Reminder on Politically Charged language could be better

[Wings of Peace]

I was going through some of the DM Reminders and I feel like the reminder about politically charged language would benefit from some sort of elaboration or reformatting. The main reason being that it's unintuitive that Racism (the homophone being a key part of political dynamics in the setting) is considered 'charged' even though the server makes a conscious decision to heavily encourage the 3.x drow paradigm which was deviated from in 5e for being literally racist. On the other hand, 'bigotry' a term that only occasionally shows up in setting material is considered 'not charged' even though it's a /very/ common concern of contemporary groups such as the lgbt community. It would at least be beneficial imo if the list was presented in a fashion that simply listed the discouraged topics without giving any counter examples.

[Void]

I was going through some of the DM Reminders and I feel like the reminder about politically charged language would benefit from some sort of elaboration or reformatting. The main reason being that it's unintuitive that Racism (the homophone being a key part of political dynamics in the setting) is considered 'charged' even though the server makes a conscious decision to heavily encourage the 3.x drow paradigm which was deviated from in 5e for being literally racist. On the other hand, 'bigotry' a term that only occasionally shows up in setting material is considered 'not charged' even though it's a /very/ common concern of contemporary groups such as the lgbt community. It would at least be beneficial imo if the list was presented in a fashion that simply listed the discouraged topics without giving any counter examples.

When I saw this reminder, I was under impression that the reminder is there, because in forgotten realms such terms simply -would not exist. FR maps to real life medieval period, which ends at 1450. All the listed concepts are very modern.

[Drowboy]

It was because a few tieflings were literally calling people "racists" in-game about being treated like demon-people.

Just literally don't do that. Maybe this one should be locked before it gets extremely buckwild in here

[Hazard]

The problem isn't the "racism" .. There's "racism" in 5th ed too, and that's fine.. because there's actual, tangible differences between races in this game, even in 5th ed. Some races are just evil. Some cultures are just evil.

The problem was terms like "racism" and "communism" and all that don't belong in this setting. That's what I got from the announcement at least. It's not setting appropriate for someone to be like "that's racist!" in faerun, when you don't trust a drow/tiefling or something. No one would say that.

[Wenchslayer]

I think it's easy to forget in the moment what type of language we are using, especially if we are typing words quickly as players. I've certainly been guilty.

That said, I've really appreciated Arelith's commitment to some matter of setting consistency, having been on servers that really lack that commitment.

I've always assumed Arelith's language would be more like Shakespeare's English and that's generally how I tried to approach it with my characters, since the closest inspiration for Arelith on the wiki was listed as the renaissance period. (We have the invention of the Handgonne, Bombard, articulated platemail in arelith, as well as basic forms of steam power, glass, and other heavy industry)

It's also to be fair, quite daunting to speak in older English then that since it starts to plainly diverge heavily from our actual modern language. (Though I've seen some players pull it off)

Words like 'Cad', 'Rake' 'Sirrah, Varlet, rabble-rouser, Villian' and other forms of address being in use make sense. That said, I can't say if the average player has read that sort of material, and having a formal English education shouldn't be a prerequsite to RP for our community as it favors many English as a second language players.

It's also a serious amount of effort for me personally to write like this continually rather then speak as I do in my actual life.
Ultimately, the purpose for me doing so is to create a common ground of interaction with other players. Which is why I have a drow that talks like a 16th century sailor.

However, most of the tropes I use are more Hollywood then actual reality if we are being honest with ourselves. Writing tropes are important in the sense that they do give players a common ground to work with if they've never roleplayed with each other to begin with.

Politically charged terms like 'Racist' 'Conservative' or 'Liberal' doesn't really fit the Forgotten Realm's ethos in the sense that these kind of drag players away from what the core fantasy of the setting should be. Which is effectively a European inspired renaissance period with lots of tusks and pointy eared gits, as was typical of 1980s fantasy writing. (I admit aside as a writer, I've been enjoying the fact that the genre has expanded beyond this into seeking other cultures as representation. Take the 'Witcher' and their Slavic Mythology for example, or Sanderson's clear asiatic inspiration he's been pulling on.)

