atmosphere and tone

[Nurel]

Rolling characters and its implication is a big dilemma. On one hand it provides players with a drive to start anew, keeping the server "fresh" and helping to accomodate the numerous mechanical changes and updates that happen constantly.

On the other hand, there are many arguments to be voiced about how this "rolling culture" is harmful to the storytelling aspect of the game.

From experience, I can say "high impact PCs" are greatly discouraged from being engaged with the world long-term, as population landscapes shift extremely fast. For example, its quite draining to maintain a healthy faction when you /know/ 9 out of 10 of the new recruits you vet will be rolled the very moment they hit 26 (at worst), or by the time the next big rebalance update hits (at best).

It feels like the system leaves very little room for deep character development, and even less for story development.

During my short term as an upper-ranking settlement official I'd had plenty of nudges by the antagonist PC players to make stories happen, and I have to admit all of these attempts were /good/ and very well thought out. But, all came with a bitter feeling that I am the only one on the receiving end, and all of my IC friends were either gone already, or were on the fast track to burnout/rolling, or their players were jaded enough to have a completely passive predesposition to everything story related. Very soon I ended up feeling sort of "guilty" for not being able to make stories happen for my settlement, leading to a 6month+ burnout break and my eventual stepping down from the position.

Now, I know the system can't be responsible for my failing to create good stories, I can name many players who could and would have done a better job at leading a faction through a storyline than myself. I only mention this because I believe the rewards system and its implementation also has a very real (albeit indirect) effect on why the prominent positions of factions and settlements keep changing hands so often, and this bothers everyone afaik.

I do not doubt player characters can keep a settlement alive, and they can keep a faction populated and running nicely no matter how often people roll, but player characters can only do so much when it comes to story development. In my brief stay I have seen good ideas fizzle, and great characters whom I admired just losing momentum and rolling for an award waaay before their time. And naturally, with them, the aspirations of my character fizzled too.

I believe the heavy burden of keeping players (old and new) and their factions alive and invested in the world, should fall on the shoulders of our DMs. Us players just can't do it on our own; we quickly lose interest and roll. I know this has often been the cause of major drama, but I also think it needs to be said.

TLDR: I think DM Team should make more events in order to keep the people invested in their PCs and factions. Quantity over quality, just events allover the place in a consistent fashion.

[-XXX-]

re: sorrow we trust
i get you're joking here. potm does something like this, the dungeons are very hard and require very careful coordination, and dying in an epic dungeon can mean permanent closure (rolling) if you don't have an ooc group of friends who are also prepared, competent, and able to fish you out. you still see some flippancy about demons and so on, but they are regarded as a real threat. i don't know if it's necessarily a good answer though. dungeons that are hard just don't get visited (some of the spooky deep underdark/planar dungeons for instance)

PvE content resulting in perma death can lead to the players simply ignoring said PvE content. I don't think that's a solution. That being said, the incentive to engage more challenging PvE content doesn't seem to be present atm. either.

There are challenging dungeons out there, but they get largely neglected mostly because of the existance of EZ "runic pitstop" dungeons. Let's just look at the design flaws of the most notoriously grinded dungeons:

RDI - it's simply too short. Somewhat challenging (but still soloable) boss = grindable dungeon, dragon boss, can be completed under 10 mins
Aurilite Temple - fairly short EZ dungeon, moderate boss = grindable dungeon, dragon boss, can be completed under 10 mins
Avernus - super short, EZ dungeon, moderate boss = grindable dungeon, dragon boss, can be completed under 10 mins (do you see the pattern here?)
Izlude's Torment = IMO this one would have been fine challenge-wise, but it contains shortcuts allowing players to skip most of the dungeon = grindable dungeon, can be completed under 10 mins.
Doglom of the Deep Giants/Manor of Mourn - these contain locked doors that once unlocked allow players to continually keep skipping 90% of the content until the next reset = grindable dungeon, can be completed under 10 mins when the doors get unlocked.

IMO it's a stretch to expect players delve into the bigger and more difficult dugeons when they can complete either one of the aforementioned ones in a fraction of the time for the same reward. Furthermore, when given the option most players seem to prefer soloing easier content than having to split loot with the party after a more challenging and time consuming dungeon crawl - which is a circular problem as finding a party to take on the more challenging content can become increasingly difficult as a result.

