Sibayad Portal

[JoeKickAss]

Comparing Cordor to Andunor would be a fair one both are the main cities, and in doing so it would be a good comparison to make.

There are countless settlements that monsters are banned. Bendir Dale is sorrounded in smaller settlements. Cordor is sorrounded by blue npcs and settlements. You can, under disguise enter all underdark settlements without a DM. The comparison is just not valid at all.

Sibayad was useful for the conflict it created not for shopping, since it was the only zone where underdarkers and surfacers mingled outside of the Hub. I honestly think without DM events it was by far the area that had the most conflict/stories because monsters were permitted there. Somewhere like that is useful, maybe sencliffe could be made a bit more accessible (leaving it as monsters is near impossible as you need to cross crow's nest), maybe the halfbreed camp could be reworked a bit, etc.

Now, you can argue that monsters should just stay away from cities and maybe that's good stuff, but there's clearly going to be issues for monsters if you do that while every single surfacer is in the middle of cordor, has no reason to leave, all roads lead to cordor on 2/3 of the servers, and DMs are explicitly focusing on developing those areas.

[Gouge Away]

I suspect high-epic Anundor gangs grinding the orcs and pvping surfacers on writs and 10 levels lower than them is as big a problem as their visiting the city itself. I'm for monsters having a place on the surface and agree they're there for more reasons than to raid but I never experience more random PVP forced on me than I do as a surfacer player in the Orclands and it is supposedly a level 16-20 ish writ area.

[JoeKickAss]

I suspect high-epic Anundor gangs grinding the orcs and pvping surfacers on writs and 10 levels lower than them is as big a problem as their visiting the city itself. I'm for monsters having a place on the surface and agree they're there for more reasons than to raid but I never experience more PVP forced on my than in the orclands and it is supposedly a level 16-20 ish writ area.

This is an issue by design. If there's three source portals on the surface, and one is in the middle of a 16-20 writ zone, people will use it.

[Gouge Away]

I seriously doubt that’s “by design.” An unintentional byproduct of the design, sure, but unless some dev comes in and says otherwise I am not going to believe they put a portal there to draw level 26-30 Anundor types to grind a level 16-20 surfacer writ area (and wreck those surfacers who dare be there.)

[Ork]

This seems to come up frequently about equality for underdark races vs. surface races. By playing a monster, you've a higher level of scrutiny on your character that surface characters don't. Is it equal? No. But, setting integrity > your monster character's access. You selecting a monster, there are stipulations (and benefits) for your choice. How does this relate to Sibayad? Well, expect DM oversight and player hostilities when coming onto Sibayad. The privilege has been ruined, and now setting integrity must be maintained. It is completely fine for DMs & Admins to say "you shouldn't go here".

[mjones3]

[There is no "Goblin/Monster Town". Various PCs try to establish one. I suppose there's the sewers in greyport where one of the gobbos that left had bought a quarter. No npcs there, so there's technically no restrictions on pvp there at all.

There is a goblin town. It's a surface writ you get for levels 13-18. You go there and kill everything but you can't burn it down. It's as "pointless" as trying to raid Sibiyad, in-fact more so since there's no rich Pasha or something on the mainland there to sponsor it and you kill them in the thousands and they always come back.


You're asking for something unreasonable by saying we as a players should have a right to destroy something when we want that we ourselves did not work on. We do not to get to decided that this is a tiny shanty little tent town that said I can't enter so it can be destroyed easily.

The best example is the dwarves have been trying to reclaim the "old halls" for over 10 IRL years, you go there kill a bunch of duergar, drink to celebrate, lament that more will likely move in, and move on to other RP because you understand that its a game that while it gives us a TON of narrative control its not our sandbox we just get to play in it.

[-XXX-]

There had been signs restricting access to monster races around Sibayad for quite some time. The latest update is mostly an area redesign.
Personally I'm reading the Laws of Sibayad being placed on larger objects and moved closer to the portal as way for the area designers to say "YES WE REALLY MEAN IT", rather than introducing something new.

[Gouge Away]

We do not to get to decided that this is a tiny shanty little tent town that said I can't enter so it can be destroyed easily.

It's not a shanty tent town, either. It's an open marketplace as you'd seen in many cities in Asia and Africa but there are lavish buildings and the powers that be would have enough wealth to hire real protection.