Moreover, in Forgotten Realm's setting, Bigotry or Racism as we conceive of it is not an entirely negative behavior. There are entire races and tribes of creatures in the Forgotten Realms that are effectively blights on Toril and deserve to be eradicated. And someone coming from Toril would have grown up from a very young age schooled in just how dangerous some of these creatures are. So many of our modern political terms would just make no sense to people from this world.

Fear of difference is often a result of fear of being harmed, and the average uneducated farmer in Arelith would have great reason to fear orcs, goblins, drow, and demon tailed red-skinned half-humans. Since more often then not, these are the direct sources of their misery. While adventurers could seek to work above these prejudices, it's sort of acknowledged that they exist for a good reason. As a player, I find it rewarding that such subraces come with these story-hooks attached, rather then having them ignored.

[Ebonstar]

its actually quite easy and you dont need to read about it to make it work

Watch Knights Tale and everyone can see simple terms to express the same modern terms or any decent period movie.

Alot of people dont realize is most modern language is condensed from prior terms, but not using modern ideas just takes an extra second or two.

[fading]

I guess some clarification would be in order for most folk, since I don't think the problem is the politically charged nature of the language, but rather the contemporary/modern nature of it. Tyrant is very much a politically charged term, but quite fine, while fascist not so much. Bigot comes from the 16th century, I believe, while racist is much newer.

I do believe your theoretical tiefling character has all the right to call those who ostracize them "bigots," regardless of whether those prejudices are well-founded or not. Said prejudices might certainly not be true from your character's point of view, and that's important to note.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I bounced off the server for awhile, a few years back, because my highly-skeptical wizard was hyper-critical of the presence of tieflings in positions of power (for no other reason than that they were horned, tailed demonbloods), and was promptly called a "bigot" by one of them.

I think there are some high-level things to consider,

1. Arelith is not "medieval" (nor is the Forgotten Realms).
2. Arelithians, in particular, display many modern tendencies. Let's not try to avoid this, because it's inevitable. Rather, let's just try to temper it.
3. However, Arelith and the Forgotten Realms would never have developed the word "fascism." Let's just believe in that and move on.
4. Forgotten Realms (and D&D) has a huge blindspot around racism, discrimination, and SV. (there's been implicit language since AD&D that half-orcs, and even half-elves, are the byproduct of sexual violence). Drow are black-skinned elves, and they're the bad ones, same with duergar, etc. We don't want to get into this, because it's just beyond our power to change.

Tieflings, by the nature of the setting, are met with mistrust and suspiscion. Don't boil this down to the individual. This is the setting. The setting, inherently, is prejudicial towards tieflings. Just like drow, duergar, etc.

That's really what the DM Message should be about. Players/characters shouldn't be called out for falling in line with the setting. Rather, tieflings who turn around and cry "bigot" are playing in a sandbox that doesn't exist.

[Security_Blanket]

This is a fantasy setting with magic and monsters, this is not 5E, racism does and very much should exist in this setting. This isn't a fairytale world where everything is sunshine and rainbows, there's also storm clouds and all manner of nasty things waiting in the dark. Let's not bring real world ideals into this setting, please.

[Morgy]

This is a fantasy setting with magic and monsters, this is not 5E, racism does and very much should exist in this setting. This isn't a fairytale world where everything is sunshine and rainbows, there's also storm clouds and all manner of nasty things waiting in the dark. Let's not bring real world ideals into this setting, please.

Agreed.

[Arienette]

I am of the opinion that the word “racism” should not exist in the setting.

The word racism exists in the real world due to the social construction of “race”.

In the game setting, race is not a social construction. It’s an obvious and real thing, describing the various literal and real races of humanoids.

Various races will obviously have attitudes and opinions of other races, some good and some bad. These attitudes and opinions are natural and appropriate, and we do not need a word to describe them. Much less do we need to use the word “racism” to describe it.

If character A says “dwarves are greedy” and character B says “that’s racist”, I’d say that’s a wholly inappropriate injection of IRL attitudes into IC behavior.

Dwarves are generally considered to be greedy by the standards of some other races, and expressing that attitude does not require any sort of “ism” label. If character B has a problem with the statement, they can say “not all dwarves are as greedy as folks say, give them a chance.”

