Quarter theft rule change.

[-XXX-]

We still have to go through the tedium of unrotating all the furniture after each break-in.

That's actually pretty funny. I'd give the thieves credit for that one

[TooManyPotatoes]

We still have to go through the tedium of unrotating all the furniture after each break-in.

That's actually pretty funny. I'd give the thieves credit for that one

Absolutely agree. It corresponds with the Arelith's stated goal of discouraging roleplay and encouraging memes.

There has been many discussions on the discords about making a character that rotates fixtures just to grief and annoy people.

I think it is inspirational, and a credit to what this community can achieve, that a group of people actually made this a reality.

Don't let your memes be dreams.

[-XXX-]

Well, as I see it there are two sides to this :

Turning the fixtures around looks like a good way of communicating that someone's entered the quarters and turned the place upside down while rummaging for treasure. In a way this represents a greater degree of interaction than just going in and taking the most valuable item from the quarter chest.

On the other hand, this is also a way of demonstrating how far one can go during quarterbreaking without the quarter's owner being able to do anything about it or becoming any wiser after the fact. Im not denying that there is a certain trolling aspect to it too.


I suppose it's a matter of moderation. An occassional incident like that can be funny and create some RP.
If this happens often enough to become a source of annoyance rather than fun, then it becomes an issue that should be forwarded to the DM team.



EDIT: There probably should be SOME unbreakable quarters IMO. For example, breaking into the Thane's halls in Brog because it's mechanically possible is one thing, doing that right under Darnoth's nose is another matter entirely...

[Hazard]

Is there any rule against putting fixtures/items INTO a quarter you break into more than once a day?

Could someone, say, fill their enemies home with chairs?

[JubJub]

Someone wants to rotate my fixtures, well go for it. Good way to show someone has been there. I have never had an issue with people trying to break in, if someone wants to build a max lockpick thief, good for them. The issue is some people will always try to find a way around any rule. I remember when someone would let five people in and because they weren't in a party they insisted that they weren't in a group so all five would take something. The big issue is how do you make stealing something meaningful. Usually if something gets taken from me, there is never any word from the thief or rp etc.. It's just gone and maybe you might see it in a shop one day. Or if you try to rp and let the person know how to get it back 99% of the time they never respond, unless it's something with alot of meaning. Usually they make a new fixture or get more ore and move on. It's hard to make a break in meaningful.

Just to clarify if I have a ore bag, gem bag, scroll case in my chest, now they have to open the bag and take one stack out? They can't just take the whole bag with everything in it? I'm not trying to be funny but if you have a greater mining bag (which can be hard to find) can they take everything out and just take the bag then?

[Ebonstar]

my biggest issue is when these quarter breakers have to go about picking or bashing the door and they ignore the npcs that are ten feet or less from the door while they do their shoddy play.

[Biolab00]

Someone wants to rotate my fixtures, well go for it. Good way to show someone has been there. I have never had an issue with people trying to break in, if someone wants to build a max lockpick thief, good for them. The issue is some people will always try to find a way around any rule. I remember when someone would let five people in and because they weren't in a party they insisted that they weren't in a group so all five would take something. The big issue is how do you make stealing something meaningful. Usually if something gets taken from me, there is never any word from the thief or rp etc.. It's just gone and maybe you might see it in a shop one day. Or if you try to rp and let the person know how to get it back 99% of the time they never respond, unless it's something with alot of meaning. Usually they make a new fixture or get more ore and move on. It's hard to make a break in meaningful.

Just to clarify if I have a ore bag, gem bag, scroll case in my chest, now they have to open the bag and take one stack out? They can't just take the whole bag with everything in it? I'm not trying to be funny but if you have a greater mining bag (which can be hard to find) can they take everything out and just take the bag then?

Sure, I'll announce it.

---

And not it can't be done with containers for now. While we want to be able to police containers and stacks of items the way tracking works is a bit more difficult to sort through by normal, mortal means. I think someone on the development team will address this eventually so it can be, though.

It's something that is a bit of a weird line with theft rules but right now has to by its limitations operate under the golden rule.

Bookshelves, however, are different. They are fixtures. We can see when someone has fiddled with them.

Here's to the new year and the expansion of the police state.

