The Wizard Experience

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Ultimately I think everyone here enjoys the game, enjoys the D&D themed experience and Roleplay or we wouldn't be here. It's clear we all have our own idea of what core concepts we like and dislike, so it's unlikely everyone will be satisfied 100% of the time.

Yes.

On the topic of ASF I think the idea has merit and trying to get rid of it would be unwise. I don't have anything else to add to it.

Well, you yourself reopened a two months old thread pointing out that wizards do indeed seem to underperform ATM.

I suggested that the core problem is their lack of survivability. Unless you're going div dip sorcerer with auto still spell, the character's AC will cap somewhere in mid 40's which is on par with the AB of most melee builds (i.e. same result as having no AC whatsoever).

Multiple players expressed their preference of having the arcane spell list reworked, which has been identified as too much work repeatedly.

So what's left there? Going back to the AC problem. Of course waiving ASF is not the only option here. The most unsophisticated approach might have been a simple EMA buff, but then the div dip matter would need to be addressed as well, before we'd have AC80 sorcerers running around.

Spells will eventually slowly get worked on is my observation is better than a Jarring ASF fix.

I can reach 60+ ac in a shadow sorc div dip WITHOUT auto still. You only need base dex of 14 to max out the ac of plus 4 padded armor known as armor of immolation. Those with base dex 8 can use spell thief armor instead with dex buff.

ASF removal is not needed at all, in fact wearing armor for a mage isnt enough. Its divine shield plus armor that makes sorcs survive.

If you just want medium tier ac as a wizard, you can already do it without auto still. Just use armor of immolation/spelltheif armor + greensteel shield. Heck do fighter dip for armor prof and pick up edr 3 as a dwarf wizard if you want to have more survivability and use spellthief armor with greensteel shield + epic mage armor.

Base 10
Armor with dex mod 8
Epic mage armor 20
Dodge 2 from mage armor+ dodge boots
Shield 5
Tumble 3 (if shadow mage, 3 dip in SD xsn amke it 6)
Haste 4
52 ac with haste and cross class tumble
No auto still 3 required. Ema lasts forever and can't be dispelled.
5% arcane failure

You can do this with 8 dex and if you so desire can opt for fighter dip instead of ranger dip for edr 3 for the armor proficiency (ranger still gives medium and shield) and enjoy your biteback spells more. 8 dex human wizard can even start with the con required for EDR while still having high int.

Please put this ASF thing to rest, removing it is not needed at all.

*edit*

Some would.never risk 5% failure. Take parry skill and get 3 shield ac instead of 5.

[BHR55]

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Spells will eventually slowly get worked on is my observation is better than a Jarring ASF fix.
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This is likely true, Div Shield does make a difference here and there are options available to build for AC- typically better for Div sorc. Expertise being typless AC in Nwn vs a dodge bonus that would have you hit your cap sooner lets yet other classes go higher.
*edit- I am not recommending a sorc to take expertise. This statement was just an observation directed at the ability to combine div shield + expertise on a martial build for numbers that are not capped the same way as in PnP D&D.

ASF doesn't need to go away though maybe there will be more variety in the future for who can build for it and how, without letting one or another get theirs into the stratosphere. 60 AC is also less exciting these days against a variety of high AB kits, before TS comes into play.

For a wizard positioning, knowing how to kite, and when to get out of dodge and how are likely more important than outright AC. At least for myself changes to ASF is not a focus.

[Void]

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Epic mage armor 20
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Well, now I know which epic spell to pick next. Can think of a few fun combinations already. Though this will definitely delay ESFs...

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

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Epic mage armor 20
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Well, now I know which epic spell to pick next. Can think of a few fun combinations already. Though this will definitely delay ESFs...

If you are a shadow mage. Use 3 SD to bump 20 wizard into epics and still keeep your rsnger 3 disc dump bonus feat for cl 27 still.
23 wiz 4 sdn3 ranger on a shadow mage loses 1 pre epic fest but gains full tumble/uncanny dodge/evasion and little more skill points/hp

[Void]

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Epic mage armor 20
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Well, now I know which epic spell to pick next. Can think of a few fun combinations already. Though this will definitely delay ESFs...