The majority of these dungeons being primarily designed for low epic lvl characters while containing some of the most horrifying monsters that the FR lore has to offer does not help immersion very much.

[Edens_Fall]

I've found the biggest threat to my immersion is not the new player or the inexperienced roleplayer. It's the midwit. It's the technically competent but spiritually dead player. The terminally bored/boring who are either so detached they pervade unfunness, or so absorbed with winning the Latest Drama and getting the last word in on the messageboard that they don't have time to respond to our setting with the appropriate sense of wonder and delight (or terror and grief). Any event or happening that is not managed by DMs is a nuisance or not "real" enough to warrant genuine character writing. Every ruler is a tyrant, every provincial belief is bigotry, every group of new bright things are akshully death squads, death/loss didn't happen or if it did my god will just revive me, and anyone who hasn't been a part of some longstanding low-friction/high-status bureaucracy is a "who are you again?". Tell me you don't notice this manner of response from a large segment of Arelith's supposedly good roleplayers toward almost any kind of event or story beat.

Even the nonverbal craft lurker is more an "inhabitant" of the world for me. The "unwashed masses" I'm fine with. I could adventure with painfully naive, hardly in character Skaljardians and have fun, still feel a connection between our characters and the world. Anyone with honest intentions my immersion can withstand.

Well said.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I've found the biggest threat to my immersion is not the new player or the inexperienced roleplayer. It's the midwit. It's the technically competent but spiritually dead player. The terminally bored/boring who are either so detached they pervade unfunness, or so absorbed with winning the Latest Drama and getting the last word in on the messageboard that they don't have time to respond to our setting with the appropriate sense of wonder and delight (or terror and grief). Any event or happening that is not managed by DMs is a nuisance or not "real" enough to warrant genuine character writing. Every ruler is a tyrant, every provincial belief is bigotry, every group of new bright things are akshully death squads, death/loss didn't happen or if it did my god will just revive me, and anyone who hasn't been a part of some longstanding low-friction/high-status bureaucracy is a "who are you again?". Tell me you don't notice this manner of response from a large segment of Arelith's supposedly good roleplayers toward almost any kind of event or story beat.

Even the nonverbal craft lurker is more an "inhabitant" of the world for me. The "unwashed masses" I'm fine with. I could adventure with painfully naive, hardly in character Skaljardians and have fun, still feel a connection between our characters and the world. Anyone with honest intentions my immersion can withstand.

This is a really good post.

I think the biggest problem is there's too much player agency. Which has led to a lot of the server becoming a safe space. Everyone justifies it by saying "Well antagonists should just keep hidden," but the problem is, how are you going to tell meaningful stories if you're just hidden all the time? The sort of conflict that it lends to is the sort that people take OOC and leaves bad tastes in peoples' mouths, and really doesn't make the game world more fun. I'd give examples but doing so would reveal some peoples' secrets. And giving secrets up here would lead to story win mentality people desperately scrambling to try and find excuses to bring it in-game. Staring at characters, stalking them, scrying, just because they know OOC and want to try and win against them. Or suddenly because people know OOC, they'll stop roleplaying with those people IC, even if the characters got along well prior. I've seen both of these things happen, it is insane.

Proof of this is the lack of posts appearing in the stories forum these days. When I started, there were a whole lot more. I tried posting a lot too. I still do write a lot of character stuff, I just never post it because people would find ways to try and ruin my character just so they can get the win and brag about it. And in the server atmosphere, that could get you removed from every single RP hub except Guldorand and Andunor, before your character's even done anything. Before you even have a chance to impact the game world or do anything.

I've posted a lot about it, but antagonists have it pretty rough. A lot of people talk about how it's a problem evil characters run into, but it's actually anyone who shakes the boat, regardless of alignment. Even good aligned characters suffer it. And the end result is people trying to make life so hard for antagonists they feel forced to roll, which is absolutely disgusting behaviour. People sit behind closed doors and try to think up ways to ban people from every RP hub and hunt them so they can't even RP on that character anymore. This is a real thing that happens, I have seen players and their characters do this.