This matter was mentioned here before - viewtopic.php?f=37&t=36017&hilit=quarter.
Ultimately, it's up to our own moral gaming ethics. Other than quarterbreaking, there are also players who hold onto properties, without releasing them, even though they are almost offline 24/7. Then again, all of these belong to small issue and nothing that time can't resolve.

[JubJub]

I was mostly trying to understand that the new rule was saying you aren't suppose to take a bag with everything in it, but you need to take something out of the bag. I was just making sure I understood it correctly.

[Flower Power]

Are DMs actively checking this because it seems like a thief could still pretty easily hit different areas once a day and no one would be able to prove its the same one? Are we supposed to report every theft to make sure thieves are staying within their quota? Just wondering how it will be enforced or if it is honor system.

I'm 95% certain that item transfers between persistent storage containers are logged, so checking this would be as simple as one of the admins who has full access to the logs just doing a really quick search for the name/username of the suspected offending party. Not necessarily automated or the fastest thing in the world, but not incredibly technically difficult to suss out if they're still getting huge gluts of reports about quarterbreaking even after this rule change.

Honestly, I was about 5 seconds away from making a kudos thread for this, and I almost never bend over backwards to immediately praise the team after any given change, that's how much I dislike quarterbreakers and their love of safe noninteractive hostile actions that have zero counterplay.

[The GrumpyCat]

I was mostly trying to understand that the new rule was saying you aren't suppose to take a bag with everything in it, but you need to take something out of the bag. I was just making sure I understood it correctly.

Yep, you're correct. You can't take the full item. Just an item in it (or a stack of items). We've also now got logs to check that.

[Zavandar]

the update thread says you may "steal one (1) item from only one chest".

this conflicts with statements about being able to steal stacks.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Could the ruling announcement be edited to reflect the stuff in this thread (and the similar thread about bookshelf theft)? The stuff about how with containers and bookshelves, only 1 thing may be taken from it and not the whole container/shelf?

It'd be really helpful for the rules to also be updated with information about quarterbreaking so it'd make it easier to be aware of what the rules are.

I also have a question regarding shelves. If I want to copy multiple books from a shelf, can I take multiple books, copy them, and then break in again to return them? The original copies will be returned, so it's not like it's actually being stolen permanently. Just borrowed.

[MissEvelyn]

my biggest issue is when these quarter breakers have to go about picking or bashing the door and they ignore the npcs that are ten feet or less from the door while they do their shoddy play.

Honestly this. Bashing or picking a lock should absolutely make all the NPCs around you hostile. For lock picking a hide / move silently check could be rolled, but there is no realistic way a neighbor is letting watching you rob someone without doing anything about it, like yelling for the guards.

[Nitro]

Honestly, isn't it just about time that we did away with quarter theft mechanics completely instead of trying to change the rules to make it less griefy? 99 out of 100 times an item just silently disappears, and maybe if you're lucky you'll get a calling card that you can't use to track the thief anyway that lets you know that it's the person gloating on the message boards with a pseudonym that stole from you.

And quarterbreakers have only become more and more common as building a character capable of breaking into quarters has gotten easier and easier over time, and the knowledge of how to make such a build has proliferated to a lot more people.

[MRFTW]

I also have a question regarding shelves. If I want to copy multiple books from a shelf, can I take multiple books, copy them, and then break in again to return them? The original copies will be returned, so it's not like it's actually being stolen permanently. Just borrowed.

If you return the original books afterwards, it's not theft. This hilariously also applies in UK law.

[AstralUniverse]

I also have a question regarding shelves. If I want to copy multiple books from a shelf, can I take multiple books, copy them, and then break in again to return them? The original copies will be returned, so it's not like it's actually being stolen permanently. Just borrowed.

But what if the owner logs in and sees that all of the books are missing, before you had the time to copy and return them, the owner reports it as they should, and you've already broken the rule of 1 item.

[Duchess Says]

And quarterbreakers have only become more and more common as building a character capable of breaking into quarters has gotten easier and easier over time, and the knowledge of how to make such a build has proliferated to a lot more people.

Yeah exactly. The problem is not a few bad actors rampantly stealing, it's the number of players who are running quarterbreakers. I would guess most of them actually do stay within the rules but if too many characters are doing this you'll still get frequently hit with the same old problem of them having access whenever they want if they can beat the lock DC and you having no recourse or ability to investigate much less retrieve stolen items.

