Greatswords - the worse 2 handed weapon

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

And with the latest update, this thread is solved.

Thanks Staff!

It doesn't solve my unquenchable thirst of a greatsword for Torm, but it does remove any amount of weight from arguments!

(and yes, good job staff).

[Kenji]

It was either a greatsword of Torm or a not-Ornstein pike dubbed with Torm/Bahamut lore.

The choice was easy.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

It was either a greatsword of Torm or a not-Ornstein pike dubbed with Torm/Bahamut lore.

The choice was easy.

AHAHAHAH

of course.

[Security_Blanket]

Having to invest in UMD (which means you of course NEED to be a class that gets UMD) in order to get a weapon that puts you on the same playing field as other weapons that did not need to invest, how is this a feasible argument? I love Great swords, thematically, as a person that enjoys that specific weapon, yes it does suck that there is only one viable option and it's restricted to a specific race.

According to the wiki, UMD doesn't bypass:

[ltlukoziuz]

According to the wiki, UMD doesn't bypass

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25&start=775#p278995

[SMITHING, OROG]
Orog Bastard Sword

Additional Property: Use Magic Device - +30
Damage Bonus: Bludgeoning 2 Damage
Enhancement Bonus +4
Extra Melee Damage Type: Bludgeoning
Keen
Use Limitation: Racial Type: Half-Orc
Use Limitation: Racial Type: Orc
Weight Increase 30 lbs.
ILR 21
Base Strength Requirement: 22

[SMITHING, OROG]
Orog Slayer-sword (renamed from Orog Greatsword)

Additional Property: Use Magic Device - +30
Damage Bonus: Bludgeoning 3 Damage
Enhancement Bonus +4
Extra Melee Damage Type: Bludgeoning
Keen
Use Limitation: Racial Type: Half-Orc
Use Limitation: Racial Type: Orc
Weight Increase 50 lbs.
ILR 21
Base Strength Requirement: 24

It both now has UMD bypass (30) (actually, always had iirc, just was obscure knowledge), and is opened to all orcish races

[Security_Blanket]

Yea, so you're options are A, be either half-orc or more, or B, have a class that gives you UMD then make a big investment (I don't care what you say, 30 points is a big investment). Or of course option C, pick a different weapon. If you want to be a Paladin with a great sword, well then you also need to be a Rogue, Specialist, or Bard, pure Paladins with great swords are a thing of fiction ya know. Pure Fighter human with a great sword? Now that's crazy talk, everyone knows only rogues and half-orcs use great swords.

[Drowboy]

Having to build for a +4 weapon is universal among all +4 weapons.

If you want a +4 dagger you take assassin or a umd class

Longsword? Elf or umd

Katar? Exotic or monk and then the right class or, well,

There's probably some I'm missing but the characterization here seems hyperbolic. (And a paladin would want enchanted bronze, no?)

[ltlukoziuz]

Ehrmmmm, at that point, you should make an argument against ALL racial/class weapons. Dead Man's Cross, Dale Swod, Moonblade, etc. - there's a lot of weapons which have better alternatives if you're X race/class. What's wrong with that? If you're a paladin, you're supposed to grab a dinky bronze greatsword and dweomer it because of Bless Weapon anyway, as that will be miles better than anything else, and even if you weren't paladin, masterly damask is absolutely serviceable and the difference is miniscule (there's very little DR effects (any?) where +3 vs +4 will matter)

[Drowboy]

The, what, 5% overall improvement of 3 -> 4 needs to have a sacrifice or a cost attached, even if it's only thematic, or we might as well embrace power creep and make everything +4.

The new chaotic great sword looks good and if you aren't willing to build chaotic or take UMD or use an orc-derivative then, idunno, maybe you don't want the 5% more than you want to be a lawful human 30 fighter, at which point you should recognize that the problem isn't the itemization.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Yea, so you're options are A, be either half-orc or more, or B, have a class that gives you UMD then make a big investment (I don't care what you say, 30 points is a big investment). Or of course option C, pick a different weapon. If you want to be a Paladin with a great sword, well then you also need to be a Rogue, Specialist, or Bard, pure Paladins with great swords are a thing of fiction ya know. Pure Fighter human with a great sword? Now that's crazy talk, everyone knows only rogues and half-orcs use great swords.

