Reworks

[Complex]

Hello!

I am glad Paladin got some attention. However, why is it that certain builds/classes get grandfathered while others are not?

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- Mechanical Changes -
--==================--
+Divine Shield:
If a character has epic dodge, both duration and AC bonus are halved

Spellcasting changed to CHA-based. Now spontaneous cast.
Unfortunately we cannot offer full remakes at this point, so existing characters that started as Paladins will instead gain a permanent +1 dodge AC bonus as a compensation for their now redundant 11 Wisdom.

I recall that when Paragon was nerfed, a couple of people got their builds grandfathered. Then again, with the Warlock remake, I do not recall any sort of compensation. Especially not one as big as this one. 1 AC for 11 Wisdom, even if it is dodge, is a pretty solid trade-off.

I bring the Paragon/Warlock example because it is similar to what happened here, but with the compensation "status" reversed. Paragon got its core mechanics nerfed, but builds were grandfathered. Warlocks got reworked, and no compensation took place. On the other hand, Paladin got reworked and was compensated for its previous stat block. EDodge + Divine shield got nerfed, and nothing was given in exchange.

It would be cool if we could have some insight as to why this happens. I really appreciate reworks and class changes, but the uncertainty of "what if they change this?" can be hard to navigate. Thank you!

[LIAR LIAR]

The divine shield "nerf," not necessarily change, to divine dex characters is not relevant.

If we didn't have free access to -relevel, all warlocks would have gotten it. Additionally, all old warlock builds work. In-fact, EDR 3 warlock is still king. No compensation even deserving here.

Paladins have had the casting stat they built upon from character creation menu. In the case of Arelith paladin, you only needed 11 wisdom which isn't much of a stretch, but it's something pretty much equivalent to "could have been 2 dex for 1 ac and 1 reflex save."

[Complex]

The divine shield "nerf," not necessarily change, to divine dex characters is not relevant.

How is it not relevant? It was a core class mechanic that got changed. It was just like the Paragon nerfs that got the old versions of the build grandfathered.

If we didn't have free access to -relevel, all warlocks would have gotten it. Additionally, all old warlock builds work. In-fact, EDR 3 warlock is still king. No compensation even deserving here.

I doubt Warlock has been played to an extent that matters enough for anyone to claim 'EDR 3 Warlock is still king'. Or, at least, I am way more confident in the following statement being true: 11 Wisdom Paladins would've been okay without compensation too.

Paladins have had the casting stat they built upon from character creation menu. In the case of Arelith paladin, you only needed 11 wisdom which isn't much of a stretch, but it's something pretty much equivalent to "could have been 2 dex for 1 ac and 1 reflex save."

Yes. It is a solid trade-off, as I have stated before.

So why do some classes get compensation/grandfatherings while others do not?

[Party in the forest at midnight]

A number of my friends have been hit hard by class functionality changes this year that have made their stat spread extremely difficult to work with. It's been explained to me why a system to retake level 1 can't exist, but would it be possible for there to be a remake system offered that transfers everything from an existing character to a new character made with the same name after a reset? It would be token based so people couldn't abuse it and "follow the meta" every time they don't like their build. So if a class feature is fundamentally changed, people could remake if they're impacted badly enough.

Property, gold, and equipment are big investments to lose on. Property in particular can disrupt guilds RPing someplace. With the new property bidding system, there's been a massive increase in property turnover (I really like the system, it's had a giant positive influence on the server). Is it an issue if people can maintain property on a remake?

[Drowboy]

A number of my friends have been hit hard by class functionality changes this year that have made their stat spread extremely difficult to work with. It's been explained to me why a system to retake level 1 can't exist, but would it be possible for there to be a remake system offered that transfers everything from an existing character to a new character made with the same name after a reset? It would be token based so people couldn't abuse it and "follow the meta" every time they don't like their build. So if a class feature is fundamentally changed, people could remake if they're impacted badly enough.

Property, gold, and equipment are big investments to lose on. Property in particular can disrupt guilds RPing someplace. With the new property bidding system, there's been a massive increase in property turnover (I really like the system, it's had a giant positive influence on the server). Is it an issue if people can maintain property on a remake?

I'm relatively certain Risenholm does this (you make a new character with the same name and it transfers) but maybe there's logistical issues with a larger/complex-er server?

[Void]

A number of my friends have been hit hard by class functionality changes this year that have made their stat spread extremely difficult to work with. It's been explained to me why a system to retake level 1 can't exist, but would it be possible for there to be a remake system offered that transfers everything from an existing character to a new character made with the same name after a reset? It would be token based so people couldn't abuse it and "follow the meta" every time they don't like their build. So if a class feature is fundamentally changed, people could remake if they're impacted badly enough.

Property, gold, and equipment are big investments to lose on. Property in particular can disrupt guilds RPing someplace. With the new property bidding system, there's been a massive increase in property turnover (I really like the system, it's had a giant positive influence on the server). Is it an issue if people can maintain property on a remake?