The word racism has no place is that sort of an exchange, and I can’t think of any situation where it is appropriate IMO.

[Morgy]

I am of the opinion that the word “racism” should not exist in the setting.

The word racism exists in the real world due to the social construction of “race”.

In the game setting, race is not a social construction. It’s an obvious and real thing, describing the various literal and real races of humanoids.

Various races will obviously have attitudes and opinions of other races, some good and some bad. These attitudes and opinions are natural and appropriate, and we do not need a word to describe them. Much less do we need to use the word “racism” to describe it.

If character A says “dwarves are greedy” and character B says “that’s racist”, I’d say that’s a wholly inappropriate injection of IRL attitudes into IC behavior.

Dwarves are generally considered to be greedy by the standards of some other races, and expressing that attitude does not require any sort of “ism” label. If character B has a problem with the statement, they can say “not all dwarves are as greedy as folks say, give them a chance.”

The word racism has no place is that sort of an exchange, and I can’t think of any situation where it is appropriate IMO.

Slavery is also a real world issue, but we have this as a whole avenue of RP with mechanical tools for it.

I think as we are not using ‘real world’ racist terms and behaviours, this is rather an overreaction.

[Duchess Says]

Just my opinion but I think we should embrace that our characters are flawed beings who may be lawful and good but are also products of their environment with all the prejudices that brings. Being enlightened about the potential of all creatures to be good, even evil ones is fine but it shouldn't be the default and maybe that's something for your character to work towards instead of entering the game chastising others for prejudice like you're a newly enlightened college freshman.

Think of it more like exploring the nature of prejudice in a setting where it's rampant. Imagine watching a movie set in early 20th century NYC or the American South, it would just feel wrong if every single character had 2020s ideals about racism and sexism, those are times of rampant racism. It doesn't mean you're a bad person if your character has views we'd consider outdated now and in fact it probably adds to their complexity and authenticity. At the very least consider starting with the ingrained prejudices their culture might have and then let their experiences IG temper that as they grow... or potentially, if experiences dictate, make the prejudices go even deeper.

So I'd tend to agree that the word "racism" doesn't belong and if it did, it might be the academic study of races not a condemnation of a closed mind! But the most egregious thing you can do is make jokey in-game references to "Black Lives Matter", "Wokeness", "Cancel Culture" and other current events, phrases and movements. Because it's just bad taste, has no place here and is never as funny as you think it is.

[Arienette]

I am of the opinion that the word “racism” should not exist in the setting.

The word racism exists in the real world due to the social construction of “race”.

In the game setting, race is not a social construction. It’s an obvious and real thing, describing the various literal and real races of humanoids.

Various races will obviously have attitudes and opinions of other races, some good and some bad. These attitudes and opinions are natural and appropriate, and we do not need a word to describe them. Much less do we need to use the word “racism” to describe it.

If character A says “dwarves are greedy” and character B says “that’s racist”, I’d say that’s a wholly inappropriate injection of IRL attitudes into IC behavior.

Dwarves are generally considered to be greedy by the standards of some other races, and expressing that attitude does not require any sort of “ism” label. If character B has a problem with the statement, they can say “not all dwarves are as greedy as folks say, give them a chance.”

The word racism has no place is that sort of an exchange, and I can’t think of any situation where it is appropriate IMO.

Slavery is also a real world issue, but we have this as a whole avenue of RP with mechanical tools for it.

I think as we are not using ‘real world’ racist terms and behaviours, this is rather an overreaction.

I’m not saying saying that concepts that are a real world issue should not be allowed in game.

Slavery exists in the real world and in Arelith. So do trees, swords, and thousands of other things.

I like the comparison someone made to fascism. Fascism is a modern, human, real-world concept and that word should have no place in game.

Racism is a human real-world concept that exists to describe an artificial social construction. There are no objective “races” of human beings. It’s made up. The word serves a purpose to describe subjective ideas held by real-world human beings.

Race in FR is a completely different thing. It is real and objective, and more akin to “species” than how we use the term “race” IRL. There are real, obvious, and objective differences between humanoid races. The humanoid races will naturally have attitudes about each other. Racism is a misnomer for these attitudes in-game.