In light of, unmentioned genre, pikes.. i understand; I was blinded sided because we gave dwarves Lawful greataxes and then we made Chaotic greataxes. Like if I make a dwarven rager, I want to use a greataxe, not a greatsword (even though greatsword is great for Guts themed characters).

*EDIT*

This is all just personal preferences though.

[dominantdrowess]

If you want to use a greatsword, you accept the less-than-optimal choice to use it. Very similar to using a halbard or greataxe. It just isn't a falchion - and that's fine.

That is of course if we exclude the orog greatsword which is most likely one of the best weapons in the game.

I basined 40 Masterly Damask Falchions in a month and a half, and then bought a 2.5 million gold Masterwork Rune. If you want to take your character as far as it can go? You need to use a Falchion. This is just what you do.

The new greatswords do not - and cannot - compete except for the fact that they make the playstyle more accessible.. but with the Falchion? When I whirlwind a crowd of NPC's and blood flies everywhere.. or get a knockdown on a dexer? I'm incredibly happy with the immediate results of having an 11 point critical range on a 20 sided dice.

I still would drop my existing Masterly Damask Greatsword, and Basin 40 Falchions (failing 40 times) and then buy the rune, to do it again in a heartbeat without even blinking if the difference was 3 points of critical range against knocked down rogues and monks.

It's not even a contest.

But not everyone is insane. Not everyone wants to spend millions of gold, or does dungeons enough to get Pure Zardizik multiple times in a character's career (Saslae Xun'viir has been lucky enough to be present for 4; and I don't dungeon that much anymore)... and these weapons, while close to 10%-15% inferior in some situations, are still very useful for allowing people to enjoy the playstyle without the insane investment.

Even a rogue is probably better off with a Keen M.Damask rapier than a moonblade in a lot of situations; though the difference is significantly smaller in non-strength builds because a rogue's sneak attack isn't multiplied by the crits.. but when you see a paladin with a rapier or a scimitar: You need to take that seriously.

Keen M.Damask is, and probably should remain king, just because of how much effort it takes to get them on average compared to the number of people who try. On average, a Keen Masterly Damask weapon is usually worth 50,000 (Adi ingot), 8,000 (Mithril Ingot), and like.. 35,000 gold per masterly damask if you're getting "the friend" price and providing both your own materials? Masterly Damask weapons sold in a shop are probably "worth" 80 to 100,000 gold, though people often charge more to strangers.

A 5% roll is generally 1 out of 20. That's a ... general value of.. probably just less than 2 million gold worth of time and energy... when you could just make one of the easier items and contribute to your settlement's auctions and gearing.

IMO: If you're part of a team? The gold is better spent elsewhere. But if you want to surprise people by taking out a 660 hitpoint barbarian or a ranger-weapons master in 2 rounds with a true-strike knockdown? Gotta Keen the M.Damask Falchion or Scythe. There is no alternative for those opportunities. Ork is absolutely right.

If the option is between: "I dump this M. Damask in the Basin, and my friend keeps using Greensteel." Your friend having a non-keen M.Damask is superior to Greensteel when fighting side by side with you (even if the basin gives you the keen successfully ... unless your friend is carried and doesn't know how to play or use buffs)-- even on a W.M. But once your faction is 'basic geared'; you can go for the luxury items.

The problem I have with the current state of weapons masters is: You have to lock this choice in very, very early. So if you eventually /get/ rich? You basically have to relevel from level 6 or 7 back to Level 30 to use the superior gear you can now afford because you decided to get serious with your character.

I intentionally came back when universal relevel happened, because I didn't want to go through a vulnerability period where people "gank the Xun'viir" due to political garbage I might not even be aware of: Andunor is too tight-knit for people to not notice, and people make aggressive moves based on casual suspicion just for clout.

