win at pvp with cleverness and counters, but 2.) Monk dips are too powerful, they break AC and DPS due to UBAB. (3. Div dips also break saves) 4.) Everyone is a holy person for power advantage.

UBAB should be restricted to majority monk levels. Monk ac should be capped at 1+1 per 4 levels. You still get insane benefits from a monk dip as has been laid out before.

The real problem is the number of rebuilds this would cause.

[Might-N-Magic]

While I doubt some of the specious claims presented here (actually having those numbers myself and not being able to solo maur for example (everything rolls 20s fairly often enough)), this may shock you but...

It's completely possible to solo Maurs on the right race and dex build. No tricks outside of not dragging both bosses at once, face tank everything. Is it as easy, or prevalent as soloing illithids, or Abazuur? No, but it's still possible.

Sure if you want to blow 50 heal pots and carry about 500 heal kits and take about 2 hours inching along praying the encounter groups you get are fortuitous while you sit there in IE bored to death, anything is possible, but I got s*** to do man and could solo/loot 4 or 5 other things instead.

Anything is possible, even Paush rolls 1s. Reasonable and worth the time? That's another story.

[Arigard]

While I doubt some of the specious claims presented here (actually having those numbers myself and not being able to solo maur for example (everything rolls 20s fairly often enough)), this may shock you but...

It's completely possible to solo Maurs on the right race and dex build. No tricks outside of not dragging both bosses at once, face tank everything. Is it as easy, or prevalent as soloing illithids, or Abazuur? No, but it's still possible.

Sure if you want to blow 50 heal pots and carry about 500 heal kits and take about 2 hours inching along praying the encounter groups you get are fortuitous while you sit there in IE bored to death, anything is possible, but I got s*** to do man and could solo/loot 4 or 5 other things instead.

Anything is possible, even Paush rolls 1s. Reasonable and worth the time? That's another story.

I wouldn't bring up Maurs as an example if I hadn't found builds that could do it a) with reasonable effort (i.e I can walk into large mobs and tank) and b) without requiring ridiculous levels of consumables. It's doable in about 45 minutes on certain builds. It didn't take me 2 hours, or edging my way through, worried about mob size and I didn't require 500 heal kits, or 50 heal pots either. I think I used maybe 2 heal pots in the final boss room, which I think is a steal considering the rewards (often Adamantine veins and epic rune chests that are usually full because it's not an overly farmed dungeon). So 5-10k gold in consumables for the rewards of an epic dungeon seems fine to me, especially solo. I've also run into other people soloing the dungeon on a few occasions, so people do do it.

Can you do Illithids quicker? Sure. Maurs is an annoying dungeon, but I've got far more higher quality runic material from Maurs than I have elsewhere. It's also not mutually exclusive. You can do everything in a rotation and Maurs is often a much quieter dungeons with more chance of things actually being in the chests.

Anyway this is besides the point. The point was the reach of dexterity builds on this server far far far outweighs the reach of what strength can achieve.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Now longswords and scimitars are finesse-able. This will only push more people to play DEX. This was the complete opposite of what was needed, really.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Now longswords and scimitars are finesse-able. This will only push more people to play DEX. This was the complete opposite of what was needed, really.

I was honestly ok with str meta with a few tricks up the sleeve, but this update makes me want to rage lol

[ImWithThisGuy]

I actually really like the finessable change, funnily enough. Disregarding how balanced/imbalanced moonblades will be in the hands of dexers, elves typically use longswords in FR lore. Despite their affinity for dexterity, and not benefiting much if at all from using Longswords. The same goes for Githyanki, who use longswords 'less effectively'. Two-bladed swords need any love they can get, even before they were nerfed, so I can't complain there either. And I don't know if anyone but a pirate or swashbuckler would use a scimitar simply do to these changes, and even they might not; I know we're all sick of seeing scimitars and rapiers. (Especially once one considers that rapiers already were finessable with the same numbers)

For the sake of flavor I can understand it somewhat, but it makes sense enough in my mind that they be finessable. Same goes for quarterstaff, as much hate as it gets and/or deserves. I don't think a small change like this warrants frustration while the team has confirmed there are plans to amend the situation as a whole, as well as accepting feedback or suggestions.

[Drowboy]

Being able to use a cooler aesthetic variety rules.

Some of those fighter tricks that just got approved look neat, too. Still would be for some strengthery prestige classes, tho.

[Quidix]

I'm probably ignorant, but is scimitar not the same as rapier? (and rapier is already finessable, so this just opens up aesthetic options)

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I'm probably ignorant, but is scimitar not the same as rapier? (and rapier is already finessable, so this just opens up aesthetic options)

LOL no. A scimitar is a curved sword. A rapier is a straight sword. Edit: Well yeah I guess mechanically they are the same so it doesn't matter that much..

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

forgive me for my short comments no actually useful content.

in terms of the dex meta, I feel some of the reasons they grow in such strength is stacking of factors that makes them more viable in a lot of ways, one of them is the larger sizable finesse weapons.

If all monk dips were kama wielders instead of Qstaff, thier extra ac wouldnt be nearly as big of a deal as two hand disarm AB memes even more AB and easily both hit and disarm them. More finesseable medium/large weapons like twobladed sword is IMO the wrong direction. Before if you dual wielded assassin daggers or moonblades, a two hand meme could hurt you more.. no you can go longsword and short sword. yes i know nobody uses disarm.. I feel that would change if dex meta was also more a small weapon meta.