To me it’s like someone calling in-game slavery “human trafficking” or calling an in-game group’s propensity for pooling resources “Bolshevism” or saying a hyperactive character “has ADD” or something.

It just stands out to me as an inappropriate OOC insertion into the setting.

[The GrumpyCat]

I bounced off the server for awhile, a few years back, because my highly-skeptical wizard was hyper-critical of the presence of tieflings in positions of power (for no other reason than that they were horned, tailed demonbloods), and was promptly called a "bigot" by one of them.

I think there are some high-level things to consider,

1. Arelith is not "medieval" (nor is the Forgotten Realms).
2. Arelithians, in particular, display many modern tendencies. Let's not try to avoid this, because it's inevitable. Rather, let's just try to temper it.
3. However, Arelith and the Forgotten Realms would never have developed the word "fascism." Let's just believe in that and move on.
4. Forgotten Realms (and D&D) has a huge blindspot around racism, discrimination, and SV. (there's been implicit language since AD&D that half-orcs, and even half-elves, are the byproduct of sexual violence). Drow are black-skinned elves, and they're the bad ones, same with duergar, etc. We don't want to get into this, because it's just beyond our power to change.

Tieflings, by the nature of the setting, are met with mistrust and suspiscion. Don't boil this down to the individual. This is the setting. The setting, inherently, is prejudicial towards tieflings. Just like drow, duergar, etc.

That's really what the DM Message should be about. Players/characters shouldn't be called out for falling in line with the setting. Rather, tieflings who turn around and cry "bigot" are playing in a sandbox that doesn't exist.

I think this pretty much lays out the reasons why we don't like the word 'Racist/ism' being thrown around.

It's a very charged word. I don't know about you guys, but if someone called me a Racist IRL I'd be devistated.

IRL - the quality of someones morality is in no way dicated by the colour of their skin. I think we can all get on board with that, right?

In Forgotten Realsms, however- it is. Drow are pretty much innatly evil, for example.(1)

We ask our players to rp the fact that monster races are, by their nature, evil pretty much all the time. If a surfacer meets a gnoll it's not a case of 'Oh it's a gnoll. I wonder what he's like? I'd best go say hello!' It's a case of 'OH GODS IT'S A GNOLL HE'S GOING TO EAT MY FACE!'

And yes, of course, their our outlayers, but the above remains basically true and we expect folk to rp with that in mind.

The problem comes that some people don't rp this, and break setting. At which point you get:

'You attacked that Gnoll? YOU RACIST!'

Using a very charged, very hurtful word, in a technically true way, but one that none the less isn't fitting for the setting. One may as well say 'What? You didn't swim naked with starving great white sharks whilst on your period? YOU RACIST!'

Racism - at least in terms of 'speciesism' (which is probably a better phrase) doesn't exist - not due to time period but because in FR races really do have some very solid constants. It's not 'racist' to believe all Dwarves are dour, or all elves are flighty. The vast majority simply /are/.

I suppose it's an apt word for cases where it's human vs human bigotry (A mullihorandi human sneering in the direction of a Thayan) but even here I'd be... a little wary of it? Because you're kinda brushing close on Real Life subjects and that is something that people come here to escape.

(1) Why yes, yes this is highly problematic. But it's the setting we're working with and, especially given it's a multiplayer setting without one single dm able to constantly oversee affairs - we're kinda stuck with it. Sucks a bit but there you go.

[Arienette]

I bounced off the server for awhile, a few years back, because my highly-skeptical wizard was hyper-critical of the presence of tieflings in positions of power (for no other reason than that they were horned, tailed demonbloods), and was promptly called a "bigot" by one of them.

I think there are some high-level things to consider,

1. Arelith is not "medieval" (nor is the Forgotten Realms).
2. Arelithians, in particular, display many modern tendencies. Let's not try to avoid this, because it's inevitable. Rather, let's just try to temper it.
3. However, Arelith and the Forgotten Realms would never have developed the word "fascism." Let's just believe in that and move on.
4. Forgotten Realms (and D&D) has a huge blindspot around racism, discrimination, and SV. (there's been implicit language since AD&D that half-orcs, and even half-elves, are the byproduct of sexual violence). Drow are black-skinned elves, and they're the bad ones, same with duergar, etc. We don't want to get into this, because it's just beyond our power to change.

