Community and Cooperation; A lack thereof

[Hazard]

. . . but it feels closer to WoW than D&D or even a traditional NwN roleplay server.

I feel similarly. I don't have the words to express what I want to just yet, and I hope they come to me before the thread devolves and is locked.

I just want to say I think this is an important discussion the server should be having, and I'm super interested in this thread. I've got it open as a tab and am slapping F5 regularly in between breaks from work.

[Zavandar]

I think a lot of people have very narrow definitions of what an rp server is. I know people that got rpr docked back in the day because they killed a deer, alone, without rping with it.

I don't think that's good.

You can find rp every time you log in. Yes, there are people that don't rp a lot and mostly are here to "play a game", but those people always existed. Action/adventure always existed. Social rp always existed. Pvp always existed. Cliques always existed (and work is being done to break apart their prevalence and power!).

The server is less empty than what the "oldies" are used to, so they see more of what they don't like. That's human nature. It's easy to forget that we also see more of what we do like.

The server is doing fantastically. The administration is more open and active than ever. I will say that I do think the server could benefit from more DM-driven events, but I know that is a mixed bag for a lot of people. Many avoid DM events like the plague. Sometimes I do, too, if I'm not in the mood. I've said this before, though, that the Heartstone Crisis was one of my favorite times in Arelith. The environment now is not so different than it was then.

I personally never felt at major odds with the "server vision" like a lot of people here in this thread. I legitimately wonder what I am doing and perceiving differently than everyone that does. I came here from WoW rp several years ago. We are still a far cry from it. Ironically, the people that make this claim often suggest changes that would make Arelith and WoW more alike.

[Curve]

I agree that there is a problem, but I also agree that we are headed in a better direction than we have for a long time. Of late the staff has done more than just listen, they have taken active steps towards fixing problems that I assumed they were happy ignoring for a long time. I, like Hazard, am watching this thread closely and think it is a healthy conversation to have. If it starts to spin out of control I hope that moderators edit out crazy posts rather than lock the whole thread.

Here is what I am thinking so far.

I think a lot of people have very narrow definitions of what an rp server is. I know people that got rpr docked back in the day because they killed a deer, alone, without rping with it.

This is from some thread that got locked a while back,

This is not so much a problem with the Orclands, but a culture problem on Arelith. People generally have it in their heads that there is PvE time when nothing really matters and then there is RP time when you actually play your character. I took a break from Arelith for a few months and coming back it is staggering to me how much I see this mentality play out. People non-stop running through PvE content, not speaking or emoting, just walking away from people if they are speaking or emoting, and general avatar behavior (*sighs,* looks like the desert is busy again).

I reached out to one of the very few people I speak to OOC and asked if people are able to maintain their RPR of 30 and 40 while legit run grinding and they told me that this is generally accepted behavior and DMs do not come down on people about it. That the idea is just act like a goof ball until you hit level 30 and then you can start being a serious roleplayer.

I know this is just mine, and my friend's experience, but the more I play the more I see this behavior. I don't know how to shift the culture as a player other than to keep on keeping on, pausing to emote and to speak, to make stands even if it means I don't get to grind in the most optimal place tonight. As to the DM side, I really think when people are run grinding or meme-ing they should have their RPR dropped.

RPR drops for killing a deer is silly, sure. But that is an extreme example. What does it take to have your RPR dropped today? From my small window it seems like the only way is to break rules. There should be some standard of RP, there should be some standard of ethics other than 'don't break the rules'. I am really interested in hearing people's ideas about how to do this in good way.

[Red_Wharf]

I personally never felt at major odds with the "server vision" like a lot of people here in this thread. I legitimately wonder what I am doing and perceiving differently than everyone that does.

I'm with Zavandar on this. I don't know what else to say besides asking others for more concrete examples of what's so bad about the current state of things, perhaps drawing comparisons between "this is how Y thing works in Arelith and I don't like it" and "in a perfect world, Y thing would work like this instead" would help me understand a lot about what's going on.

[Zavandar]

RPR has always been vaguely defined and I think that is intentional. People get it for doing different things and it's not something that should be gamed (of course, people still try despite this).

The thing is, that isn't a "new problem", if you identify it as a problem at all.

I personally don't really have a problem with run-grinding, but I also tend to mirror what I am given. If someone is walking and posting, then I will. If neither of us are trying to make some deep and profound story in that moment, though? Then whatev. Regarding the "memeing", that's not something I really partake in, and I usually distance myself from people that do.

If "not breaking the rules" was the standard for GETTING 30 and 40, we would have more of them. I can't speak for the team regarding maintaining them. Some characters will get the spotlight and earn you that 30. Other characters (even ones you make after that) might not. Does that mean you should lose your 30? I don't think so.

[-XXX-]

I do strongly believe that more DM events could be really beneficial here. I also think that we should have a flat RPR (it's related).