In my experience with all of these:
Green Steel (scim/falch/rapier/kukri) < M. Damask (scim/falch/rapier/kukri) < Keen (non-masterly - no adi) Damask (Greater Rune, not Masterwork) < Racial Weapon < Keen M. Damask (scim/falch/rapier/kukri) ... I don't think the Orog Greatsword was ever better than a keen Falchion.

That's precisely why the Falchion was introduced; and the orog bastardsword certainly could never be confused for better than the good ol' keen m. damask scimitar.

[Kenji]

It's time to streamline the weapons:

Tiny Weapons
Simple: 1d3, 18-20 x2, few 20 x2, finesse
Martial: 1d4, 18-20 x2, finesse
Exotic: 2d2, 18-20 x2, finesse

Small Weapons
Simple: 1d4, 19-20 x2, few 20 x2, finesse
Martial: 1d6, 19-20 x2, finesse
Exotic: 2d3, 19-20 x2, finesse, can be two-handed by small creatures, +1 AB and 1.5x str mod applies while 2H and/or finesse

Medium Weapons
Simple: 1d6, some 19-20 x2, some 20 x3, few 20 x2
Martial: 1d8, some 19-20 x2, some 20 x3
Exotic: 2d4, 19-20 x2, some can be finessed, can be two-handed by medium creatures, +1 AB and 1.5x str mod applies while 2H and/or finesse

Large Weapons
Simple: 1d10, 20 x3, few 20 x2
Martial: 1d12, 20 x3
Exotic: 3d4, 20 x3, can be two-handed by large creatures, +1 AB and 1.5x str mod applies while 2H

Begone with the scimitar/rapier meta and let the disarm meta begin!

I'll bet $10 bucks (which will go to patreon donations for Arelith) that this thread gets locked in 3 days time.

[Hazard]

It's time to streamline the weapons:

Tiny Weapons
Simple: 1d3, 18-20 x2, few 20 x2, finesse
Martial: 1d4, 18-20 x2, finesse
Exotic: 2d2, 18-20 x2, finesse

Small Weapons
Simple: 1d4, 19-20 x2, few 20 x2, finesse
Martial: 1d6, 19-20 x2, finesse
Exotic: 2d3, 19-20 x2, finesse, can be two-handed by small creatures, +1 AB and 1.5x str mod applies while 2H and/or finesse

Medium Weapons
Simple: 1d6, some 19-20 x2, some 20 x3, few 20 x2
Martial: 1d8, some 19-20 x2, some 20 x3
Exotic: 2d4, 19-20 x2, some can be finessed, can be two-handed by medium creatures, +1 AB and 1.5x str mod applies while 2H and/or finesse

Large Weapons
Simple: 1d10, 20 x3, few 20 x2
Martial: 1d12, 20 x3
Exotic: 3d4, 20 x3, can be two-handed by large creatures, +1 AB and 1.5x str mod applies while 2H

Begone with the scimitar/rapier meta and let the disarm meta begin!

I'll bet $10 bucks (which will go to patreon donations for Arelith) that this thread gets locked in 3 days time.

Ew, those crit ranges are disgusting. Gross. Lock this thread.

Also, I want in on the bet.

[ltlukoziuz]

Not my 18-20/x2 TwoBladed Sword /s

[LovelyLightningWitch]

Ehrmmmm, at that point, you should make an argument against ALL racial/class weapons. Dead Man's Cross, Dale Swod, Moonblade, etc. - there's a lot of weapons which have better alternatives if you're X race/class. What's wrong with that? If you're a paladin, you're supposed to grab a dinky bronze greatsword and dweomer it because of Bless Weapon anyway, as that will be miles better than anything else, and even if you weren't paladin, masterly damask is absolutely serviceable and the difference is miniscule (there's very little DR effects (any?) where +3 vs +4 will matter)

Honestly, as an elf main, I'd love Moonblades disappearing, and getting re-fluffed as a non-elf specific weapon.