Players have enough agency that they can actually get away with this to some degree too. In every surface settlement but Guldorand, they can ban whoever they want from being in the city. And what happens in one settlement doesn't stay in that settlement. There's instances where settlements will ban characters for things they did elsewhere.

Personally I'd like to see the entire settlement system revamped, or even removed from Guldorand and Cordor. So in big area hubs anyone can come in and RP. Or even just remove Harper voting. Harpers are always going to want to try and put the best choice candidate in power, it's no fault of their own. It just leads to the problem becoming worse because that makes it hard for sketchy people to come in and do stuff. (Although another part of THAT problem is those are usually new characters who don't even RP in a city or with people before trying to win an election, and then roll soon after, not even trying again.)

It's led to the big conflicts being surface vs underdark, which is really boring. The only big player hubs with overarching rules are Guldorand and Andunor. I think Cordor should have its own version of the Guldorand Charter. I'd like to see more possibility for conflict on the surface, not having to rely on the underdark.

And to some degree the playerbase itself is at fault for this. Because rather than trying to get a scene going somewhere, people mass roll their characters when there's pushback. It's really tough trying to get a scene for criminal/shady characters if everyone rolls their characters when they're caught. Month long story arcs don't leave a lasting impact, they don't leave places inhabited. I've said before that antagonists shouldn't be forced to roll their characters when they're caught, which is definitely something people try to do to them. But at the same time, people could spend more effort to try and get RP going elsewhere.

But I guess the question remains, if people know you are an antagonist and ban you from going into cities or RPing around them, does it matter if you're setting up shop elsewhere? What are you actually going to be doing? Maybe the problem is self-feeding, where antagonists get sick of trying to get RP to happen and roll, which leads to more antagonists having nowhere to go.



TLDR: The "midwits" as Marsi puts it are able to make everything a safe space. Take away player agency that allows people to remove people from places, even the playing field so antagonists are able to thrive more on the surface. Make Cordor and Guldorand no longer settlements.

Rolling characters and its implication is a big dilemma. On one hand it provides players with a drive to start anew, keeping the server "fresh" and helping to accomodate the numerous mechanical changes and updates that happen constantly.

On the other hand, there are many arguments to be voiced about how this "rolling culture" is harmful to the storytelling aspect of the game.

From experience, I can say "high impact PCs" are greatly discouraged from being engaged with the world long-term, as population landscapes shift extremely fast. For example, its quite draining to maintain a healthy faction when you /know/ 9 out of 10 of the new recruits you vet will be rolled the very moment they hit 26 (at worst), or by the time the next big rebalance update hits (at best).

It feels like the system leaves very little room for deep character development, and even less for story development.

During my short term as an upper-ranking settlement official I'd had plenty of nudges by the antagonist PC players to make stories happen, and I have to admit all of these attempts were /good/ and very well thought out. But, all came with a bitter feeling that I am the only one on the receiving end, and all of my IC friends were either gone already, or were on the fast track to burnout/rolling, or their players were jaded enough to have a completely passive predesposition to everything story related. Very soon I ended up feeling sort of "guilty" for not being able to make stories happen for my settlement, leading to a 6month+ burnout break and my eventual stepping down from the position.

This is something I've also noticed and felt pretty hard. My characters tend to be longer lasting as their stories grow and go through different phases. It's really disappointing trying to lead a faction or get things going, only for everyone to roll 1 month later. It's sort of depressing actually because now I need to start from square 1 again.

I don't think more DM events is the solution though. One of the underlying problems about story engagement is still there, and it's the playerbase itself that makes it challenging to work with.

Also, regarding settlement leadership changing. There's another factor as to why settlements frequently change leaders. It's because the position is horrible, players are unreasonable and DEMAND attention. It turns into a real job. A lot of people go into it thinking it'd be fun, but then are met with a time sink where people DEMAND their time and get really mean if you don't give it to them. If you're not available for every single timezone, people will flip out at how you're never around. Most governments try to have multiple people working for it that people could go to, but a lot of people insist on speaking only to the leader.

re: sorrow we trust
i get you're joking here. potm does something like this, the dungeons are very hard and require very careful coordination, and dying in an epic dungeon can mean permanent closure (rolling) if you don't have an ooc group of friends who are also prepared, competent, and able to fish you out. you still see some flippancy about demons and so on, but they are regarded as a real threat. i don't know if it's necessarily a good answer though. dungeons that are hard just don't get visited (some of the spooky deep underdark/planar dungeons for instance)

A long time ago, one of PotM's devs boasted of making a dungeon SO HARD it would permakill players who tried to do it. So subsequently nobody ever did it. His ego won and he nerfed it because he wanted people to see the area he spent time on. "Player killer" dungeons aren't really good because if the risk far outweighs the reward nobody will do it. See: The deep wells, where you'll spend far more resources doing it than you'd get back, and where caster classes just can't even experience the content.

