24 Hour Rule

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Ork
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Ork »

The GrumpyCat wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:42 pmDoesn't it take two to tango?
If you've killed someone twice, in a short time, and they arn't submitting then perhaps (wild idea) you should consider another angle? Talk to them ooc? And if they really, really really won't move at all then (and again situation I'll admit) Is it really worth you pushing it?

Like, if you're in a sitaution where you want Outcome A, and person B isn't willing under any circumstances to give it, maye a good idea is to stop banging your head against a brick wall, making both yourself, and them, miserable and go on to greener pastures?
I don't know Grumpy. Here is where I am at as a player. Let's for instance that I want to control a non-settlement location like the small ranger's shack in Arelith forest. I go there, I roleplay out of there. Maybe I'm a Malarite that uses the shack as ambush for hunting people. Cool- adversarial and thematic. Along comes ranger guy that also wants to use the shack for ranger things.

Our two narratives for that location are incompatible. I want to use it for evil malarite stuff and he wants to use it for good ranger stuff- both valid roleplay opportunities. Who gets to use it? If we get into conflict and I win the PvP, imagine how disheartening it would be to then revisit that same conflict 24h later. Say I keep winning- why does the victor need to abandon the push?

Now, because I don't want to keep fighting this guy, I personally would leave- but, I don't think it is right that I should & that someone who is just that much more bullheaded than me recieves narrative control of said location.

There are countless examples of someone making a "push" narratively, being soundly defeated, but continue to push and push and push.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by The GrumpyCat »

Ork wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:42 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:42 pmDoesn't it take two to tango?
If you've killed someone twice, in a short time, and they arn't submitting then perhaps (wild idea) you should consider another angle? Talk to them ooc? And if they really, really really won't move at all then (and again situation I'll admit) Is it really worth you pushing it?

Like, if you're in a sitaution where you want Outcome A, and person B isn't willing under any circumstances to give it, maye a good idea is to stop banging your head against a brick wall, making both yourself, and them, miserable and go on to greener pastures?
I don't know Grumpy. Here is where I am at as a player. Let's for instance that I want to control a non-settlement location like the small ranger's shack in Arelith forest. I go there, I roleplay out of there. Maybe I'm a Malarite that uses the shack as ambush for hunting people. Cool- adversarial and thematic. Along comes ranger guy that also wants to use the shack for ranger things.

Our two narratives for that location are incompatible. I want to use it for evil malarite stuff and he wants to use it for good ranger stuff- both valid roleplay opportunities. Who gets to use it? If we get into conflict and I win the PvP, imagine how disheartening it would be to then revisit that same conflict 24h later. Say I keep winning- why does the victor need to abandon the push?

Now, because I don't want to keep fighting this guy, I personally would leave- but, I don't think it is right that I should & that someone who is just that much more bullheaded than me recieves narrative control of said location.

There are countless examples of someone making a "push" narratively, being soundly defeated, but continue to push and push and push.
True and this will always I think be on a case by case basis. It's why we need to be really leery of attatching strict rules/mechanics to it. Because on the one hand - the situation you've just described up above, where both are hitting each other on and on with neither giving in - is not good. On the other having somone kill someone else constantly to get X thing is not good. On the third hand, having someone deliberatly goad someone who COULD kill them constantly isn't good. Each situation has to be taken on its own merits.

As to the origional suggestion on this topic I will say this...
Changing the ruling so you cann /kill/ someone you've killed before wthin a week is... an idea. I'm not sure how good/bad it is, but I wouldn't write it off entirely.
However having the current 24 hour ruling (No rp) simply extended to 7 days would likely be a poor idea, and make situations very awkward.
This too shall pass.

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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Morgy »

I'm not sure changing this rule is the answer exactly, because it can impact the decent RP of players who are being fair to each other, but perhaps don't know/think to waive the '72hr' rule.. and I'd say it's too long a period.

Although it requires more 'admin' type work from the DM/leadership team, I think a better answer here is simply to give out tougher penalities/bans to players who appear to be deliberately and continuously misbehaving/griefing with pvp. This is also the minority of pvp-related rule breaks, hopefully.