One of the main criticizms of DM events is the crowds that they tend to attract.
Firstly, it's that way because of their artificial scarcity and how special they feel because of it.
Secondly, there's always that "one guy" who thinks that they get a RPR bump if they steal all the spotlight.
Thirdly, there's always some petty players whining afterward about the "DMs favouritism" and uneven distribution of DM attention while applying the misguided "DM attention = RPR increase" formula.

As I see it, we get less DM events because of the wrong reasons. Flat RPR and more frequent DM events would result in more managable crowds, if any.

Let's compare that to what a more tangible DM presence IG might bring (I'm sure that there's more, but this is what I can immediately think of):
- it would introduce a more dynamic vibe to the setting and set goals for characters to strive for.
- it might result in players treating the PvE content more seriously as they'd never know when a monster starts acting out of the ordinary.
- it could offer a distraction from the "dog chasing its own tail" style of conflict that seems to have become the main focus of the endgame lately.
- it would provide additional grounds for different characters and players with varying playstyles to mingle and work toward a common goal. This is very important as it'd lead to increased IC and OOC appreciation between people who'd probably be reluctant to interact otherwise.

[Arigard]

I've been having discussions about this a lot in recent weeks. Personally I've lost a lot of enthusiasm in recent weeks for Arelith. It's an amazing place, unique. It offers things that many other games don't and has wonderful activity levels for a NWN server. Those are its real strengths.

We have often heard the phrase "RP begins at 30". What i've experienced is, once you hit 30, you're left with a "Well, what now?" question. If you aren't really someone interested in doing constant meetings (Over arbitrary things), or day to day chitter chatter RP, if you really want to be someone that pushes for more, what is there that you can actually achieve as a player? Ultimately it's very small, socially driven roles. You can command people, you can get victories over other groups, but due to the fact there is no finality to the story telling, ultimately most of the plots to try and achieve things falls flat and usually it becomes about who is willing to simply hold on OOC the longest.

Because of this the world feels a little like the backdrop to a play. We have some props we can use (Shops/Housing etc), but the stage can never be truly changed through IG action. The Underdark cannot rise up and take control of Cordor (People get mad at even the idea of monsters being near cities), or Guldorand, the surface forces cannot purge the depths and establish outposts. The Temple of Red Knight cannot be torn down and turned into something else (Maybe it can who knows, but to me personally it doesn't feel like it can be through true IG action).

For me personally, as an evil protagonist player, I want to know that the things I'm doing both have risk and reward & likewise that the effort I'm putting in will actually amount to more than simply hollow RP, because I think this is where a lot of what spawns ends up being simply tit for tat. When I see surfacers below, I want them to have more they can achieve than simply small and ultimately pointless ego victories (Hurr we killed you in the Ice Roads) and that's it.

There needs to be something big to aim for, for those players that see this as what it's advertised, an actual RP world that is actually achievable, or else it simply feels like we're playing pretend. I think this is ultimately why PvP becomes so used as a means to try and bring finality through social RP. For many players the only way to actually achieve any kind of victory in the world is through PvP and so it becomes a race to the bottom and an ongoing back and forth, a vicious circle. Can you claim positions of power? Sure, but what can you actually do with those positions of power in the world?

Personally, the more I've been involved in PvP on Gorehound, the more i've realized it's ultimately a fruitless way to actually decide RP, all it does it provide short term IC ego boosts that people brag about, but then gets forgotten weeks later when everything returns back like nothing happened. Why? Because characters that should have taken a step back are able to pop back up and interpret the conflict in any way they wish until it favours them on both sides.

As some have said in this thread, I think Arelith is in an identity crisis. I think it needs to really decide what it wants to be. Does it want to be a living, breathing RP world where actions have consequences? If so, I think we need more systems to enforce this naturally. Cleverly built rules that shape the world based on the decisions you make as your character. Are you a Paladin that does things against their code? Why not have systems IG that upkeep said codes. I think there is plenty of room for cleverly built mechanics that would solve a lot of the current gripes people have with the server from a RP standing.

If the server wants to be RP above all else, then it should ultimately be enforcing the lore IG in some way IG. It would stop a lot of the frustration players are having seeing Druids partying up with their undead summoner buddies, or Paladins turning into Judge Dredd and going on killing sprees because their OOC friend (who happens to be a tiefling, or hard evil aligned character) got attacked. This shouldn't need to be handled OOC by DMs. It should be dealt with through RP IG and clever mechanics, things that force players to either follow the lore, or go down another route. When you have too much lenience from an IG perspective, you simply see situations like we saw with slavery, an ultimately relaxed system that was simply used as a way for players to gain advantage. That then loses the support of the players who want the world to be truly RP driven, who can't do anything to actually play to the lore.