Arelith does have some challenging endgame content out in the sea. I think if people want challenging content they could go check that stuff out. Some of it is short and challenging which I prefer, I can't stand lengthy hours long dungeons.

[Amateur Hour]

Irongron's snuck in some massive narrative changes (like the world itself) but players have yet (imo) to catch on.

This is the one that I have run into the most that is jarring to setting. Some Players either don't know about the narrative changes or simply refuse to acknowledge them because its not 'how we do things'.

This is one of the things where I think the administrators and DMs need to make a decision. We are told on entry "Arelith is 3.0 Forgotten Realms with 3.5 elements and some other changes." A responsible roleplayer (which is probably who we should focus on here, because people who are purely mechanics-focused won't change unless absolutely forced) is going to brush up on their 3.0 Forgotten Realms lore as best they can and enter, but they have no idea what those other narrative changes are--other than the existence of the archipelago--so they are inherently not going to be compatible with the setting. The only way to become compatible is to either be told through out-of-character conversation with other players about what's going on or finding out in-game. The former is actively discouraged, and the latter is sporadic at best since other characters can only tell you what they know and what they are willing to share.

If there's things the player base is supposed to be roleplaying around that aren't part of the base 3.0 Forgotten Realms setting, it needs to be conveyed OOC somehow by the admin team or reasonably easy to learn in-game in a way that does not rely on character-to-character word of mouth.

[Royal Blood]

Yeah but the atmosphere is regularly disregarded and that's encouraged by the DMs too. So Arelith has no atmosphere in my opinion beyond what is made by players. And the atmosphere is all wishy washy and no one can seem to give definitive vision of like what they want from the team.

I like how another poster described it as the biggest detriment being the middle person whose played long enough to make everything around them duller a grey rock.

[-XXX-]

Irongron's snuck in some massive narrative changes (like the world itself) but players have yet (imo) to catch on.

This is the one that I have run into the most that is jarring to setting. Some Players either don't know about the narrative changes or simply refuse to acknowledge them because its not 'how we do things'.

This is one of the things where I think the administrators and DMs need to make a decision. We are told on entry "Arelith is 3.0 Forgotten Realms with 3.5 elements and some other changes."
...

I don't know if that was so much a reference to sourcebook material as it might've been alluding on Arelith setting specific IG lore and the stubborn refusal of some players to acknowledge it.

A prime example of this would be when certain groups openly plotted the assasination of Yusmena as a knee-jerk reaction to a Thayvian taking control of the Arcane Tower and reviewing the conduct guidelines applying to that place.

[Emotionaloverload]

Irongron's snuck in some massive narrative changes (like the world itself) but players have yet (imo) to catch on.

This is the one that I have run into the most that is jarring to setting. Some Players either don't know about the narrative changes or simply refuse to acknowledge them because its not 'how we do things'.

This is one of the things where I think the administrators and DMs need to make a decision. We are told on entry "Arelith is 3.0 Forgotten Realms with 3.5 elements and some other changes." A responsible roleplayer (which is probably who we should focus on here, because people who are purely mechanics-focused won't change unless absolutely forced) is going to brush up on their 3.0 Forgotten Realms lore as best they can and enter, but they have no idea what those other narrative changes are--other than the existence of the archipelago--so they are inherently not going to be compatible with the setting. The only way to become compatible is to either be told through out-of-character conversation with other players about what's going on or finding out in-game. The former is actively discouraged, and the latter is sporadic at best since other characters can only tell you what they know and what they are willing to share.