In a situation where players refuse to adapt their plot/story against another PCs, despite pvp interactions, I think a discussion about the value of 'respecting death' is relevant. Pvp-designed builds will have an advantage in directing stories sometimes in these cases, but the alternative of that is reducing the already water-down importance of death by just refusing to see it as a drawback to your cause.

Something for all of us to consider is: If you MUST rely on mechanical pvp to resolve a conflict OFTEN, instead of RPing other methods of conflict, it might be time to step back and re-consider if what you're doing is healthy.

Honestly, the ultimate solution would be people communicate a little better and work together to create these stories, instead of try to make the story go just their own way. Please talk to each other if you feel things are becoming toxic.. silence doesn't fix much.

(This post felt disjointed in my tired state of writing, apologies!)
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Wings of Peace »

Borin Drakkmurl wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:15 pm There's another rule that's been a golden standard on Arelith forever and that preceeds all other rules, always:

The Be Nice Rule.

Following other rules and DM guidelines to the letter in order to "get away" with stupid shit or to be able to lawyer your way out of having behaved like a moron?

That's Not Nice.

So if you see someone abusing the 24h rule, which sounds like what you're describing, report it to the Dms.

I bet things will get sorted out quick enough.
Maybe this reply should be it's own thread but frankly I think it's weird people suggest Be Nice as if rules enforcement was actually sufficient in its current state to make Be Nice matter. From seeing people bullied into rolling, to people bragging after the cheating that led to the transition delay being added, I have never once seen DMs respond in a timely enough matter to a relevant rulebreak to impact the experience of those affected. I'm sure it happens somewhere when I'm not around but unless the topic being dealt with is cybering or blatant mechanical exploitation I think Be Nice as a rule is just there for symbolic purposes. That's not a shot at the dms either, I do believe they try hard, but enforcement from what I've seen simply isn't up to par enough for me to seriously understand how Be Nice is an answer to anything.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Kalthariam »

I'd be for a change to make it that you cannot fight / kill each other in 72 hours, no interactions is a bit much, especially in some places that everythings centralized (Underdark hub for example)

Honestly. the sheer amount of kill bashing I see and how quickly people seem to just jump to PvP interactions to settle conflits is somewhat alarming to me. I've never been one to feel like PvP interactions should be the only way to to solve disputes, but it seems to always boil down to PvP disputes and people just killing each other constantly.

I personally feel like there's a bit too much emphasis on PvP driving player narratives, which is why anytime you want to do something quirky or weird and ask people if it's possible, everyone basically looks at you like you have two heads because you aren't following a meta-style build that always invests into skills that are mandatory for PvP. Or you know, the people that seem to get upset if you state you do not like engaging in PvP and do not plan to, thus you do not want to plan your build around said encounters.

I feel like making it to where you cannot murder each other so easily and freely without consequences maybe things would feel like they are less driven by murder-hobo behavior and people whom prefer to settle things without active PvP might be able to get a foot in when it comes to conflict, even if they don't decided to munchkin their builds and tailor them specifically for PvP encounters. Right now it feels like if you don't build for PvP, you might as well not even engage in anything political or get involved into any conflicts, because it's likely always going to come down to a fight, and if you're not built for PvP, you just lose.

Mind you, I do understand that PvP does have a place in narratives. However, in my opinion it feels like active PvP drives narratives too much, and is often the first thing people resort to when conflict breaks out in any fashion.

Over half of the new I ever hear about is. "X faction murdered y person" "X person killed someone and bashed their corpse in front of the portal again." "A fight broke out between x and y factions." and it's just non-stop PvP encounters, Sometimes seeing the same bashed corpse in public areas over resets of servers. Then, if it isn't active pvp it's just people talkin' garbage on public boards goading people into more violent fights (Or mocking them because they cannot fend off kill squads sent after them).