The current system and even updated rules depend on it being something rarely played or done. It can't support it being a popular activity.

[Hazard]

Too much RP is protected from any consequences by locked doors. Quarter breaking should be even easier than it is.
RP should have consequences you can't just escape from by staying home.

If there was a way to prevent theft of items, but make entry easier, I'd be all for that.

There's been a lot of factions of enemies you just can't do anything about because they stay home and only come out when no one is online. Pretty lame of them to act this way.

Even with quarterbreaking as it is now, you'd need a dedicated quarterbreaker, they'd need to be online the same time your group is online, and also at the same time as the targets are online otherwise you're just going into an empty house and they can likely ignore that or downplay it pretty easily. To accomplish this requires OOC coms like discord, encouraging even more discord use and metagaming.

It should just be easier to break into properties, and maybe chests should have their own locking doors with a higher DC.
That way getting in is possible and people can react and interact like they're supposed to, but you can't just clean them out.

You can go in confront the people who have been hiding behind the safety of a door that has more defensive-enchantments than Paush's arse.

[AstralUniverse]

I'd be the first to say that Theft should have it's rightful place in the setting, but it's a RP server, and 'theft RP' doesnt really promote any RP. In fact the better rogue you are, the less RP it will create so I just dont see the point anymore. In an ideal world, theft would be much easier to do but catching the thief would be actually a possible scenario without the thief wanting to get caught intentionally like it is right now in Arelith.

So I think quarters should be easier to break into but storage chest should be hard-locked, no chance to steal.

RP should have consequences you can't just escape from by staying home.

This.

[MissEvelyn]

We still have to go through the tedium of unrotating all the furniture after each break-in.

LOL

Don't give the thieves new ideas

[TooManyPotatoes]

We still have to go through the tedium of unrotating all the furniture after each break-in.

LOL

Don't give the thieves new ideas

I bring it up because this is literally already happening.

This is the level of roleplay that is being protected.

I recognise the hands of many in the DM team are tied by the wishes of those up top. They are doing the best they can and ive no doubt the latest rule change came after much pleading from within their own ranks after being forced to deal with a stream of reports. A stream of reports that still underrepresents the scale of the problem as many have simply given up on reporting.

I was simply highlighting the reality of things in as concise a manner as i could in the vague hope that those with the power to change things might realise what the rules are actually accomplishing.

[Slapstick]

As much as I hate the concept of non-RP related quarterbreaking and stealing, I understand it has to be possible due to RP related potential. However, with a large number of thieves around, a lot of theft can happen to one person within a week. Would it not be better to make a quarter un-inbreakable if it's already been broken into this week? (Or 24h if you for some reason insist on allowing daily theft. Weekly should be max IMO).

If the local thieves guild then go out on their weekly protection racket break-in route and discoveres quarters already have been robbed, they can get the job of tracking down rogue quarterbreakers that are operating on their turf. It also prevents repeated break-ins from multiple players. The IC explanation could simply be that "recent robbery in this area has increased security surveillance to the point that a break-in is no longer viable"

[The GrumpyCat]

As much as I hate the concept of non-RP related quarterbreaking and stealing, I understand it has to be possible due to RP related potential. However, with a large number of thieves around, a lot of theft can happen to one person within a week. Would it not be better to make a quarter un-inbreakable if it's already been broken into this week? (Or 24h if you for some reason insist on allowing daily theft. Weekly should be max IMO).

If the local thieves guild then go out on their weekly protection racket break-in route and discoveres quarters already have been robbed, they can get the job of tracking down rogue quarterbreakers that are operating on their turf. It also prevents repeated break-ins from multiple players. The IC explanation could simply be that "recent robbery in this area has increased security surveillance to the point that a break-in is no longer viable"

This was suggested.
The thing is, I don't think most people mind - or even know, if their quarter has been 'broken into.' They care mostly about people stealing their stuff. Further more I'd say 'breaking into ' quarters either always crates rp, or is unnoticed. And if it's unnoticed, why do you care? People only really start caring when things go missing (or I guess, massive amounts of fixtures are rotated heh)

I've always been a huge proponent for quraters being breakable, I'm less of a proponent for things being stolen.

Keep in mind too... and I'll quote from you here..

However, with a large number of thieves around, a lot of theft can happen to one person within a week.