Such system has been done in many other places, but the thing is, it has to be written by someone and approved by the server owners.

Normally, when such thing is available, people use it to dramatically alter their character given the opportunity. As in, rearrange stats, change to different base class, alignment, and so on.

I always treated arelith as "all build decisions are final", and "there's no -relevel". Though frequent mechanical changes are at odds with this philosophy.

[LIAR LIAR]

So why do some classes get compensation/grandfatherings while others do not?

I could thoroughly outline this, but it is a case by case basis. Builds that lost monk ac for non wisdom using classes is the only exception I can however come up with. They do end up with some abberant wisdom of between 14 and 16 in many cases that has been left behind, but I believe the staff has good evidence to accept quite a few other changes as not hurting a build from level 1, but instead pulling back the reigns on ac, ab, or damage bounding.

I can name spellsword monk, hexblade monk (I think this only lost +2 ab and flurry of blows), and bg monk as having been hurt without proper recourse or compensation. If there was...warlock/monk/blackguard, so be it, that was hurt too.

Divine dex was too strong, it's fine as is. Uptime is near invulnerability to a 2hand barb wm when 2hand was +2 ab with proper healing supplies and the cruelty of corner sneaking when I haste pot.

All warlock builds should be working no matter what insane thing was made, and to an even better extent now is the point you're avoiding. The warlock changes have been a grand net positive and full -relevel access all three months and ten days since the change. Even divine warlocks had options still. If you wanted shield, you exchanged an epic pact for a neat tool of your choosing for your kit or bigger blast damage and ab. This is exclusively a net gain for divine dip warlocks. They're getting things they didn't before.

13 str for power attack to get div shield/might will always be a thing.

[Tarkus the dog]

I'm also curious as to why my 15 DEX dual wielder didn't get any compensation.

[Complex]

So why do some classes get compensation/grandfatherings while others do not?

I could thoroughly outline this, but it is a case by case basis. Builds that lost monk ac for non wisdom using classes is the only exception I can however come up with. They do end up with some abberant wisdom of between 14 and 16 in many cases that has been left behind, but I believe the staff has good evidence to accept quite a few other changes as not hurting a build from level 1, but instead pulling back the reigns on ac, ab, or damage bounding.

I can name spellsword monk, hexblade monk, and bg monk as having been hurt without proper recourse or compensation. If there was...warlock/monk/blackguard, so be it, that was hurt too.

Divine dex was too strong, it's fine as is. Uptime is near invulnerability to a 2hand barb wm when 2hand was +2 ab with proper healing supplies and the cruelty of corner sneaking when I haste pot.

All warlock builds should be working no matter what insane thing was made, and to an even better extent now is the point you're avoiding. The warlock changes have been a grand net positive and full -relevel access all three months and ten days since the change. Even divine warlocks had options still. If you wanted shield, you exchanged an epic pact for a neat tool of your choosing for your kit or bigger blast damage and ab. This is exclusively a net gain for divine dip warlocks. They're getting things they didn't before.

13 str for power attack to get div shield/might will always be a thing.

Halving all of your investment in both AC and duration makes Div Dex almost pointless. It works, but it is clunky and unrewarding.

I never said reworks were bad. I am glad they happen. My question still is why do some classes get compensation while others do not. I do not really care to debate the state of Div Dex, though, so I'd really appreciate it if you were thorough about this case-by-case basis you mention. Maybe you are seeing something I am not.

[Ork]

I don't think there seems to be any guiding principle here. I bet compensation aligns with a dev feeling bad for making all builds before it obsolete.

It would be nice to have a system where you could retool everything and keep everything once per character. That way you can play your character to your desired limit without worrying about nerfs/changes but only be able to completely revamp once in that character's lifetime.

It would be nice, but I think it is equally okay to let go of a character and incentivize starting fresh.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I like the idea of a token system, where if something is changed that would impact base stat lines, tokens for an enhanced remake could be offered. So it offers a way to help people impacted by changes, while also preventing abuse.

[garrbear758]

There's not really a specific guideline here because it's extremely case by case and mostly just dependent on feasibility.

Examples:
Paragon was grandfathered because the builds would literally be nonfunctional since they wouldnt be able to get div might / shield on a divine build after the nerf/rework. They were grandfathered because the alternative was breaking them.

Warlock was not grandfathered because you can use the exact same level 1 build. Warlock was changed significantly, but there was no reason to grandfather them when it didn't break any builds.

Div dex was not grandfathered because the build still exists and works, albeit in a weaker state. That was a nerf not a rework.

Paladin was given 1 ac for current paladins because it was possible to do and would put them slightly more in line with paladins going forward who don't need wisdom.

Grandfathering is typically a last resort that we try to only use if the alternative is full level 0 rebuilds, which I would not expect us to ever do again.

[Eyeliner]

Keeping your property, inventory and bank accounts may be too big of an ask but it would be nice in case of really drastic class changes to be able to remake and get your level back through the support ticket system.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I still don't get why grandfathering is a thing. I realize it's intended to be understanding toward a player invested in a character with a certain build that can't be fixed by a rebuild, but it really amounts to is putting their personal needs over the balance health of the server. Which would be fine I guess if "server balance, from pvp to pve" were not one of the recent server Mantras.