IMO the best way to stop much of the OOC we see in Arelith is to think up clever mechanics to combat it through IG action so that doing things that make very little sense is met with some kind of consequence. There would be no need for reports, no need for OOC ambiguity. It would all be kept IG. Would it completely stop contradictions fueled by OOC? No, but it would go a very long way to policing things in ways that make sense within the lore. It would also train newer players that they aren't playing avatars, but characters. If you pick something heavily based on lore that provides power, you either stick with the lore, or lose the power. That message that actions IG have consequence, ultimately filters through to players in all senses.

I've played on NWN servers since the game came out and it's a fallacy that people will RP things that don't exist. Players that know OOC that risk does not exist, simply (on the whole, there are some real good apples out there), but on the whole they change their RP. They take more risks, they do things they wouldn't do, they push the lore to breaking point when the lines simply aren't there IG.

As an example, I tend to subdual 9/10 in PvP. In the majority of these encounters the players that have been subdualed, have either got right back up and rejoined in the fighting, ignored the subdual when they've been RPed with that they are incapacitated, or instantly used it as a means to escape. Unfortunately, the majority of players in my experience, simply do not 'play pretend' unless it is mechanically enforced and if Arelith truly wants to be an RP world, it should focus more on mechanics imo that can enforce the lore and the setting, especially for religious and class driven choices that provide power, because many of these are only balanced by social restrictions that are mechanically enforced in DnD.

If it doesn't want the above, then that's fine, but right now I think we're in a situation where there are groups who want to play Arelith like it's a true DnD world (i'd say I'm in this group), but feel ultimately hamstrung and then others who play it like it's more of an adventure server with RP elements, who don't want to be forced into doing things they aren't happy with, or expecting OOC. Both of these approaches are fine, people play the game for difference reasons, but mechanically & identity wise Arelith is caught somewhere in the middle also. It has some narrative tools, but only really superficial ones and players notice this in the long term.

Arelith to me right now, is a great game to think up character concepts, get them to 30, enjoy that journey and see those characters come to fruitition. But once that element is done? It really feels like there isn't much to do that has true weight outside of simply grinding for gold, 5%ing your stuff, having ultimately toothless PvP encounters, or roleplaying passively in the hub areas of the world. The true end goals for characters once they reach a certain level of power really need to simply be acted out in the knowledge nothing will ever come of them and that can turn off a lot of players from putting in what requires a ton of effort in organizing groups and leading things, to know it's ultimately going nowhere.

[The GrumpyCat]

Adressing a few small points

- Just to be clear reguarding my last post, I'm not saying, 'If you don't like arelith go somewhere else bah!' (though up to a point that can be true) but I do think it's a good idea to check out other servers from time to time... Not to leave Arelith entirely but to see how others do it, get some ideas, some thoughts, and so on. If you end up saying great, if not even better! But it's always an interesting experience.

I agree with much of what the OP wrote, but there is one key difference. I am more of a carrot then a stick guy. I would rather see players adhering to the server vision, whatever that may be, getting benefits as a result. Not punishments for those who do not. My thinking behind this is that anyone and everyone can eventually get better.

I'd MUCH rather see the expected quality of RP on arelith - whatever form that takes, encouraged via reward than via punishment. I'm not saying Punishments don't have their place, but on the whole Rewards are always better IMO.

I mean, one of the issues I think I have a lot as a DM is I find it really difficult to award players for good behaviour/rp. In the olden days, XP used to be a good angle. But now most people level to 30 so quick, that most of the time I just don't have that as an option. There are ideas in the pipeline for this though.

I do agree that we could run some more events. In theory I'd love to see another 'big event' go down. But it's a matter of having time for it. I myself just CAN'T run such things now. I've a 2 year old toddler who doesn't always sleep well at night. I am in a position where I've very little free time to run, and if he wakes up, I have to step away from my computer and go to him and that's just not a good position to run a huge, high octane event in. (Though surely I could do some smaller, more intimate NPC type events, and I may do so going forward.)

I can't speak for the rest of the DM team, but if anyone wants to run something big, and has the time to do so, they absolutly have my blessing.

EDIT

The true end goals for characters once they reach a certain level of power really need to simply be acted out in the knowledge nothing will ever come of them and that can turn off a lot of players from putting in what requires a ton of effort in organizing groups and leading things, to know it's ultimately going nowhere.

This is probably something that's not going to change any time soon, in any great way. And I know that sounds VERY negative and trust me, I'd LOVE to have a server where characters actions had more weight. But the problem is that huge, sweeping changes a) take up a LOT of time b) make a lot of salt and C) have to be considered with server balence in mind too.