Mind you, this is all opinion, and just based on what I personally witness in game, there's probably plenty of people whom settle their differences all the time without resorting to violence or PvP, but I'm just not seeing it personally.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Morgy »

The trouble with putting a 72 hour rule of 'no combat' in, means that an individual can abuse the safety of knowing they can say/do whatever they like to the other PC without having significant consequence for potentially another 48 hours. This won't work where hostile parties live in the same settlement especially (like Andunor).. Once you can interact, you need to have unlimited interaction or this all becomes too complicated.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Edens_Fall »

As a player of multiple evil PCs whom have been hunted and killbashed into oblivion, I'm rather fine with the current 24 HR rule. Anything longer places more advantage to the winning side to say or do whatever they want while the losing side is forced to avoid them. Hard to do in cities like Sibayad or Andunor.

On a side note, while builds are important for 1v1 battles, I find most pvp to never be 1v1. In general one side will heavily outnumber the other while being prepared with wards etc. So it doesn't matter how good your build is if your outnumbered 6 to 1. Thats were the RP comes in. Making friends and alliances.

If PvP isn't your thing then just invest a little in escape and do whatever build you want. Fleeing from pvp isn't rly that hard.
Last edited by Edens_Fall on Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-XXX-
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by -XXX- »

PvP is an effective means of IC conflict resolution only when all parties involved agree that it is.
I find that in an overwhelming majority of cases that does not appear to be the case.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Zavandar »

I think things are fine as they are

Remember to report stuff that you think might be breaching Be Nice

Remember that actions have consequences

Remember that not every report is going to lead to a perma-ban of everyone you don't like
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by AstralUniverse »

-XXX- wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:33 pm PvP is an effective means of IC conflict resolution only when all parties involved agree that it is.
It's pretty effective when you are playing with people who actually respect the heavy weight of death and respect the setting. Unfortunately in this reality people think they are entitled to just shrug it off and continue on whatever they're doing and they deserve a report. PVP does not require consent.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by ReverentBlade »

There's two sides of that coin. People jump to violence at absolutely unrealistic and absurd things, and giving those deaths heavy narrative significance is just as lame as ignoring death altogether.

A good PvP build does not give you carte blanche to strongarm any narrative you please.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by -XXX- »

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:17 pm
-XXX- wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:33 pm PvP is an effective means of IC conflict resolution only when all parties involved agree that it is.
It's pretty effective when you are playing with people who actually respect the heavy weight of death and respect the setting. Unfortunately in this reality people think they are entitled to just shrug it off and continue on whatever they're doing and they deserve a report. PVP does not require consent.
You're dismissing a half of the argument there. While PvP does not require consent, follow up RP is not mandatory either.

Before we start shaming people for bad RP and disrespecting the setting, it might be worth examining whether players who get entangled in 24 hrs griefing cycles are actually the living proof of the Stormwind fallacy or if something else could be going on there instead.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Watchful Glare »

ReverentBlade wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:29 pm There's two sides of that coin. People jump to violence at absolutely unrealistic and absurd things, and giving those deaths heavy narrative significance is just as lame as ignoring death altogether.

A good PvP build does not give you carte blanche to strongarm any narrative you please.
I beg to differ. I've had conversations with people on this thread who, despite them saying otherwise here now, have otherwise claimed to not see scryganking someone every 24hs, or resorting to PvP every 24 hours with the outs given being 'cease to exist or give up everything your character stands for' as bullying behaviour.

I think it falls on a lack of self-awareness that the rules are seen as wire fence where everything is allowed so long as you don't get caught doing specific things, because then no one can prove anything and the worst they can do is frown. It reminds me of primary school where a group of people would bully someone, then tell the teacher that it was the victim that started it, after all it's five on one and they were there. It may be physical, it might be harrying them until they finally lash out with violence. There's probably some inner narrative where (sans severe cognitive dissonance) the person on the receiving end 'deserves it' for one or another made up reason, and they're emboldened by the support of their own group, like an echo-chamber. Or much like bullying in itself, it's not really your concern or your fault.

The difference is, we're not in primary school and records of all those interactions remain. Not just in Arelith, where I imagine DMs keep a record of these things through the years, but in the community itself at large as people migrate and they reach other servers as well and carry their experiences with themselves where they go. If it's always the same individuals then perhaps it's a good thing to start asking questions, and consider how many times can something be considered an unfortunate coincidence, or if there's a behavioural pattern.