[JoeKickAss]

[There is no "Goblin/Monster Town". Various PCs try to establish one. I suppose there's the sewers in greyport where one of the gobbos that left had bought a quarter. No npcs there, so there's technically no restrictions on pvp there at all.

There is a goblin town. It's a surface writ you get for levels 13-18. You go there and kill everything but you can't burn it down. It's as "pointless" as trying to raid Sibiyad, in-fact more so since there's no rich Pasha or something on the mainland there to sponsor it and you kill them in the thousands and they always come back.


You're asking for something unreasonable by saying we as a players should have a right to destroy something when we want that we ourselves did not work on. We do not to get to decided that this is a tiny shanty little tent town that said I can't enter so it can be destroyed easily.

The best example is the dwarves have been trying to reclaim the "old halls" for over 10 IRL years, you go there kill a bunch of duergar, drink to celebrate, lament that more will likely move in, and move on to other RP because you understand that its a game that while it gives us a TON of narrative control its not our sandbox we just get to play in it.

I did not ask for a "goblin town". It was claimed that adventurers could not destroy goblin town without a DM. I merely pointed out that there wasn't such a place, and as you have just pointed out there never will be.

I am not saying there should be. I am saying the surface is not built to ban all the underdark races from key control points and places of interest on the surface, and Arelith is clearly not designed to cope with that. It limits all sorts of storytelling opportunities. Not least, that much of the underdark are writ zones, and not end-game points of interest factions can utilise, unlike the surface which have keeps, castles, and so on.

All I am saying is that there needs to be a development plan to help reshape the underdark experience (not just goblins) or make the surface somewhat feasible for a very hostile underdark player base to utilise without a DM, in light of the fact their contact with the surface will be limited to DM supported raids or DMless pvp. It wont happen overnight and may require some long-term thinking but based on the last few weeks I think there should just be some thinking about it.

[Scylon]

I seriously doubt that’s “by design.” An unintentional byproduct of the design, sure, but unless some dev comes in and says otherwise I am not going to believe they put a portal there to draw level 26-30 Anundor types to grind a level 16-20 surfacer writ area (and wreck those surfacers who dare be there.)

Just on that note, the orc lands are hands down the best grind area on the server, regardless of faction. Even as a level 28 for example you will see serous gains in leveling here over anywhere else. Summon mummy dust, crack the tunes and set ya brain into auto pilot. I seriously think the server needs a 2nd or 3rd area for mindless grind, because lets face it, everyone will do it. Best to spared it out a little bit.

On another note, I'm an avid fan of some kind of monster shanty settlement on the surface. It would give monsters a new place to start as opposed to the drow lands, story, conflict and just a general hub. Honestly, I'd put my hand up to design something like that myself. Sounds like it would be fun.

[JoeKickAss]

I seriously doubt that’s “by design.” An unintentional byproduct of the design, sure, but unless some dev comes in and says otherwise I am not going to believe they put a portal there to draw level 26-30 Anundor types to grind a level 16-20 surfacer writ area (and wreck those surfacers who dare be there.)

Of course it is a by-product, and devs/DMs didn't purposefully create some of these issues. I just dont think you can blame players for raiding the deserts of Sibayad, which was what I was responding to.

On another note, I'm an avid fan of some kind of monster shanty settlement on the surface. It would give monsters a new place to start as opposed to the drow lands, story, conflict and just a general hub. Honestly, I'd put my hand up to design something like that myself. Sounds like it would be fun.

Doesn't need to be a start zone. More an area where mingling between underdarkers and surfacers is encouraged and rewarded, and a place for conflict that is not just one line pvp. It could even be in the underdark (replacing less used parts of Anundor e.g.), just very very close to the surface.

[Skarain]

Doesn't need to be a start zone. More an area where mingling between underdarkers and surfacers is encouraged and rewarded, and a place for conflict that is not just one line pvp. It could even be in the underdark (replacing less used parts of Anundor e.g.), just very very close to the surface.

Upperdark trade post (aka. Ogre trade post). Who or what does it trade with?

[JoeKickAss]

Doesn't need to be a start zone. More an area where mingling between underdarkers and surfacers is encouraged and rewarded, and a place for conflict that is not just one line pvp. It could even be in the underdark (replacing less used parts of Anundor e.g.), just very very close to the surface.

Upperdark trade post (aka. Ogre trade post). Who or what does it trade with?