I don't bring this up to be accusatory toward anyone, as I truly do believe this is the best intentions gone wrong, just pointing out the discrepancy in messaging when you have harpers that get a bunch of free feats/ability points at the start over every other harper paragon, infacasting sorcerers/7 attack builds, and 3 gifts of stats still running about here and there but tell others they have to live with the changes that may have adversely affected their character.

Maybe it's time to give all the grandfathered a six month notice or something?

[Complex]

There's not really a specific guideline here because it's extremely case by case and mostly just dependent on feasibility.

Examples:
Div dex was not grandfathered because the build still exists and works, albeit in a weaker state. That was a nerf not a rework.

Paladin was given 1 ac for current paladins because it was possible to do and would put them slightly more in line with paladins going forward who don't need charisma.

The same argument that is used here for Div Dex could be used for 11 Wisdom Paladins. They would exist and work, albeit in a weaker state. I understand how the perspective of it being a rework as opposed to a nerf can affect the decision-making behind it, but it could be something to take into account for the future.

Guidelines could help with the feeling of unease there seems to be when it comes to mechanics. Maybe some of the systems being suggested would be useful too. In any case, thank you for the explanation!

[Kalopsia]

I was somewhat surprised about this thread as it feels like a gesture of goodwill is what caused it. Yes, the bonus AC was not essential, but without it we'd instead be commenting in a thread titled "Why do updates keep breaking old characters?" or "Old Paladins invalidated by new updates" now.

I generally try to avoid breaking characters with my content updates. If two lines of code can be the difference between "dang, paladins got a big update and the one I've just leveled to 30 is now gimped" and "yay, my paladin is so much more flavorful now!" I'm absolutely going to aim for the option that doesn't cause bad feelings but rather lets people enjoy the new features.

[Complex]

I was somewhat surprised about this thread as it feels like a gesture of goodwill is what caused it. Yes, the bonus AC was not essential, but without it we'd instead be commenting in a thread titled "Why do updates keep breaking old characters?" or "Old Paladins invalidated by new updates" now.

The Paladin rework seems promising. I am not bashing your work, and I appreciate these gestures. I am sorry if I presented my thoughts in a negative light. Again, I appreciate and even encourage these goodwill gestures, hoping that we continue to see them. They could be the answer to help the community feel better when it comes to mechanical changes.

Thank you for your answer, and I hope that this reply is more constructive than the original post!

[Drowboy]

Is it not stopped by def essence or something? Base cha mod so you're looking at 3-5 in general, right? Well within def range. Even if you don't have a defensive essence, and are hitting them ten times a round, that's less than swinging into an acid sheathe once or twice, right? Seems more pve-y.

[Zavandar]

If your response to the divine shield change is "My build should never have had charisma," then kindly stop and back the snugglybear up and delete because clearly you didn't make a character based on the roleplay related to the classes.

this is weirdly hostile and mean and presumptuous please chill out

[Wishes]

...

You need to work on your tone, sir. It's a little condescending.

Thank you.

Have a nice day.

[DM Monkey]

Everyone chill. Let's all be friends.

Alright now... roll your characters and move on with new stories.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

That dismissiveness sort of is discouraging. It's extremely exhausting seeing a lot of changes mess up character base stat lines. In the last thread only a few examples were listed, it didn't even include what happened to protection clerics who were heavy cha. One of my friends did that, she thought it sounded fun for her concept. As far as I can tell it's a meme build that did 1 thing and has existed for a very long time, and then suddenly it's gone. While I like a lot of the new content, I also don't want to make a character only for them to suddenly be non-viable. And at this point I have no idea what is safe anymore. Everything is being touched.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

[Insightful stuff here]
I always treated arelith as "all build decisions are final", and "there's no -relevel". Though frequent mechanical changes are at odds with this philosophy.

100% this, on both halves; with that said, every time my things have changed so far there's been a relevel waiting in the wings for me - I still have a vault full of characters last played before "skillmageddon" and I consider myself fortunate to know that when I come back I don't have to delete everything and restart from scratch.

I don't mind the level-up process, but I'm not sitting on any awards and I kinda do hate levels 1-6, and not just on spellcasters. I basically hate the entire range of levels where one unlucky crit can send you to the fugue or you're sitting there doing your fights one swing per round at a time.

P.S. The forums need a vomit emote at the end of that last sentence.

[Zaphiel]

And at this point I have no idea what is safe anymore. Everything is being touched.

This issue seriously needs to be adressed. I am tired/bored of throwing my characters (as well as the time I spent) to trashbin because of these constant changes. (This whining is not against Paladin but as whole)

[Morgy]

You'd think someone just drop-kicked Paladins off a cliff.

It's not that big a deal.

Things change on this server, and always have. That's something that will long continue, I hope. Keep it fresh.