If you are a shadow mage.

I'm not. There's plenty of room to pick the armor and all the ESFs I want, just that I'll get ESFs later. But thanks for the advice.

[-XXX-]

I think that malcolm might be slightly downplaying how hilariously bad having 5% ASF actually is - it introduces a 1 in a 20 probability of every spell misfiring with no effect while having the spell slot consumed.

The best shield one can use that confers no ASF penalty is a greensteel small shield which gives only +2 AC putting us back at AC 47
which is great for PvE - where it's also probably unnecessary, all while being virtually useless in PvP

[BHR55]

I think that malcolm might be slightly downplaying how hilariously bad having 5% ASF actually is - it introduces a 1 in a 20 probability of every spell misfiring with no effect while having the spell slot consumed.

The best shield one can use that confers no AC penalty is a greensteel small shield which confers only +2 AC putting us back at AC 47

48 ac as he is suggesting Parry for +3 vs the +2 of a small greensteel shield. This does mean you lose the off hand slot for stat club/dagger/maguffin.

47-48 ac might be enough as medium tier ac in PvE, but I agree it's likely not worth the investment in EMA compared to just... don't get hit. 52 AC isn't that much better, but good enough for PvE in a lot of areas. Personally I would not take the 5% ASF as the tradeoff. PvP wise getting to 60 or better is desirable.

In theory you could also swap the shield on and off between casts- at last that used to be the case. I am not a fan but to each their own.

Shadow mage does also suffer from a much lower CL on transmutation spells(-6), so your haste is only lvl 21 as are your animal spells. I am not sure if that is actually taken into account for being dispelled either, because these will all be blown away if that is the case. So the AC advantage might be offset by that risk.

[-XXX-]

He also assumes full +8 DEX modifier, which might be a little tricky to pull off in most mage builds without sacrificing something more essential.
But yes, point remains that PvP relevant AC values are around 60. EMA would have to be conferring +30 AC for that to be realistic without any div dip shenanigans.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I think that malcolm might be slightly downplaying how hilariously bad having 5% ASF actually is - it introduces a 1 in a 20 probability of every spell misfiring with no effect while having the spell slot consumed.

The best shield one can use that confers no AC penalty is a greensteel small shield which confers only +2 AC putting us back at AC 47

48 ac as he is suggesting Parry for +3 vs the +2 of a small greensteel shield. This does mean you lose the off hand slot for stat club/dagger/maguffin.

47-48 ac might be enough as medium tier ac in PvE, but I agree it's likely not worth the investment in EMA compared to just... don't get hit. 52 AC isn't that much better, but good enough for PvE in a lot of areas. Personally I would not take the 5% ASF as the tradeoff. PvP wise getting to 60 or better is desirable.

In theory you could also swap the shield on and off between casts- at last that used to be the case. I am not a fan but to each their own.

Shadow mage does also suffer from a much lower CL on transmutation spells(-6), so your haste is only lvl 21 as are your animal spells. I am not sure if that is actually taken into account for being dispelled either, because these will all be blown away if that is the case. So the AC advantage might be offset by that risk.

shadow mage only suffer Cl penalty on evocation spells, your haste will be 27. SD gives full cl to shadow mages.

The breakdown was just to show that autostill doesn't actauly help mages because the ac gained from EMA is actaully greater because we already have armor with no spell failure.

I wouldnt rely on ac, but it can reduce the amount of hits in a full round attack and give you more chances to repositition. It's an option, not a must have. Green steel shield is more than plus 2 last timei checked. my calculations are 50 ac when relying on parry ac instead of greensteel shield.

My calculations are off with the spellthief armor. id only be like 7 not 8. If you start with base dex 14 though (like a drow), you can pull off padded armor plus 4 and not even need epic mage armor (this is better for div dip that is short on epic feats).