If we are talking about the same place, that's actually pretty deep in the underdark. It is in a 20+ writ zone, near red caps? There's a few shops and quarters there, but not sure if it has much lore around it.

[Xerah]

Doesn't need to be a start zone. More an area where mingling between underdarkers and surfacers is encouraged and rewarded, and a place for conflict that is not just one line pvp. It could even be in the underdark (replacing less used parts of Anundor e.g.), just very very close to the surface.

Upperdark trade post (aka. Ogre trade post). Who or what does it trade with?

If we are talking about the same place, that's actually pretty deep in the underdark. It is in a 20+ writ zone, near red caps? There's a few shops and quarters there, but not sure if it has much lore around it.

Develop some.

It's also a way to surface.

[JoeKickAss]

It's also a way to surface.

Honestly don't know the way to the surface there, and Im a rat gobbo that enjoys a foray into the surface now and again.

[Nitro]

It's also a way to surface.

There's two ways to the surface there even (and a third way that goes down only) but only the first is well known.

[Arigard]

I seriously doubt that’s “by design.” An unintentional byproduct of the design, sure, but unless some dev comes in and says otherwise I am not going to believe they put a portal there to draw level 26-30 Anundor types to grind a level 16-20 surfacer writ area (and wreck those surfacers who dare be there.)

Anywhere that is a lucrative area, or a key route in the server is usually adjacent to, or a pathway to some kind of writ area. It's literally impossible to get to higher level content without going through slightly lower level areas on the way to it.

To get to the spirits you need to run through a 15-20 writ area (Crinti) and fights happen there all the time when surface groups head down either to grind, or go deeper into the lowerdark that then end up running into lower level andunorians/groups of monsters.

Likewise, every single fight that happens between surfacers and andunorians is usually bang in the middle of a writ area like the ice roads and characters are constantly getting caught in the crossfire.

The issue with both the spirits and the orclands (especially the citadel) is that they are the two most commonly contested areas for late game character experience & it's impossible to get to them without requiring the navigation of other lower level content. The Citadel also has a massive advantage over the spirits for characters that rely heavily on sneak/crits, so there's usually a high chance of running into writ workers on the way through these places and then once you arrive, there's a lot of butting heads as characters try to claim the right to stay in their destination. This is just the way the server is laid out and it's almost impossible to know what level characters actually are OOC unless they have very clear and obvious signs that they are lower level (i.e lower level summons). So the only go to at that point is following the RP if an encounter turns hostile.

In regards to monster PCs being around hostile areas on the surface though, the way I see it, an overwhelming place you might expect to find monsters & perhaps be wary of running into them in, is in a lawless area that people go to fight monsters.

I don't see why it's somehow more out of place for players to find a goblin, or a gnoll around orcs than it is human Paladin hanging out in an old decrepid ancient ruin deep within the earth miles from their homelands. The majority of the monster races that are player characters exist in forests and dungeons. There are Gnolls in Arelith forest, Goblins in caves all over the surface and Yuanti literally right next to the desert entrance. What's so weird about running into them in surface wild areas outside of the fact they are named PCs rather than "Generic Gnoll/Goblin/Hobgoblin no.10"?

[Gouge Away]

You can write ten more paragraphs justifying why monster PCs could be there and it will all makes sense and I am not going argue any of it. But it's also beside the point. I'm talking purely about module design. End of the day, this is a game and you have to look at the mechanics as well as the lore. Ideally these elements will compliment each other but lore doesn't override something like traffic flow that creates wildly imbalanced points of conflict. And frankly story is cheap and you can keep writing and writing to justify why anything that's broken is okay IG because wizards or the gods wish it so but that doesn't mean it's not part of the game that needs to be tinkered with OOC.

An area for surface characters in their late teens should not be such a huge draw for late-epic monsters who will always be hostile. I expect hostility there as it's where both paladins and pirates go to grind-- and that's great! But decked-out level 28 Anundor parties ready and willing to stomp anyone in their way are a nuisance plain and simple. Yes, many high epic areas require passing through writ spots but generally they're not drawing the "other side" the way the Orclands does. That speaks to something needing to be tweaked whether nerfing the area, making more options available or making it more difficult for the monsters to be there.

Perhaps if the Citadel is meant to be for underdarkers to access as well it could have another entrance from beneath. That's a great place to clash with "the other side", it's the getting there that's the problem.