To use the example of say, a solid attempt for Andunor to take over Cordor?
* Replacing the current areas with 'ruined' bits or what have you would require many, many hours work.
* It would annoy countless players. Can you imagine the rage if the reverse happened to Andunor? And yeah, we can go 'oh they're just big ol' crybabies.' but that doesn't change that they'd be hugely upset and that's a LOT to deal with.
* It would lead to problems like - where do people start? Does a whole new starter area need to be made? How is that going to work? I believe both Andunor and Guldorand took Irongron Literal YEARS to make. He's not going to undo that work for player action lightly. It has issues of balence, fun, and yeah honestly keeping other people happy. Sure your awsome group of 50 players destoryed Cordor through neat IC actions -but now all players in perpeturity can't play their concepts.

So some level of stasis will always be the case.

Now don't get me wrong. Maybe there could be some effort in doing some small player changes, that'd be cool. But it'd have to be very carefully thought out.

For what it's worth - I try to think of Arelith like an episode of Star Trek. The old time ones. On a meta level you know that the chances are all the characters are going to be OK, that the ship isn't really going to be destroyed, that the status quo isn't ever really going to be hugely changed. But that's not the point. The point is the characters don't know that. And the story is about their (and your) growth as a character. How they evolve, how they conqure (or not) the challenges put before them. Yeah sure, what youv'e done will likely be gone in the next episode reset, but the journey you took to go there remains.

[AstralUniverse]

The server is doing fantastically. The administration is more open and active than ever. I will say that I do think the server could benefit from more DM-driven events, but I know that is a mixed bag for a lot of people. Many avoid DM events like the plague. Sometimes I do, too, if I'm not in the mood. I've said this before, though, that the Heartstone Crisis was one of my favorite times in Arelith. The environment now is not so different than it was then.

I'm one of those people who avoid DM plots like the plague more often than not but the heartstone plot was 100% awesome and while DM presence never dictated or had a big part in my enjoyment in arelith I'm not against more of those.

[Borin Drakkmurl]

This will likely sound childish to many, and perhaps it will not be a very deep nor complex argument, but to me there are two things that stick out like sore thumbs and that are likely a cause and symptom of what a lot of people have also been feeling:

-Running.
-Writs.

I'll be the first to admit that a lot of this has to do with the fact that I grew up on Arelith when I did. It was a very different server and community back then. Hell, gaming and DND as a whole weren't at the same place they are right now.

Even still. The moment I realised that running everywhere, wether alone or not, rping or not, was no longer a basic pillar of what the server understood as its overall rp etiquette, was also the moment I realised that this was no longer the place I was used to.

On a surface level, for a videogame, such a small and almost cosmetic thing as running rather than walking could be seen as absolutely harmless. I'm sure other players can list a bunch of reasons why it can make sense, and why we should not get worked up about it.
Yet it does matter.
This is the sort of stuff that used to be monitored and taught by the players themselves, with barely any need for DM intervention. Hell, I still remember receiving a tell from someone, explainning to me why I should walk rather than run, and how to hotkey it on my keyboard. Because it was important. Because it was about what we, as a whole, were trying to achieve in the pixelated world we were building together. The stories were trying to write together. It was nerdy as hell, but Arelith was more than just a single player rpg or a game like Diablo.

And that leads me to the Writ system.

Which I hate and love.
Being able to level up a character to epic in a matter of weeks rather than years is mind blowing. Specially for someone who was always extremely slow at it like me. Same goes for the gold coins you can get out of it.

However, despite how awesome that might be, a lot was lost along the way. Struggle isn't always a bad thing. Perhaps there's a happy medium somewhere, but I'd honestly prefer to take longer to level up and have it be more meaningfull, than have it feel like a mandatory race that I need to run so that I don't lag behind everyone else.

For me, at least, this is what has contributed the most to turn Arelith more into an mmo with rp elements, than a server that heavily (often to a fault) enforced ROLE PLAY first, no matter what, in ways that no other did.


I'm aware this all might sound like the good ol "but my immersion!" whinning but...that's precisely what all of it is about. Because that's what Arelith has, or had, always been about.

A community of players wanting to immerse themselves in the type of fantasy/dnd stories they so enjoyed, almost as if stepping inside a book.

And that's also what seems to have been diluted.

Perhaps that's a good thing. Everything needs to evolve. And I'm not all doom and gloom about it. So much has improved for the better that it's insane to even contemplate.

But it's no surprise that many are left feeling kind of lost and out of place through it all.


(I'm aware this was a bit of a rambling and aimless post, and I might edit it to be more coherent later. Also I know that I offer no real solutions, just what was on my mind, and for that I apologize.)