The main point of my demonstration is that fullplate doesnt actaully give much more ac to mages. There is a bit of loss in the shield ac department, but there is a reason the divine casting classes do not have access to epic mage armor (even though a cleric would gain next to nothing from it.. a druid would gain quite a bit as would a monk dip shaman). The small gains of auto still can be gained in epic mage armor. You don't gain the di from said armors, but you also did not spend 3 feats and are not relying on a bunch of ac buffs that have shorter durations and dispellable (shadowshield/barkskin, shield). This is why deepgnome wizards with 3 monk dip were horribel broken before slight deep gnome and monk nerf. Between their untyped ac, extra wisdom bonuses, small size, and gainign tumble discipline, evasion, wisdom to ac, movement speed all in 3 lvls made for some really high non palemaster ac wizards (palemasters only cumulated more).

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

He also assumes full +8 DEX modifier, which might be a little tricky to pull off in most mage builds without sacrificing something more essential.
But yes, point remains that PvP relevant AC values are around 60. EMA would have to be conferring +30 AC for that to be realistic without any div dip shenanigans.

my argument was really about how removal of ASF is not needed as we have no ASF armor options and having it removed plus stacking with EMA, tumble, etc would cause some problems when you add the utility of DI as well with EDR 3 and bite back spells that your opponent wil need to constantly breach to touch you.

also my break down was assuming 8/10 base dex. spell thief armor doesnt need dex mod of 8. only the armor of immolation does, which by the way... your ac would be even higher than what i presented if you had dex mod 8. I was talking about starting with dex 8 when i broke down math for spellthief armor. I accidently gave 1 too much ac though on the armor. but if you want to min max it, be a small race for more ac.

I actauly consider auto still to be a bad investment currently even with div dips as you can just wear no ASF armor. If you were so desperate to squeeze extra ac, i would go EMA instead. True flames go for autostill because they can not cast EMA or have super long haste duration and can stand still in a fat stack of empowered flamewalls with a flameshield on to those attacking them as they stand there blasting away.

*EDIT*

like epic mage armor plus armor skin would be better than doing auto still 3 is what I am trying to say. don't take auto still 3 people unless your a true flame taking a div dip.

and as others have presentd you dont need ac to resist every attack, you mostly use repositioning, slow terrain like grease, mords, timestops, greater sanctuary, list goes on. Just having every attack not auto crit you when you still have over 400 hp helps you kit a bit more as you have extended haste and they do not.

[-XXX-]

I don't think that the current melee builds actually care about biteback spells. They have enough hp to absorb it and deal a lot more damage than they suffer with each hit (not that there'd be anything wrong with that, just saying)

Biteback spells used to be an interesting approach to punish monk APR builds back before their removal, but I don't believe that they are a sufficient deterrent to current shotgun builds that'd force them to waste tempo by bothering with breach wands.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I don't think that the current melee builds actually care about biteback spells. They have enough hp to absorb it and deal a lot more damage than they suffer with each hit (not that there'd be anything wrong with that, just saying)

Biteback spells used to be an interesting approach to punish monk APR builds back before their removal, but I don't believe that they are a sufficient deterrent that'd force current shotgun builds to waste tempo by bothering with breach wands.

they might care after they are timestop, mords, NEB (minus str taking aaway their ab and and damage), other negative effects etc.

Its not an auto win option, its a deterrant, like if you are kiting/spacing and they get a few hits off instead of all hits off and arnt dead yet, they still take that much more damage on themselves. If they stop to restoration themselves that give your more time to create more space and cast more negative effects. But yeah, if they knock you down, its kind of over even if you do survive the round, Mind you if a div dip sorceror gets knockeddown, they lose all their dodge ac and are also dead. Just less likely to be hit,, but if they are trying to reposition themselves and not stand there.. they kind of losing their divine shield ac there too.

[-XXX-]

How do you kite with a mage during PvP?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

How do you kite with a mage during PvP?

their speed boosts are shorter, or even irrelevant when going over stuff like greases or are encumbered from NEB. The moment they stop chasing you as their limited super ab ability wears off, you can throw another debuff/damage spell at them cause you got range.

Also mages built right should have over 400 hp. so having some ac so every attack doesnt auto crit in a full flurry very much will save your life.

*EDIT*
As will concealment

[-XXX-]

I just can't help but to think that you're giving the mage the benefit of much greater tempo advantage than they usually get during PvP encounters in your examples.
Characters move at the same movement rate which puts them at parity. Yes the mage can cast extendned haste which can break this parity once their enemy's haste potion wears off while their extended haste still remains active.