If there's things the player base is supposed to be roleplaying around that aren't part of the base 3.0 Forgotten Realms setting, it needs to be conveyed OOC somehow by the admin team or reasonably easy to learn in-game in a way that does not rely on character-to-character word of mouth.

Perhaps I didn't word mine clearly. Sorry about that. A lot of the 'narrative changes' have been course corrections to fall more in line with FR lore however Arelith has a lot of its own history which, in my experience, has led many players to be fiercely resistant to the course corrections because that isn't 'how its done' on Arelith. To the point where they simply won't tolerate anything outside of the 'norm'.

I agree with Party that a lot of this is because (of the history) of too much player agency that they do not want any changes that hinder the homebrew setting even if it would be better for the server as a whole or would align more with FR lore. That said, putting your foot down isn't going to go over well since players are so used to doing whatever they want for decades. On the few occasions that I have seen setting enforced, it was very negatively received. Even for super small things, like not ignoring yellowtext prompts.

So again, my only advice is lead by example and have fun. And if you're not having fun, don't let anyone make you feel bad about rolling, if that is what you choose. The game is about fun above all else. Fun for yourself, fun for others. Just have fun.
-S

[Duchess Says]

It's fine to pick up lore as you get more into the game or just learn the minimum of what you need to know. The wiki is all you need to play Arelith unless you want to be a loremaster giving history lectures or something.

It's fine if someone doesn't speak in an antiquated manner. to me, that often sounds stilted and fake and no better than a straightforward speaking voice. Yeah, try to avoid modern slang and referencing memes but you don't have to use King James English either.

From what I see there is a lot of great RP going on but it's not going to be all day, every day, every character in every settlement. But that's to be expected with a sandbox open 24/7/365 and with dozens of settlements, the quality ebbs and flows with player interest and other intangibles. But it's pretty great this place exists in the first place considering what "RP" is like on other games. I try and start with that attitude before complaining about how other players don't meet my possibly unrealistic expectations (and yes, I think a lot of expectations here are unrealistic).

[2d6 emotional damage]

It's fine to pick up lore as you get more into the game or just learn the minimum of what you need to know. The wiki is all you need to play Arelith unless you want to be a loremaster giving history lectures or something.

It's fine if someone doesn't speak in an antiquated manner. to me, that often sounds stilted and fake and no better than a straightforward speaking voice. Yeah, try to avoid modern slang and referencing memes but you don't have to use King James English either.

From what I see there is a lot of great RP going on but it's not going to be all day, every day, every character in every settlement. But that's to be expected with a sandbox open 24/7/365 and with dozens of settlements, the quality ebbs and flows with player interest and other intangibles. But it's pretty great this place exists in the first place considering what "RP" is like on other games. I try and start with that attitude before complaining about how other players don't meet my possibly unrealistic expectations (and yes, I think a lot of expectations here are unrealistic).

i don't think you read what i had to say, or what Marsi had to say.

We are not asking you to speak in middle english. the general askance, of I think everyone in this thread, is that we show the setting, the server, and our fellow players, a degree of respect. that means suspension of disbelief, roleplaying your wonder, awe, terror, or grief, in response to the fantastic and the tragic. That means treating your fellow players like they are real characters who aren't going to be gone in a week. Lending some seriousness to the roleplay, and not just being dismissive of everything that isn't your RP.

This is not unrealistic. this is basic, common decency which I think everyone here can agree should be the minimum standard. you don't need to be fully read up on the source material either. there needs to be a little less self-awareness in the narratives and a little more buying into the fantasy. the people who are bored of the high fantasy and treat the fantastic as ordinary, even mundane is what ruins it. you don't need to be well read on source material, a good writer (god knows i'm not) or even very socialable. these are not important for the good RP. what is important to the RP is the respect to the collective setting and to each other.

to add further,
that dismissive attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. there is a problem. there 'is' something complex at play here that should be addressed, but your refusal to engage with it on a meaningful level is exactly the kind of thing that is happening in game at a large scale that I feel is undermining the value of role play on the server.

[kingmaker]

It's fine to pick up lore as you get more into the game or just learn the minimum of what you need to know. The wiki is all you need to play Arelith unless you want to be a loremaster giving history lectures or something.