[Aradin]

There are a few voices in this thread that speak about players' actions having little impact on the world at large. That's a big thing for me as well - I want to feel like my character matters, you know? Like I've got a stake in the world, because it can be affected based on what I do. Depending on the character concept that's still very achievable in Arelith - characters whose plots are low-stakes and/or characters built for social RP are great for that - but if you're playing a mover-and-shaker then I agree with some of the others here that you often feel very stifled. It feels like it doesn't really matter how lore-friendly or impactful your cause is, it doesn't really matter how much support playerside you drum up or what actions you end up taking - you're just not going to change the world. Arelith is not a living, breathing world that can respond to what players do in a meaningful way. It can't be. As illustrated by Grumpycat there are too many players for that level of hands on, world-changing approach from DMs. Other players can respond to what you do, but they too are equally limited in not being able to interact with the static background of the setting.

That to me is a bummer, but it's something I understand. It would be insanity to have the DMs try to take a more personal approach to Arelith as it stands today, and I don't think hiring tons of DMs would solve that because each of them have different and possibly conflicting approaches to interacting with the world. We've already seen instances where NPCs controlled by multiple DMs at various times have different personalities and/or little continuity with themselves. The more DMs that are on the team, the more they encounter the same challenge as the playerbase: agreeing to and moving forward under a unified vision.

I think ultimately that Arelith is going to have an increasingly difficult time being a roleplay server as it grows in size. Roleplaying isn't something you can do on your own. It requires everyone around you to be involved. I think we've all encountered players who are only half-heartedly or not at all roleplaying, and the more players like that that can continue to enjoy Arelith in that fashion - well, the more they'll enjoy Arelith in that fashion.
I don't even think ill of these people, because you can't expect people to follow guidelines if those guidelines are unclear and/or unenforced. If I'm someone who's just worked a grueling day and has a few hours to go grind some dungeons to relax, today's Arelith is a place I can do that. And if no one tells me that mindless no-RP grinding is against the server direction, and/or I never receive any flak or slaps on the wrist from any DMs, and/or other players encourage and join me why would I feel like I'm doing anything wrong?

Arelith absolutely has something for everyone, and in some ways that's a good thing. I've had fun on all my characters for different reasons and I continue to have fun. But I feel like the more Arelith has something for everyone, the less it has an identity of its own. Honestly it would be nice just to get a clear and updated set of expectations for playing on Arelith in 2021. Knowing what is possible and works well and is encouraged (as well as knowing what isn't okay, what rule enforcement will look like, etc.) genuinely helps me have more fun because I'm not creating characters with concepts and arcs that don't work in the Arelith setting. I'm pretty happy to play along with whatever identity Arelith decides for itself, but I'm a little lost on what that is right now.

[Duchess Says]

It might be nice if there were a role just beneath DM who didn't have full administrative powers but was able to set up and run adventures for other players. Something Arelith could potentially use more of is traditional D&D dungeon crawls and so on as a break from the settlement and faction conflicts and the grinding spots. I know that's easier suggested than done of course but I've always wished I could do something like that here... Create a little side adventure to take a party on without trying to become a full DM.

I do think some of the magic has been lost in the RP, but how much of that is from the sheer repetition that's inevitable on something like this? Anyone who's been around a while will see endlessly recurring patterns, very similar characters and the same story beats told again and again. I will fully admit I find it harder to invest when I am thinking "not this again..." and that's something I need to work on.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Why are so many people in this thread determined to make Arelith unfun? The fast leveling and ease of gearing is one of its strengths. It's easy to make a character and get involved in the server. There's not an issue of 10 year old characters being able to lord over everyone else.

"Arelith is low RP" is a bad meme. I heard tons of it before I came here, and it's untrue. There are people who treat things like a MMO and who rush through things on any sizable server. The general quality of Arelith is really high, a lot higher than people give it credit for. There's nobody RPing among us in the outskirts, and I rarely see people using smily faces. There aren't giant OOC arguments, or going OOC to correct other peoples' RP with dubious "advice" which is often inaccurate.

Something I've noticed on other servers, which thankfully is less of a problem here, is that people who try and police peoples' RP the most also tend to contribute the least to the overall server narrative. They don't care about telling a compelling story, they just want to complain and bring everyone else down.

Don't be that person. I think the best solution to any of these problems is to get in game and RP. If you think people are doing something wrong, then lead by example and do things to teach lore. Make things fun for other players.

[ZeroPointEnergy]

When I think "Low RP" I think of World of Warcraft roleplay where all of it was literally just social RP because there wasn't an infrastructure in place for anything else.

Like we're taking it all for granted but 90% of you people try to stay in character. Everything from speedies to message boards to the writ system is a video game mechanic but with an in-character coat of paint on it.

And honestly if you don't like running, fast leveling, or writs then unironically go play prisoners of the mist. That has those kinds of mechanics in there where you get penalized for running too much and see if that's actually something you like to practice. Because I came here for the fast leveling and be on the same footing mechanically without some 9 year old character having it all.

[The Rambling Midget]

"Arelith is low RP" is a bad meme.