Keep in mind that the rule is now that a person can steal on item from ANYONE per day. So yes, a lot of theft can happen to a person within one week, but only if an entire group of thieves are deliberatly targeting /That Person/ and /NO ONE ELSE/.

If Bob the thief steals an item from your chest then Bob cannot steal an item from ANYONE ELSES chest.

Keep in mind too that a cunning thief would likely go for high value targets, unless there's some sort of deliberate hit going on against you. So yes. If your chest is stacked full constantly of adamantium ingots, then you're in trouble. But if there's other people with higher, or more interesting, value items then they're more likely to be a target. So realistically I don't see this as being terribly likely?

[Drogo Gyslain]

As much as I hate the concept of non-RP related quarterbreaking and stealing, I understand it has to be possible due to RP related potential. However, with a large number of thieves around, a lot of theft can happen to one person within a week. Would it not be better to make a quarter un-inbreakable if it's already been broken into this week? (Or 24h if you for some reason insist on allowing daily theft. Weekly should be max IMO).

If the local thieves guild then go out on their weekly protection racket break-in route and discoveres quarters already have been robbed, they can get the job of tracking down rogue quarterbreakers that are operating on their turf. It also prevents repeated break-ins from multiple players. The IC explanation could simply be that "recent robbery in this area has increased security surveillance to the point that a break-in is no longer viable"

This was suggested.
The thing is, I don't think most people mind - or even know, if their quarter has been 'broken into.' They care mostly about people stealing their stuff. Further more I'd say 'breaking into ' quarters either always crates rp, or is unnoticed. And if it's unnoticed, why do you care? People only really start caring when things go missing (or I guess, massive amounts of fixtures are rotated heh)

I've always been a huge proponent for quraters being breakable, I'm less of a proponent for things being stolen.

Keep in mind too... and I'll quote from you here..

However, with a large number of thieves around, a lot of theft can happen to one person within a week.

Keep in mind that the rule is now that a person can steal on item from ANYONE per day. So yes, a lot of theft can happen to a person within one week, but only if an entire group of thieves are deliberatly targeting /That Person/ and /NO ONE ELSE/.

If Bob the thief steals an item from your chest then Bob cannot steal an item from ANYONE ELSES chest.

Keep in mind too that a cunning thief would likely go for high value targets, unless there's some sort of deliberate hit going on against you. So yes. If your chest is stacked full constantly of adamantium ingots, then you're in trouble. But if there's other people with higher, or more interesting, value items then they're more likely to be a target. So realistically I don't see this as being terribly likely?

What about the issue surrounding stealing entire bookshelves?

I've had this happen, multiple times at this point, where thieves enter and take entire shelves of books. I've raised this issue several times with staff regarding rules surrounding the theft of dozens of items in one go, being foul play. I can reasonably see someone grabbing a table, or a chair... stealing a couch...

But even a group of characters, it's rather incongruous to walk in and -steal- an entire bookshelf full of books and items.

And the container argument aside, a Bookshelf is a container, Full of containers at worst. The rule is "1 stack of items", but what if that item is a stack of items which are also stacks of items?

Doing the math, a Bookshelf holds around 100 items, and each of those can be a notebook, holding 35 notes each.

The theft of 3500 notes would be devastating to a library, massive amounts of time, effort and research gone just because Jim-bob wants to be a jerk. Often with little or no RP surrounding the break in and theft.

With this rule change being officialized, does this finally apply to making bookshelves off limits for being stolen from quarters? The amount of RP is never justified to just how much can be lost.

Or is it still within my rights as a character to break into the Erudite Arcanum, and take an entire shelf of books, for the simple reason of Because Can?

[fulminea]

What about the issue surrounding stealing entire bookshelves?

Stealing entire bookshelves is illegal since:

- Re: Arelith Updates - by The GrumpyCat » Wed Jan 12, 2022 7:05 pm
Stealing a fixture from the home does /not/ count as the one item but is still limited to one per day per individual/group. However a bookshelf (and any future similar fixture) should only have one item taken from it.

If it happens, it is now reportable.

There aren't many thief guilds around. You can count them on one hand.

I would recommend everyone to see the effects of the latest ruling, which limits theft activities to stealing 1 item + 1 fixture per 24 hours for one group from the entirety of Arelith.