Instant action sprint messes with this dynamic. The melee can either instant sprint and get into the mage's face before they're even done casting their extend spell haste or chug a haste potion first and hit sprint once the haste wears off. This often results in a chase where the mage never even gets an opportunity to stop and cast their second spell without getting caught, much less all these clouds and greases that'd give the impression of them controlling the battlefield.


Kiting is a tactic that works during PvE where enemies are usually much slower than PCs and are piloted by AI. I wouldn't expect this to work against a PC that moves at the same movement rate as my character and is piloted by a human who's much smarter than the AI.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I just can't help but to think that you're giving the mage the benefit of much greater tempo advantage than they usually get during PvP encounters in your examples.
Characters move at the same movement rate which puts them at parity. Yes the mage can cast extendned haste which can break this parity once their enemy's haste potion wears off while their extended haste still remains active.

Instant action sprint messes with this dynamic. The melee can either instant sprint and get into the mage's face before they're even done casting their extend spell haste or chug a haste potion first and hit sprint once the haste wears off. This often results in a chase where the mage never even gets an opportunity to stop and cast their second spell without getting caught, much less all these clouds and greases that'd give the impression of them controlling the battlefield.


Kiting is a tactic that works during PvE where enemies are usually much slower than PCs and are piloted by AI. I wouldn't expect this to work against a PC that moves at the same movement rate as my character and is piloted by a human who's much smarter than the AI.

Yes, use extended haste, use it liberally and take advantage of timestop. If your caught already with no buffs then hope you get greater sanctuary done in time.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I just can't help but to think that you're giving the mage the benefit of much greater tempo advantage than they usually get during PvP encounters in your examples.
Characters move at the same movement rate which puts them at parity. Yes the mage can cast extendned haste which can break this parity once their enemy's haste potion wears off while their extended haste still remains active.

Instant action sprint messes with this dynamic. The melee can either instant sprint and get into the mage's face before they're even done casting their extend spell haste or chug a haste potion first and hit sprint once the haste wears off. This often results in a chase where the mage never even gets an opportunity to stop and cast their second spell without getting caught, much less all these clouds and greases that'd give the impression of them controlling the battlefield.


Kiting is a tactic that works during PvE where enemies are usually much slower than PCs and are piloted by AI. I wouldn't expect this to work against a PC that moves at the same movement rate as my character and is piloted by a human who's much smarter than the AI.

Yes, use extended haste, use it liberally and take advantage of timestop. If your caught already with no buffs then hope you get greater sanctuary done in time.

*edit*

If a mage lacks the control environment features via skill or toolkit then asf removsl.is not the answer 50+ ab will still rip through the ac values i provided earlier and the ac of an armored mage if you can't reposition/debuff/catch your breath properly. If you could facetank that then every build should have that kind of ab. The high end abs have certain weaknesses (or should) and they need to be exploited and giving mages free armor wont be the solution other than punishing weaker offense builds even further.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I have a tangential question related to a point that keeps getting brought up here- everyone knows I'm more in favor of traditional so I won't get into the ASF thing, but regarding Sprint...

Why is it a free action? Movement speeds are already measured in your maximum travel speed (I.e. you're hauling Snuggybear). A round is six seconds, a move action is generally considered to take "half" your round while your attack action takes your second "half." Or you don't move, and you combine all six seconds into a full attack flurry.

Moving your 30 feet (or 20 if you're small) per round and then attacking is the same thing as saying you ran 30 feet (ten yards) in three seconds.

Now, stepping away from our real life comparison, in D&D, normally, you can give up your attack action for the round, and move twice. This option is not present in NWN. Okay, I'm a traditionalist, let's give everyone the option to move a little faster...

But for no action cost? Why? Aren't haste potions a thing? Aren't potions of expeditious retreat a thing? Aren't items with expeditious retreat on them a thing? Sprint being a free action literally spits in the face of all other established action economy regarding movement (Blinding Speed isn't in the same realm, it's an epic feat <not free>, and it also no longer gives extra spellcasts <although if your dex is high enough to use blinding speed AND cast max level spells I'd argue you deserve it>), and in this regard I do agree whole-heartedly with XXX that there's an issue.