Regarding this sentiment, I want to clarify what I mean, and what I certainly hope certain others have meant, when I say that I no longer consider Arelith to be a RP server.

There's the server and there's the community. One can't survive without the other, but each has it's own distinct personality. This community - at least the part of it that's active on the forums - is, without any doubt, a community of RPers. There is RP on Arelith.

What I'm referring to is the directional push of the server, meaning the staff leading it. Normally, this would come from some form of mission statement, but since we don't have one which is clear and unified, we can only extrapolate from what behavioral standards the staff enforces, and what developer time is spent on. By and large, that time is spent on mechanical changes. As RP rules have become more and more relaxed, the only ones that are truly enforced are Stay In Character, Don't Break Immersion, and RP Before PvP/24 Hour Rule. So, we don't do OOC in chat, we don't bring the real world into the game, and we don't wordlessly gank people or show up when we should be dead. That's a pretty barebones framework, and doesn't put any onus on players to do more than pretend to fit in.

All of this is fine, if that's what the server environment is intended to be, but there's still a large subset of the community that believes it's on a heavily RP focused server, and providing nearly the entirety of the push in that direction, while confused as to why that push isn't being noticeably supported.

I don't think that bombarding the server with DM events is necessarily the solution, (I'm one of those who generally avoid them like the plague) but it could be as simple as setting out a clear statement that RP is the highest priority.

[xanrael]

I think as far as "impact" goes, ignoring area design modifications (which requires area developers), impact may not work out between factions/players due to a somewhat asynchronous nature.

If for example you wanted to play out a major battle/war in a novel (or in some games) everyone from both sides would be present.

That's not how it often works out in game. One side may have 3/4s of their players available and the other 1/4 and then the large side may expect it to be the climatic fight. This may repeat the next day with numbers and expectations reversed. You don't have a case where both sides are willing to commit before the fight that "this will be the deciding conflict for the next arc" and it can turn into a ganking competition.

It doesn't have to be PvP related, but I think part of advantage seeking behavior when taken too far can actually undermine people accepting results.

[I will never sleep]

I don't have the words to express what I want to just yet, and I hope they come to me before the thread devolves and is locked.

I feel the same as this, at the moment.

It's interesting to read here and see people listing of bullet point exact thoughts I have had since February. Contributing to the server on a larger scale is ultimately a lost cause (ultimately an exercise in frustration), and has been for me and a lot of people for a while due to both cultural issues and lack of player agency. Eventually it becomes better to just tailor your rp around it and then you get the "Social RP" (whoa buzzword) everyone hates and was all the discussion a year or so back. Just some thoughts as my actual thoughts on the state of Arelith are very unstructured at the moment and I don't want to phrase them poorly.

[Zavandar]

I'd like for someone to define what "high rp" and/or "heavy rp" is to me. I want them to also explain how this server met that definition 10, 5, or even 2 years ago.

I'd also like for someone to explain how volunteer developer time should be dedicated to rp. What should they be developing?

Also, how is Arelith less structured now compared to whatever point in time people felt it was more structured?

[Flower Power]

That's not how it often works out in game. One side may have 3/4s of their players available and the other 1/4 and then the large side may expect it to be the climatic fight. This may repeat the next day with numbers and expectations reversed. You don't have a case where both sides are willing to commit before the fight that "this will be the deciding conflict for the next arc" and it can turn into a ganking competition.

The only good and entertaining major war/conflict I've ever been involved in on Arelith involved a lot of OOC communication between the leaders of the respective settlements/factions and a lot of willingness on both ends to place reasonable restrictions on themselves and their respective faction's involvement in individual scenarios in order to present an interesting and level playing field for both groups with genuine stakes.

That level of OOC communication during a conflict and willingness to risk losing, frankly, does not happen on Arelith anymore and I very much doubt it ever will again. Individual communities (and even subcommunities within a given community) do not like, respect or trust one another enough for it to happen.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I think people who keep posting about "Arelith problems" ought to go play other servers for a while. Everywhere I have RPed has had these "problems."

Before Arelith I played on PotM, and all of these "problems" exist there as well. The last time I played there I saw a Lolthite drow doing soc RP with humans in the Vistani camp. I've watched people go on giant OOC rants using //. The OOC dungeon grind is much more intense than Arelith, because it takes more grinding to level. There's an illusion of FOIC, where it's only FOIC if you're not in a clique.

With that said, it is a good server and is worth checking out. I'm only pointing out these things to highlight that these "problems" exist everywhere. PotM's RP quality is the same as Arelith's, what's different is the flavour. PotM is atmosphere heavy and has an entirely different focus than Arelith. A lot of people there complain about "player agency," ironically making threads that sound a lot like this one. A lot of things I didn't like about PotM I grew to appreciate after playing Arelith, such as the long travel times. Gank squads can't instantly come and murder lowbies if it takes half an hour to get to Vallaki from the mist camp.