I encourage everyone to report this kind of behaviour and misdemeanor when they see it. It's unfortunate that many times over the years I've witnessed people that feel they would rather not engage at all, or that it's pointless to report things because nothing gets done at the end of the day, or it may even make you a target next for speaking up, the belief that certain people are favored by DMs or protected in some way, which leads to what was mentioned before.

The Be Nice rule is there because the people that made the server, the people that run it, the people in charge have an idea of what they would like their server to be like, and the general atmosphere they would like it to have. That is something that goes beyond not wanting the most egregious rulebreaks to happen. It's about the quality of the experience in it, not as a roleplaying place in itself, but as a community. The best thing you can do is just play your character and be your best self, and report suspicious or wrong behaviour. Even if you think nothing gets done, or nothing changes, go through the official channels and see it done rather than give up on it and assume that's just how things are on Arelith. That is the wrong attitude to have.

The Team cannot be everywhere. They cannot know everything. And they do not have context. They are human, and they too have their own faults, their biases and their own lives that keep them from acting 'in the moment', but they all too want the place to be the best it can be. The process they go through takes time. Those that engage in this kind of behaviour probably do the same things as primary school bullies (Take things out of context, try to frame someone else, try to paint themselves as the victims) in an effort to drown out the possibility that they might be the ones to stand out. And well, what can you do about that? At first sight, it appears nothing. But Arelith is a community that has been around for a long time, so bear in mind you're likely not the only one to have experienced this through the years. Your experience is valid, and it helps not just you and the ones playing now, but the ones that will come in the future when this behaviour keeps repeating itself, if it wasn't fixed in your time. Remember, you are not alone, and these people are not a majority, or the server would be on fire.

If you cannot have faith in those that are at the lead, and those that are the keepers of the community, you will find your experience severely diminished as you yourself start to believe that the experiences you had is what's encouraged, what's desired, or what is tolerated. Or at best, that there's just indifference. I understand how this can be the impression at times with punishments and the work of DMs being kept private, so you cannot see it yourself. But if you get to that point and you genuinely cannot find it within yourself to believe it is otherwise, and that such is Arelith all the good things it has, then the best thing you can do is just not engage in it.

For your own health. Without rancor, or spite, or resentment. Nothing awaits you but inevitable stress, and possibly a meme about the definition of insanity. It will just make you bitter and jaded. To believe something is toxic yet engaing in it again is not going to do you any good. But before doing such give having faith a chance, and give it a honest try, and believe things do work out and issues are resolved.

Ultimately also, try to believe people can change for the better and learn. Give them at least one chance. If there is no redemption, then there is nothing but the crime, forever.

The carrying of OOC grudges ultimately defeats the whole purpose of roleplaying as playing a character that is not yourself, and it's a sad thing when you see it come up again, and again, and again.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Duchess Says »

I feel like this needs to be said. Sometimes you run into a brick wall here like a really obstinate player who's loose with PVP but knows how to keep it within the rules. Of course report a violation, but like any other confrontation in life or on the internet sometimes the best move is to step back instead of putting yourself in a situation where you're repeatedly frustrated and increasingly angry.

We all want to see those who wrong us smited but it just doesn't happen like that in game or in life. Shelf the character for a while and play an alt. Even a few weeks can make a huge difference.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Biolab00 »

Duchess Says wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 1:07 am I feel like this needs to be said. Sometimes you run into a brick wall here like a really obstinate player who's loose with PVP but knows how to keep it within the rules. Of course report a violation, but like any other confrontation in life or on the internet sometimes the best move is to step back instead of putting yourself in a situation where you're repeatedly frustrated and increasingly angry.