Tieflings, by the nature of the setting, are met with mistrust and suspiscion. Don't boil this down to the individual. This is the setting. The setting, inherently, is prejudicial towards tieflings. Just like drow, duergar, etc.

That's really what the DM Message should be about. Players/characters shouldn't be called out for falling in line with the setting. Rather, tieflings who turn around and cry "bigot" are playing in a sandbox that doesn't exist.

I think this pretty much lays out the reasons why we don't like the word 'Racist/ism' being thrown around.

It's a very charged word. I don't know about you guys, but if someone called me a Racist IRL I'd be devistated.

IRL - the quality of someones morality is in no way dicated by the colour of their skin. I think we can all get on board with that, right?

In Forgotten Realsms, however- it is. Drow are pretty much innatly evil, for example.(1)

We ask our players to rp the fact that monster races are, by their nature, evil pretty much all the time. If a surfacer meets a gnoll it's not a case of 'Oh it's a gnoll. I wonder what he's like? I'd best go say hello!' It's a case of 'OH GODS IT'S A GNOLL HE'S GOING TO EAT MY FACE!'

And yes, of course, their our outlayers, but the above remains basically true and we expect folk to rp with that in mind.

The problem comes that some people don't rp this, and break setting. At which point you get:

'You attacked that Gnoll? YOU RACIST!'

Using a very charged, very hurtful word, in a technically true way, but one that none the less isn't fitting for the setting. One may as well say 'What? You didn't swim naked with starving great white sharks whilst on your period? YOU RACIST!'

Racism - at least in terms of 'speciesism' (which is probably a better phrase) doesn't exist - not due to time period but because in FR races really do have some very solid constants. It's not 'racist' to believe all Dwarves are dour, or all elves are flighty. The vast majority simply /are/.

I suppose it's an apt word for cases where it's human vs human bigotry (A mullihorandi human sneering in the direction of a Thayan) but even here I'd be... a little wary of it? Because you're kinda brushing close on Real Life subjects and that is something that people come here to escape.

(1) Why yes, yes this is highly problematic. But it's the setting we're working with and, especially given it's a multiplayer setting without one single dm able to constantly oversee affairs - we're kinda stuck with it. Sucks a bit but there you go.

Yep. This is essentially what I was trying to say, just better-expressed.

Racism is a nasty thing IRL because it is socially constructed hateful nonsense.

Racism should not be a term we use in a setting where different races of humanoids are actually very different in important ways.

[Void]

It's a very charged word. I don't know about you guys, but if someone called me a Racist IRL I'd be devistated.

The core issue, I think is that "racism" is a "charged" word in some cultures, in particularly in an american one. And there are people from multiple countries and cultures on the server.

So the word can OOC upset somebody from another culture, or could be used due to its meaning on purpose.

I think It is regretful that people these days put so much weight in specific labels, but I guess nothing can be done about that.

[-XXX-]

- 'You attacked that Gnoll? YOU RACIST!'

- 'RACIST?! The propper term would be "Drowlike" you inferior, mutt-loving, dirt-eating, inbred scum! Now crawl back to whatever maggot hole you crawled out of before my thumbs accidentally bury themselves so deep down your eye sockets that your eyeballs would drool out through your eardrums! Oloth plynn dos, iblith *spits on the ground and cracks the whip*'

[Hazard]

- 'You attacked that Gnoll? YOU RACIST!'

- 'RACIST?! The propper term would be "Drowlike" you inferior, mutt-loving, dirt-eating, inbred scum! Now crawl back to whatever maggot hole you crawled out of before my thumbs accidentally bury themselves so deep down your eye sockets that your eyeballs would drool out through your eardrums! Oloth plynn dos, iblith *spits on the ground and cracks the whip*'

+1

[MissEvelyn]

This is a fantasy setting with magic and monsters, this is not 5E, racism does and very much should exist in this setting. This isn't a fairytale world where everything is sunshine and rainbows, there's also storm clouds and all manner of nasty things waiting in the dark. Let's not bring real world ideals into this setting, please.

Agreed.

[fading]

It's a very charged word. I don't know about you guys, but if someone called me a Racist IRL I'd be devistated.