If a server doesn't have these "problems," it means it's a dying game or community. It means it's not fun to play. There's endless games (and other NWN servers) out there full of forum people arguing how hardcore they want the game to be, who try and push people out, who keep demanding for the game to be worse. And then the game dies because it sucks and nobody wants to play it.

Elitism is the real problem in this thread. It is a game killer.

[The GrumpyCat]

To touch on something others have... people are talking 'impact' and 'consequence' and 'changing the server' and such.

I'd be very interested in people giving some fictional examples of what they mean? What sort of things would they invision being avaiable in such a situaiton?

My immedate concerns, as I said before, is two fold.

a) That the Developers won't have time to keep up with amount of area changes people want

b) If you want to move and shake... you also have to be OK with being Moved and Shook.

Flower touches on this and it's kinda important . You want bigger consequences for your actions on Arelith? Ok, but if you want to be able to destroy Cordor, you also have to be OK with Andunor being destroyed.

I will say - some of this harkens back 'ye olde days' of Arelith. But the ability to make big changes to the server? Not really a thing in all my time playing. Hells! Actually NOW is about as maluble as it's ever been! Irongron DOES sometimes make changes to mix with Player work - it's rare but it happens. I mean no disrespect to the prior developers, but I saw far, far, far, far less of it in Mithreas/JJJerms day.

Another question - is this more common on other NWN servers? I've not noticed it I must admit but my time on other servers isn't as extensive. Do other servers do regular large, player changes?

[Dr. B]

The entire debate comes down to a choice between more heavy-RP focus or more players. The more the developers enforce heavy roleplay, the fewer players there will be. This isn't to say the server will be less fun, but it will be fun for a smaller niche of players. The question is whether you can sustain an adequate player base long-term if you choose the roleplay-heavy path. If you're not careful, you risk losing the playerbase and destroying the server.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

For what it's worth - I try to think of Arelith like an episode of Star Trek. The old time ones. On a meta level you know that the chances are all the characters are going to be OK, that the ship isn't really going to be destroyed, that the status quo isn't ever really going to be hugely changed. But that's not the point. The point is the characters don't know that. And the story is about their (and your) growth as a character. How they evolve, how they conqure (or not) the challenges put before them. Yeah sure, what youv'e done will likely be gone in the next episode reset, but the journey you took to go there remains.

Bit off, but I love that phrasing of things!

I always argued we don't need mechanics to "up the stakes" since ICly the stakes are pretty massive as is, it's just you as a player, when you get home from work/school/etc know that all will be there, all will be fine and you can lose yourself and focus on your character's fears rather than your own worries of "will I be able to log in again tomorrow"


I'm stealing that for my repertoire.



On topic,

I think writs are actually beneficial for RP. It might just be my personal experience, but I often have great difficulties justifying going to dungeons if it's not undead or some opposing faith. Having writs that say "Patrol this area, deliver this item, eliminate this lich/priest" actually helps give context to adventuring, and I actually have a IC reason for going to a dungeon rather than either

A) Blindly stumble into caves
B) Ask people for advice ICly which... feels off for me.
C) Ask people for advice where to go OOCly, which feels even more off.

Writs tell you where to go, give you proper reason to go there - and some of them are even justifiably repeatable IC! (patrol Arelith forest, patrol this road, deliver this thing).

edit: PvE difficulty was mentioned by a post later on. I personally feel easier PvE contributes to better RP opportunities. The first NWN1 server I tried had its PvE balanced around needing a party of 6, and needing permahaste and all the short duration buffs or otherwise you die. This was... not very RP compatible.

Whereas on Arelith, I play in a duo and we just use hour/cl spells and do just fine and have time to RP and interact and use emotes to enhance immersion through detail.

Arelith is prolly the only server I played out of NWN1 and NWN2 (I avoid PoTM like the plague due to different tastes) where such is possible. BGTSCC on NWN2 comes closest, and the enemy respawn rate kinda kills it there.


Social RP - why is it considered low RP? If you achieve high immersion, help your fellow players through appropriate quantity of detail to imagine the same sights/sounds/etc so they can too achieve high immersion - isn't that the apex of RP? Why does it being focused on social matters over conflict diminish that?

Unless we have different definitions of social RP. In my definition of it, setting is respected - including alignment & religious association, and it's simply called social because the purpose is to experience characters, explore their histories, motivations, needs, wants. While conflict RP uses characters as puppets on a string to push a certain narrative where the characters play second fiddle to something overarching.

[Ebonstar]

To touch on something others have... people are talking 'impact' and 'consequence' and 'changing the server' and such.

I'd be very interested in people giving some fictional examples of what they mean? What sort of things would they invision being avaiable in such a situaiton?