We all want to see those who wrong us smited but it just doesn't happen like that in game or in life. Shelf the character for a while and play an alt. Even a few weeks can make a huge difference.
You're absolutely right, if it's simply player against player. But when a collective group against a single player? Sometimes, foundation matters. Foundation can be setup through OOC means or IC means.
For IC means, generally long-term players will have their means to resolve such matters. A group or faction that exists for very long, will be able to fight against OOC collective group.
But new players ( less than 2 years, for myself are still considered new players ) will be the group that suffer through such means. Their foundation isn't sturdy enough to sustain such damages and it's a matter of luck sometimes when this happens which makes them lose confidence.

However, conflicts are generally complicated enough. Everyone's push and pull have their own yardstick and that's why fire started. It's only how heavy the fire burns or probably when the firefighter arrives.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by msheeler »

The only thing I would add to what has been said here is that the burden of fairness, in my mind, falls on the instigator rather than the victim, which means means the burden of 'be nice' falls not on the who initiates the PvP necessarily, but on the one who began the conflict.

To use the example Ork gave above, if the evil Malorite has taken control of the ranger hut and uses it to instigate attacks on poor travelers in the area then the burden of be nice is on Ork to make sure that he is making that situation something where those poor travelers can have fun being attacked. Do they get an opportunity to hunt him down later? Is there some win and some loose on each side?

Most importantly, in my mind, is are we careful not to math this out to where 'I' win all the time because I built the best possible build ever, to heck with what the stats implicate so long as all the bonuses are right where I need them. Ganky builds can go both ways too, and that is a point to remember. These characters represent fictional people that we use to tell stories, and stories are most often better when those characters have flaws that create obstacles they have to struggle with.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Ork »

msheeler wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:21 pm The only thing I would add to what has been said here is that the burden of fairness, in my mind, falls on the instigator rather than the victim, which means means the burden of 'be nice' falls not on the who initiates the PvP necessarily, but on the one who began the conflict.

To use the example Ork gave above, if the evil Malorite has taken control of the ranger hut and uses it to instigate attacks on poor travelers in the area then the burden of be nice is on Ork to make sure that he is making that situation something where those poor travelers can have fun being attacked. Do they get an opportunity to hunt him down later? Is there some win and some loose on each side?

Most importantly, in my mind, is are we careful not to math this out to where 'I' win all the time because I built the best possible build ever, to heck with what the stats implicate so long as all the bonuses are right where I need them. Ganky builds can go both ways too, and that is a point to remember. These characters represent fictional people that we use to tell stories, and stories are most often better when those characters have flaws that create obstacles they have to struggle with.
I think you've got a wild take on the "be nice" rule, haha. Snuggle a Bugbear man.

Here's the rule, tell me where it says it's upon the instigator to make sure their victims are having fun. I'll wait.
"Unwarranted rudeness, potentially offensive role play, inappropriate sexual references, foul language, harassment, killing non-hostile NPCs without DM supervision, and poor gamesmanship (including wanton destruction, griefing of any kind, exploiting known or unknown bugs, transferring items, logging to avoid consequences, etc) are prohibited.
I don't know what fun for you is, but I can be a good sport in how I approach PvP and I can make sure my roleplay is stellar to allow for flexes in opportunities of counter-play.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by msheeler »

Ork wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 8:27 pm poor gamesmanship
Ork wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 8:27 pm I don't know what fun for you is, but I can be a good sport in how I approach PvP and I can make sure my roleplay is stellar to allow for flexes in opportunities of counter-play.
This. Though, I wouldn't even go so far as to say stellar RP. I just want people to do the best they can and if they want to win big, be willing to loose big.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Ork »

There was a long time in my gamingship on Arelith that I sought to make sure everyone had fun: to bend over backwards, to communicate OOC, to extend the olive branch, etc (all still good things). My preoccupation with everyone elses fun deprived me of the same. I realized that when I play this game, first and foremost I should commit my energy to my roleplay. My goal is to create interesting, new and unique opportunities to springboard roleplay and be as inclusive as I can in both facilitator of others' roleplay and a catalyst for conflict.

I cannot predict how players will react to my roleplay. In fact, I know many dislike my roleplay and gripe about it in OOC arenas. I can't control your fun, simply. I can control myself. I can make my roleplay engaging, and that's ultimately where my energy is going to go. If anyone is not having fun as a result of my roleplay, there's plenty of ways to contact me.