Another factor is I think people do not make the effort to take advantage of hurting people that dont have uncanny dodge, i here people making paladins dex based (which i think can extremely be taken advantage of in PvP where you use all your tools rather than just stand there and swinging at each other).

Another is, as other people pointed out, that there just seems to be more dex options. Even if all things were eqaul, there is just more nuances you can apparently pull off with dex; I don't totally buy into this, but I can see there this does seem to be lack of equipment (for weapons or armor) variety on the 'strength end of things' (when can i have a greatsword of Torm? lol falchion or go orog). This is even more true now that all the scimitar and longsword options have been opened up to dex builds.

Another thing that took a hit to str style was knockdown nerfs, though I think knockdown being able to also slow people during immunity makes it in a good place. You can still do something like timestop, haste potion, true strike potion, and be beside them for knockdown right when time stop ends.

arcane archers also can wreck most dex builds as they can achieve the ab to repetitively called shot legs which will slow, reduce ac AND ab.. (can start with a truestrike go gurantee a lot of early hits and then their ac will be lower for more called shots). Id like to see cavaliers alot more on this front. if its indoors an archer can be cornered, fi its out doors cavalier can close the distance or maintain distance for horse archers. A strength melee character will have a much better chance to resist called shots than a dex character and will not suffer ab bonuses if they manage to close the close the gap (freedom of movement potion might help on the movement speed problem)

I feel the dex problem occurs mostly because people just arnt playing the counters via build and, or tactics enough and because some tactics are less viable due to the medium-large sized dex weapon that are available. I dont mind a rogue using skill to beat me, most people are complaining about the raw ac problems.

[Kenji]

Now longswords and scimitars are finesse-able. This will only push more people to play DEX. This was the complete opposite of what was needed, really.

I was honestly ok with str meta with a few tricks up the sleeve, but this update makes me want to rage lol

So would it be better if this were released after the dex meta has been toned down?

Come on, folks. This update is mostly cosmetic. Find something else to rage on, yeah?

I'm probably ignorant, but is scimitar not the same as rapier? (and rapier is already finessable, so this just opens up aesthetic options)

LOL no. A scimitar is a curved sword. A rapier is a straight sword.

Sunbro approves

[TroubledWaters]

But yeah, I feel like the recent update makes the already powerful DEX game even stronger. I'm hoping something is in the works to rein DEX in because it seems to be so far and away better than STR that it is having a negative impact on build diversity.

[the grim yeeter]

From Xerah
==========
Gear changes (new and existing)
• Padded Vestments of the Holy Squire [From +4 DEX to +2 DEX]
• Fine Elven Boots [From +2 DEX to +1 DEX]
• Disciple’s Garb [From +2 WIS and +4 Discipline to +1 WIS and +2 Discipline]
• Armour of Immolation [From +5 Discipline to +2 Discipline]
• Duelist’s Cape [From +3 Discipline to +2 Discipline]
• Piker’s Ring [From +4 Discipline to +3 Discipline]
• Aspirant Sash [From +2 WIS to +1 WIS]
• Disciple’s Wraps [From +2 WIS to +1 WIS]
• Aspect Beads [From +4AC vs Chaos to -1 AC]

This is a step towards the right direction. Love to see this. Well done.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Now longswords and scimitars are finesse-able. This will only push more people to play DEX. This was the complete opposite of what was needed, really.

I was honestly ok with str meta with a few tricks up the sleeve, but this update makes me want to rage lol

So would it be better if this were released after the dex meta has been toned down?

Come on, folks. This update is mostly cosmetic. Find something else to rage on, yeah?

I'm probably ignorant, but is scimitar not the same as rapier? (and rapier is already finessable, so this just opens up aesthetic options)

LOL no. A scimitar is a curved sword. A rapier is a straight sword.

Sunbro approves

I apologize for my attitude, in a later post you will see some of concerns beyond aesthetics.

Stuff like dual wielding moonblade and dale sword instead of 2 dale swords as a human and being less vulnerable to disarm. My larger concern is actaully finessable large weapons (never liked Qstaff for this). Medium weapons i can get over "because rapier" but I still think it is more than just aesthetic.

[godhand-]

From Xerah

• Fine Elven Boots [From +2 DEX to +1 DEX]

This is a step towards the right direction. Love to see this. Well done.

I'd be lieing if i didn't think the Fine elven boots were a staple of the server.... probably the most iconic item i could remember from many many years ago on my first Dex character. I'm a little saddened to see this change. But back then, Dex needed a little boost like these beautiful boots. Now not so much, this is for the best. I agree.

[Ork]

Disarm is super neutered- whos using it beside 2handers (sometimes)? Change to weapons has a net 0 effect (besides dex drow looking for fresh elven smith slaves)

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Disarm is super neutered- whos using it beside 2handers (sometimes)? Change to weapons has a net 0 effect (besides dex drow looking for fresh elven smith slaves)

Please refer to context of my larger post that right before kenji's qoute of my smaller post for better context of what i am tryimg to say.

Like disarm would be used more if qstaff didbr exist because call monks be wielding tiny kamas is just one of many facets/reasons why i think dex meta is a trend. I mentioned other facets too in said post.

[AstralUniverse]

I actually like that Disarm is being pushed up in value through indirect changes to weapons. Ultimately this is in favor of STR characters, I'd like to believe.