Sprinting should take part of your action every round it's active, and be a toggle, not give the same movement bonus as a spell/epic feat while preserving your attack actions. Casters should be able to use it to the same effect regardless of their stats. Otherwise you're arguing for realism in magical fantasy combat.

It's a neat idea, but one that I feel was executed in a vacuum on paper rather than examined in great depth with regards to the fact that movement abilities, even before this change, were already one of the strongest potential combat modifiers to have, much less for free. This is technically an opinion, but it's observably backed by numerous other modifications to movement, generally in the opposite direction here - see monk speed nerf, see haste not stacking with monk speed nerf, see expeditious retreat not stacking with monk speed, see blinding speed no longer doubling spell output, see the lack of items with permanent haste. Also see the fact that your party mage is considered a dumpster fire if he can't haste the party.

Sprint is cool in theory- mechanically, making it not cost an action tramples on a trend of otherwise established movement-balance.

Edited because I did just-woke-up-math and it was wrong.

[-XXX-]

If a mage lacks the control environment features via skill or toolkit then asf removsl.is not the answer 50+ ab will still rip through the ac values i provided earlier and the ac of an armored mage if you can't reposition/debuff/catch your breath properly. If you could facetank that then every build should have that kind of ab. The high end abs have certain weaknesses (or should) and they need to be exploited and giving mages free armor wont be the solution other than punishing weaker offense builds even further.

I don't see how player skill can make the character move any faster - sure, you can avoid getting get stuck on tiles and move more efficiently around terrain features, but that can only help if the opposing player has less experience. A skilled player will most likely steer their toon as efficiently as you.
It's never correct to assume that we have the supperior skill over our opponents either. This is an old game and players who still play it only keep getting better at it.
All tools in the toolkit have countermeasures which makes them unrealiable (for example: NEB is great but you have no way of knowing whether the enemy has NE protection active or not. Freedom beats the slow part of grease, etc.). All of the countermeasures have a fairly long duration too.

Pretty much all the vetted melee/ranged builds listed on the wiki work with full BAB classes to reach full BAB while maxing out one of the two primary attack stats (STR/DEX). The sole exception being the WIS based caster cleric build who can reach full BAB through divine Divine power. That'd mean that the lowest of the low AB value that an optimized build who hopes to use melee/ranged attacks can have would be around 44 (correct me if I'm wrong here). This tells us that AC 54 is probably the lowest AC value that a character needs in order not to get instantly roflstomped the moment somebody catches up with them.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

If a mage lacks the control environment features via skill or toolkit then asf removsl.is not the answer 50+ ab will still rip through the ac values i provided earlier and the ac of an armored mage if you can't reposition/debuff/catch your breath properly. If you could facetank that then every build should have that kind of ab. The high end abs have certain weaknesses (or should) and they need to be exploited and giving mages free armor wont be the solution other than punishing weaker offense builds even further.

I don't see how player skill can make the character move any faster - sure, you can avoid getting get stuck on tiles and move more efficiently around terrain features, but that can only help if the opposing player has less experience. A skilled player will most likely steer their toon as efficiently as you.
All tools in the toolkit have countermeasures which makes them unrealiable (for example: NEB is great but you have no way of knowing whether the enemy has NE protection active or not).

Pretty much all the vetted melee/ranged builds listed on the wiki work with full BAB classes to reach full BAB while maxing out one of the two primary attack stats (STR/DEX). The sole exception being the WIS based caster cleric build who can reach full BAB through divine Divine power. That'd mean that the lowest of the low AB that an optimized build can have would be around 44 (correct me if I'm wrong here). This tells us that AC 54 is probably the lowest AC value that a character needs in order not to get instantly roflstomped the moment somebody catches up with them.

Always mords which including breaching and removinf several things to exploit like lack of freedom, NEP, etc.