Moonblades as they are make no sense in lore. Not even a single bit. Even as "lesser moonblades."

[dominantdrowess]

It's time to streamline the weapons:

Tiny Weapons
Simple: 1d3, 18-20 x2, few 20 x2, finesse
Martial: 1d4, 18-20 x2, finesse
Exotic: 2d2, 18-20 x2, finesse

Small Weapons
Simple: 1d4, 19-20 x2, few 20 x2, finesse
Martial: 1d6, 19-20 x2, finesse
Exotic: 2d3, 19-20 x2, finesse, can be two-handed by small creatures, +1 AB and 1.5x str mod applies while 2H and/or finesse

Medium Weapons
Simple: 1d6, some 19-20 x2, some 20 x3, few 20 x2
Martial: 1d8, some 19-20 x2, some 20 x3
Exotic: 2d4, 19-20 x2, some can be finessed, can be two-handed by medium creatures, +1 AB and 1.5x str mod applies while 2H and/or finesse

Large Weapons
Simple: 1d10, 20 x3, few 20 x2
Martial: 1d12, 20 x3
Exotic: 3d4, 20 x3, can be two-handed by large creatures, +1 AB and 1.5x str mod applies while 2H

Begone with the scimitar/rapier meta and let the disarm meta begin!

I'll bet $10 bucks (which will go to patreon donations for Arelith) that this thread gets locked in 3 days time.

@Kenji

Doesn't this just racially lock more builds by making non-racial weapon-capable builds 20x harder to execute without being able to be parody with the average character who's currently just doing it to be easier? Not to mention I feel these specific number setups you've listed benefit sneak attack builds more than strength.

It doesn't just reduce the diversity of weapons (of which the new weapons have created given the sheer number of people using them) ... but it reduces people's reason to invest in Arelith past what's easiest in the first place. Race just comes to rule even for the average player in this case and the longer-term investment no longer matters. I don't see a point to this unless racial weapons are also removed - which I suspect goes against the objective of this suggestion, no?

I am interested in understanding the intended impact of these specific changes, which is why I'm asking the writer directly rather than making assumptions. I might have it wrong; because I think they're mathematically superior for classes that don't benefit as much from crit; which alters things in favor of certain classes after wide-sweeping class balance changes just got made.

Also, what is the point of statements made about publicly betting for things to get locked?

I feel like currently, there is a relatively good balance between "easy" and "pay 10x more time and gold for something better" on Arelith, no? Yes, some people get 'lucky' but that is by far a minority.

Admittedly: I don't know you well, so I could be missing sarcasm; and I am making no accusations; just want it explained when it comes to the expected impact on Masterwork Rune/5% (20x additional time and cost comparatively) and the racial weapons having absolutely superior enchantments with MUCH reduced cost.. I feel like this re-enforces racial superiority meta.

I think statistically being able to compete with the average meta character for additional investment is a good thing that brings wider build diversity. These keen m.damask weapons with these higher crit-ratings are *the* justification for the racial weapons having +4 and automatic keen + free rune, yes?

I feel like.. some of these changes you're proposing force racial weapons to basically become *just* m.damask or they flat destroy m.damask weapons entirely ... even if M.Damask was boosted to become exact parodies wouldn't that just be bad for different reasons?

[Curve]

I’m still mulling your post but it probably deserves its own thread.

[Draco]

Yea, it sounds more like an argument against 18-20 crit range, which I tend to agree. What real benefit is there to take a longsword over a scimitar? But, yea, this deserves its own thread.

[dominantdrowess]

Yea, it sounds more like an argument against 18-20 crit range, which I tend to agree. What real benefit is there to take a longsword over a scimitar? But, yea, this deserves its own thread.

The problem with it being its own issue is: These issues are inherently linked because many of the enchanted crafting weapons exist because of these stat differences. That is why the discussion needs to be in the same thread. Balance topics are each, by their very nature, connected.