I don't think the "be nice" rule means I have to ensure anyone around me is having fun, because I can't effect their fun. That's the individual's responsibility. You can take a crappy situation and turn it into a fun, engaging and interesting story.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire »

Easy solution that everyone is going to hate. Make pvp deaths only recoverable from if raised. It removes all the awkward nonsense discussed in this thread, it gives death more meaning, and the important bit...it will actually make pvp mean something and will cut down on how fast people jump into it. No one is going to believe me when I say that, but it would be true, I am certain of it.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Hunter548 »

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:01 am Easy solution that everyone is going to hate. Make pvp deaths only recoverable from if raised. It removes all the awkward nonsense discussed in this thread, it gives death more meaning, and the important bit...it will actually make pvp mean something and will cut down on how fast people jump into it. No one is going to believe me when I say that, but it would be true, I am certain of it.
I don't know that I'd go to one life, but I'd be in favor of some sort of limited random-life MoD for PVP deaths with one caveat: DMs would need to be a lot more aggressive about policing people who engage in really silly things, or go trawling the server in 10 man blobs looking to kill anyone they run into. They'd need to give people lives back for lives lost in this sort of thing too, to my mind.

Ultimately I don't see that happening so it's a bit of a moot point, but it'd do a lot (in my mind) to cut down on both "I don't care if you kill me, you are a bad man and I am good and I'm gonna tell everyone what a murderer you are after I respawn" silliness and "You left a gate open so I'm going to kill you" silliness.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Ork »

Yeah, if be down for that too with the caveats hunter outlined. I think a lot of our issues revolve around how conflict can persist ad nauseum because our characters exist until we say so.
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Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer »

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:01 am Easy solution that everyone is going to hate. Make pvp deaths only recoverable from if raised. It removes all the awkward nonsense discussed in this thread, it gives death more meaning, and the important bit...it will actually make pvp mean something and will cut down on how fast people jump into it. No one is going to believe me when I say that, but it would be true, I am certain of it.
lol so roll my lvl 3 to 11 character who got murdered in cordor with the culprit logging out with my body? 80% of my pvp deaths have been under lvl 12 from someone way more powerful in area much below their level providing no real out.

it will just encourage the mentality of needing to be high levels, and have gank sqauds even more to protect your interests against others.

When it comes to non pvp, like just finding a group to do end level content with and no one wants to respond to some guy's rp (i never done end game as I am never level 30 so don't think this is me). It's because people are not obligated entertain/give RP. if PvP is rp, suddenly we are obligated to give our RP, literally end our story right then and there to a murderhobo, but not to a guy innocently wanted to do PvE? I think there needs to be a balance here and Arelith does a good job of trying to achieve that. Non consent pvp rules exist so we can't just do whatever we want with no consequence. Its niche situations where people are gettting into pvp over and over and over again. Like how many people even constantly play lvl 30 characters?

Honestly, you might as well just add permadeath to pve without raise too if you did it for PvP, because on some characters I have died more to PvP than PvE and it had nothing to do with my choice on some of them. We should be IC at all times, PvE death should have no less weight than PvP death IMO. Death is death.
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Amateur Hour
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:50 am

Re: 24 Hour Rule

Post by Amateur Hour »

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:01 am Easy solution that everyone is going to hate. Make pvp deaths only recoverable from if raised. It removes all the awkward nonsense discussed in this thread, it gives death more meaning, and the important bit...it will actually make pvp mean something and will cut down on how fast people jump into it. No one is going to believe me when I say that, but it would be true, I am certain of it.
The problem is that too many people on this server have genuine problems understanding "this would make me upset if someone did it to me, so I shouldn't do it to others." What they'll see is "if I can make a good enough PvP build and get a solid enough group, no one will ever be able to get revenge on me if I kill them."

Rolled: Solveigh Arnimayne, "Anna Locksley"
Shelved: Maethiel Tyireale'ala, Lalaith Durothil
Current: Ynge Redbeard, ???

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