I think It is regretful that people these days put so much weight in specific labels, but I guess nothing can be done about that.

Kinda off-topic but this is such a weird thing to say. Throughout history we've put massive weight on different labels, whether that's "heretic" (something that could get you killed), "communist" (something that could get you killed), etc. Pretty sure we give labels less importance nowadays shrug

[Void]

It's a very charged word. I don't know about you guys, but if someone called me a Racist IRL I'd be devistated.

I think It is regretful that people these days put so much weight in specific labels, but I guess nothing can be done about that.

Kinda off-topic but this is such a weird thing to say. Throughout history we've put massive weight on different labels, whether that's "heretic" (something that could get you killed), "communist" (something that could get you killed), etc. Pretty sure we give labels less importance nowadays shrug

In my opinion, these days, people take a label, declare that being marked with that label makes you true pure evil that shouldn't be present in this world, and then use the label as a weapon, by slapping it onto anyone they want gone or silenced. And in the process of doing that the meaning of label is lost. That's why I believe it is regretful that they put so much importance into labels. It has became a manipulation tool. Perhaps it always has been a manipulation tool. A Party A proclaims that Party B is one of the "unholy" "ists", Party B is horrified, and tires to prove them wrong, and in doing so they end up doing what Party A wishes. Meanwhile when meaning of the label is reduced to black and white, a lot of information is lost.

From your examples "communist" does not have a negative connotation in many regions. Seeing it as a negative is specific to certain regions and cultures only. If you see "communist" == "bad", that's influence of your culture right here.

[fading]

I think It is regretful that people these days put so much weight in specific labels, but I guess nothing can be done about that.

Kinda off-topic but this is such a weird thing to say. Throughout history we've put massive weight on different labels, whether that's "heretic" (something that could get you killed), "communist" (something that could get you killed), etc. Pretty sure we give labels less importance nowadays shrug

In my opinion, these days, people take a label, declare that being marked with that label makes you true pure evil that shouldn't be present in this world, and then use the label as a weapon, by slapping it onto anyone they want gone or silenced. And in the process of doing that the meaning of label is lost. That's why I believe it is regretful that they put so much importance into labels. It has became a manipulation tool. Perhaps it always has been a manipulation tool. A Party A proclaims that Party B is one of the "unholy" "ists", Party B is horrified, and tires to prove them wrong, and in doing so they end up doing what Party A wishes. Meanwhile when meaning of the label is reduced to black and white, a lot of information is lost.

From your examples "communist" does not have a negative connotation in many regions. Seeing it as a negative is specific to certain regions and cultures only. If you see "communist" == "bad", that's influence of your culture right here.

I'm a bit confused because, once again, what you said describes all of history. Accusations of heresy were a tool by religious authorities to maintain their power, with the threat of murder always present (see catharism). Same for accusations of communism (see the indonesian mass killings of 1965). It's not that much different these days (except usually without the threat of death, depending on where you live). I'm just a bit confused, I suppose, my point was that this is nothing new and I don't really like it when people act like back in ye olden days people were different.

That said, usually there's precedent for labels.. and while there's nothing wrong with having a different religious understanding of scripture, or being a communist, being any kind of bigot is pretty bad. I don't want to devolve the thread into politics though, I'm sure it'd get locked in no time. Overall a bit confused by what your point is, like yes, this is a thing, but it's not new.

[Void]

I'm just a bit confused, I suppose, my point was that this is nothing new and I don't really like it when people act like back in ye olden days people were different.

New or not, it would be nice if it stopped.

As for "olden days", modern world has larger number of labels and it is easier than ever to gather people to gang up on an individual.

Nothing confusing, in my opinion.

And one more thing. Accusation of heresy were a big deal in medieval times. That's hundreds years ago. If the modern labels have the same strength, then one could think we're regressing. Because we should be moving away from this stuff, and not embracing it again.

[CNS]

It's not that you can't use labels. It's more stay away from labels that are relevant to the real world (fascist, racist) and not relevant to the forgotten realms setting.

Stuff that is relevant (tyrant, infidel, animator) go hog wild with.

Both from a setting integrity point of view and having some respect for each other as actual humans playing a game behind a screen point of view.