The benefit is that the Scimitar doesn't have an easy-craft version you can pick up for 1-10th the cost and time investment, and the availability of M.Damask allows for a wider build for classes that do not include rogue or bard (and I think loremaster?) levels to encourage build diversity since a majority of people do use these easy-craft weapons. It's literally about the level of investment given the M.Damask has a MASSIVE (and I believe unreasonable) gold and time wall behind it that most players on Arelith do not have the patience for: Which is what makes those weapons so appealing to people when they see someone who's living the dream through determination and 20x the cost if they want to avoid the race-weapon meta or aren't of a build that allows it.

Another benefit of these weapons being shown like this is that you can look at another character's in-game description (their stats), race, armor-type, and their weapon, and it can give you at least a best guess as to what their class makeup. That's the real benefit of having the non-racial weapon available in some cross-race situations. Most 2-hander builds using a Falchion or Scythe? Aren't a rogue or bard dip (unknown about Loremaster, I keep re-reading it and forgetting like it's the Bermuda triangle of my brain for some reason)... and if they are? They're often playing non-optimal builds.

This is a good distinction to be able to make and makes fights with new opponents significantly less random feeling in ways that encourage experience and build-knowledge: A major cornerstone of what brings a lot of people to 3rd edition D&D, Pathfinder, and NWN over other games with simpler and less customizable experiences.

The fact that some of these people put in sometimes 20 to 40 times the gold and time playing on the server to get their equipment and are only a fraction better off for it mechanically in the damage department in limited circumstances (most of the threat-range is lost in AC for most attacks against a majority of classes; and those classes it affect have other highly useful mechanical tools such as rogue grenades) is something that should not be lost sight of: There is a balance to the existing status quo.. though additional crafted 2-handed weapons would be really cool.

[Ork]

Change of crit range could have unanticipated impacts that will have to be rebalanced. I don't think standardizing crit range is the right choice. Consider how important crits are that there is already changes occurring for palemasters for them to have reduced crit immunity. By nerfing 18-20x2 or 20x4 weapons, we lose a lot of the noticeable counters to low AC builds. Barbarian summer is nigh.

[dominantdrowess]

^ Exactly this. Ork Smart-Boys.

[Hazard]

Memery aside, as long as these changes come with relevels and proper balancing it's all cool.
I've played a disgusting amount of scim WMs over the years, and I really don't WANT to. It's just so optimal that I feel like I have to.
If I pick anything else it feels like I am never getting crits in comparison.

I am so sick of the appearance of a scimitar. I'd rather wield any other weapon, but that 18-20 is just too George Clooney.

But what if instead of NERFING everything to make it all suck equally, we buffed things to bring it up to scim/falch/rapier equivalency?
I feel like that would have much less server-wide balance implications, seeing as the optimal standard is already set and a longtime norm and has been balanced around.

[dominantdrowess]

It's the exact same problem though. Racial Weapons then dumpstering the runes and m.damask~ Frankly, I am considering creating a side-arm for myself, but.. I'm going to make a rapier, so that if I ever sell it, or roll I can give somebody a big weapon. lol. And it's compatible with more classes, and finessable. I don't understand why people make Scimitars over Rapiers. Isn't piercing damage superior too, against some classes due to tower-shield stats not being on all classes?

[Hazard]

It's the exact same problem though. Racial Weapons then dumpstering the runes and m.damask~ Frankly, I am considering creating a side-arm for myself, but.. I'm going to make a rapier, so that if I ever sell it, or roll I can give somebody a big weapon. lol. And it's compatible with more classes, and finessable. I don't understand why people make Scimitars over Rapiers. Isn't piercing damage superior too, against some classes due to tower-shield stats not being on all classes?

I've always wondered why too.
Maybe someone more knowledgeable can give the answer, but I always assumed that out of the two scimmy just looks a lot more bad Snuggybear.

[Kenji]

I changed my mind, let's make everything either 18-20 x2 or 19-20 x3