My immedate concerns, as I said before, is two fold.

a) That the Developers won't have time to keep up with amount of area changes people want

b) If you want to move and shake... you also have to be OK with being Moved and Shook.

Flower touches on this and it's kinda important . You want bigger consequences for your actions on Arelith? Ok, but if you want to be able to destroy Cordor, you also have to be OK with Andunor being destroyed.

I will say - some of this harkens back 'ye olde days' of Arelith. But the ability to make big changes to the server? Not really a thing in all my time playing. Hells! Actually NOW is about as maluble as it's ever been! Irongron DOES sometimes make changes to mix with Player work - it's rare but it happens. I mean no disrespect to the prior developers, but I saw far, far, far, far less of it in Mithreas/JJJerms day.

Another question - is this more common on other NWN servers? I've not noticed it I must admit but my time on other servers isn't as extensive. Do other servers do regular large, player changes?

Ive played on servers that varied styles.

City of Arabel - low magic low level 10th was a god character after the expansions came out and they put on xp siphons and kept full inventory drops that anyone walking by could loot fully. DM run factions and heavy nepotism for the friends of the DMs with without whom you would never get past lvl 12 even grinding everywhere the repeating quests. Quests taken that would cause a full city invasion that affected every player beyond those running the quest even as level 1s while the quest was lvl 10. Played here from when Game debuted until we formed a player run faction that upset the DM leads who then arrested all our characters and executed them to reclaim the DM factions are the leaders motif. Several CoA players came to Arelith and are still around.

Layonara - played for two years right after CoA. Had its own PnP lore brought to NWN totally homebrew from the ground up. Had multiple Campaign arcs that the DMs ran and there were no truly evil player characters so as to keep everyone over the long run working toward the over arcs completion. Had Arelith player numbers until the Team decided after winning a Module HOF award to go toward the WoW mmo in an attempt to make money. needless to say its a pale shadow of its former self.

Cormanthor and the Dales - same time as Layonara liked the character creation freedom, but again DMs had their little groups and it slowly died.

Arelith to present - now while I have run into build killers and balance things like everyone else, I just love the server that only work has taken me from for my free time. That the community even talks together at all, puts it head over heels above any other server out there. That the Teams communicate with the community, put it head over heels above any other server, that beleive it not have their little dev cliques that tell the players to suck it up or leave. Hence why very few other servers have more than 20 players.

The Teams and Irongron pay attention and as everyone knows you cannot please everyone all the time, but they try to keep the servers fresh evolving and attractive to everyone as they can.

Staying in Character is a very simple and easy rule, that the so called RP Lite servers fail at miserably. You can go log in and the right chat window is nothing but Shouts for " looking for a rogue level # meet at #" or the similar in a constant scroll. Players that want that Warcraft crap experience will always find their way to those places, where they can have wings and tails and jiggly bits or whatever.
Enforcing RP is not a hard thing to ask for as long as its stated very clearly in the entry room. That as I see it will fix everything in this debate.

we always help new players in tells, or give them tours even if we play evil in the Underdark. Its just varied how its done.
Those players who hate RP heavy are in two styles.
the wing tail jigglies I mentions above, and the have to be a max level no matter what style.

Neither tend to stick around in Arelith, or play NWN for very long. No need to cater to those who are in these styles.

NWN is DnD after all. This is why we play, this is why we RP. If it isnt broken dont mess it up trying to fix it

[Royal Blood]

Quick post!

I agree Arelith has gotten more MMO like. RP-lite is a good way to describe it. I think this will stay this way though because the player base has like scalped their DM team. Unlike DnD like DMs here are more like HR reps. I think RP could easily become more dominant If DMs were expected to be more involved as actual DMs.

Some of the best long term plots I've been involved with have been navigated by DMs using the world to react to player choice. However, I've also seen most of those events go sideways and lots of retcons and people complaining etc...

I think Arelith is okay atm though. Most players are RP focused. I think expecting DMs to be involved then allowing them to be would be healthy BUT only with certain changes to increase like the IC dynamic.

Edit: Grumpy said it perfect. If you want more movement and shaking then YOU HAVE to be able to be moved and shook.

I don't think the community at large is able to handle that ATM. But I would love to see it.

For example the fact people are still OOC salty AF about Wharftown. Or geesh even Lights Keep which I've never even seen personally that was way before my time but I still see saltiness about it.

An example of this working might be like: What if there was an RP plot around the new Lodestone scrying Network in Cordor instead of it just being implemented? Like a back and forth which would have determined if it got installed or not?

That might be neat.

Stuff i've hated is just things appearing. Like an update hits and there's randomly what everyone thought was the Arcane Tower 2.0 the Tungsten Turret. Or the sudden appearance of an election district etc... No IC build up. No story or anything just poof! I think that's what separates Arelith from a more RP centric server and an MMO style server