I am actually no expert; nor saying you are unskilled. I am saying if the tools currently provided are not enough, i feel removing armor asf is the wrong direction for a multitude of reasons (this would increase the gap between div dip sorcerors and regular mages) including still not having enough ac to survive the high ab builds. Nobody should be face tanking burst offense moments as a reliable tactic.

*edit* 14 base dex wizard can reach 54 ac by the way. My example wasnt a dex mod 8 one but a 400+ hp one.

[-XXX-]

Alright, that'd make 1) Extended Haste 2) Disjunction 3) Grease/NEB by now... you might be able to do all that before they reach you if you used Timestop (assuming you don't get counter-timestopped). So you managed to slow them down and gain some breathing room to either
a) further slow them down by making them run around grease, ice/fire walls, cloudkills, incendiary clouds, mind fogs etc.
b) try your luck and throw some DC spells at them
c) use some direct damage spells to soften their hp before executing the evocation comb~ oh wait you already used timestop, nvm...
d) GSanc and make a run for it.

In the vast majority of scenarios d) is the correct option. This does not make PvP fun.


*edit* 54 AC was the lowest value necessary to mitigate the lowest AB build in the meta. That still does not make it worth building for IMO.
It served merely to demonstrate that having meaningful AC for PvP would not punish low AB builds, as they still have high enough AB and have other tools to get around that anyway.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Or start with greater sanctuary to have right buffs (you might be able to even yoink someone while doing this) up as their rage runs out and exit with mords + NEB/insert partial debuff spell here and soften them up for timestop evo combo (or test their saves with a thunderclap if you suspect a weak save). And if that doesn work, there s maybe something wrong with the kit, but it doesn't mean the solution is to let mages facetank more.

If we remove ASF. I am immediately making an orog sorceror with 400 hp armor di + 5 orog di with 73 ac with divine shield up with an extra feat to spare after buying EMA and armor skin because i didnt buy autostill 3.

But if you think that's an interesting direction for the future of mages along with all mages wearing armor, then I do not have much left to contribute to this conversation (I could contribute the breakdown still but my wife is not happy how much I been on my phone today).

[-XXX-]

So what's left there? Going back to the AC problem. Of course waiving ASF is not the only option here. The most unsophisticated approach might have been a simple EMA buff, but then the div dip matter would need to be addressed as well, before we'd have AC80 sorcerers running around.

I'm not insisting on the ASF removal. I simply wasn't willing to accept the argument against it based on nothing more than ASF always having been a D&D thing.

I wanted to suggest that mages needed AC in order to function in PvP and open up a discussion around "if" and "how high".

[Void]

So what's left there? Going back to the AC problem. Of course waiving ASF is not the only option here. The most unsophisticated approach might have been a simple EMA buff, but then the div dip matter would need to be addressed as well, before we'd have AC80 sorcerers running around.

I'm not insisting on the ASF removal. I simply wasn't willing to accept the argument against it based on nothing more than ASF always having been a D&D thing.

I wanted to suggest that mages needed AC in order to function in PvP and open up a discussion around "if" and "how high".

* Like mentioned, it is kidna a core element. It is like kinda changing chess rules at this point. "We should allow rooks go diagonally too"
* A common idea with a mage is to never end up in a situation where your AC is being tested.

Basically, in nwn2 you'd often do stuff like going eteheral and summoning stuff from there. On arelith it has been disabled. Greater Sanctuary no longer turns per level, unsummons epic pets and has a cooldown. Because it was very powerful.

[BHR55]

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shadow mage only suffer Cl penalty on evocation spells, your haste will be 27. SD gives full cl to shadow mages.

The breakdown was just to show that autostill doesn't actauly help mages because the ac gained from EMA is actaully greater because we already have armor with no spell failure.

Shadow Mage was initially given a -6CL to Trans, then it was said that this was removed. It appears that it was not in fact dropped from that particular update and is in fact applied to Trans as well. At least the DC for spells like Disintegrate seem to demonstrate that Trans is effected. I will review the code to confirm later when I have a chance.

I agree with your point about AC, and I was referring to green steel small of 1ac + 1. Green steel medium is 2shield +3 for 5 total. Your numbers are pretty accurate off the top of my head as well.

I do not think anything related to ASF/AutoStill is changing in the near term.