It's fine if someone doesn't speak in an antiquated manner. to me, that often sounds stilted and fake and no better than a straightforward speaking voice. Yeah, try to avoid modern slang and referencing memes but you don't have to use King James English either.

From what I see there is a lot of great RP going on but it's not going to be all day, every day, every character in every settlement. But that's to be expected with a sandbox open 24/7/365 and with dozens of settlements, the quality ebbs and flows with player interest and other intangibles. But it's pretty great this place exists in the first place considering what "RP" is like on other games. I try and start with that attitude before complaining about how other players don't meet my possibly unrealistic expectations (and yes, I think a lot of expectations here are unrealistic).

i don't think you read what i had to say, or what Marsi had to say.

We are not asking you to speak in middle english. the general askance, of I think everyone in this thread, is that we show the setting, the server, and our fellow players, a degree of respect. that means suspension of disbelief, roleplaying your wonder, awe, terror, or grief, in response to the fantastic and the tragic. That means treating your fellow players like they are real characters who aren't going to be gone in a week. Lending some seriousness to the roleplay, and not just being dismissive of everything that isn't your RP.

This is not unrealistic. this is basic, common decency which I think everyone here can agree should be the minimum standard. you don't need to be fully read up on the source material either. there needs to be a little less self-awareness in the narratives and a little more buying into the fantasy. the people who are bored of the high fantasy and treat the fantastic as ordinary, even mundane is what ruins it. you don't need to be well read on source material, a good writer (god knows i'm not) or even very socialable. these are not important for the good RP. what is important to the RP is the respect to the collective setting and to each other.

to add further,
that dismissive attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. there is a problem. there 'is' something complex at play here that should be addressed, but your refusal to engage with it on a meaningful level is exactly the kind of thing that is happening in game at a large scale that I feel is undermining the value of role play on the server.

An exceptionally good reply that highlights the exact - and I do mean exact - problem with current trends. This is a very good post, and I hope people take it with serious consideration.

[MissEvelyn]

It's fine to pick up lore as you get more into the game or just learn the minimum of what you need to know. The wiki is all you need to play Arelith unless you want to be a loremaster giving history lectures or something.

It's fine if someone doesn't speak in an antiquated manner. to me, that often sounds stilted and fake and no better than a straightforward speaking voice. Yeah, try to avoid modern slang and referencing memes but you don't have to use King James English either.

From what I see there is a lot of great RP going on but it's not going to be all day, every day, every character in every settlement. But that's to be expected with a sandbox open 24/7/365 and with dozens of settlements, the quality ebbs and flows with player interest and other intangibles. But it's pretty great this place exists in the first place considering what "RP" is like on other games. I try and start with that attitude before complaining about how other players don't meet my possibly unrealistic expectations (and yes, I think a lot of expectations here are unrealistic).

i don't think you read what i had to say, or what Marsi had to say.

We are not asking you to speak in middle english. the general askance, of I think everyone in this thread, is that we show the setting, the server, and our fellow players, a degree of respect. that means suspension of disbelief, roleplaying your wonder, awe, terror, or grief, in response to the fantastic and the tragic. That means treating your fellow players like they are real characters who aren't going to be gone in a week. Lending some seriousness to the roleplay, and not just being dismissive of everything that isn't your RP.

This is not unrealistic. this is basic, common decency which I think everyone here can agree should be the minimum standard. you don't need to be fully read up on the source material either. there needs to be a little less self-awareness in the narratives and a little more buying into the fantasy. the people who are bored of the high fantasy and treat the fantastic as ordinary, even mundane is what ruins it. you don't need to be well read on source material, a good writer (god knows i'm not) or even very socialable. these are not important for the good RP. what is important to the RP is the respect to the collective setting and to each other.

to add further,
that dismissive attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. there is a problem. there 'is' something complex at play here that should be addressed, but your refusal to engage with it on a meaningful level is exactly the kind of thing that is happening in game at a large scale that I feel is undermining the value of role play on the server.

I could not have put this better myself. Well said!

[Kriegos]

that means suspension of disbelief, roleplaying your wonder, awe, terror, or grief, in response to the fantastic and the tragic.

This. Exactly this. I was discussing this thread with a friend and they pointed out the number of times we have heard "I killed an ancient dragon, no big deal,” or "I just came back from the hells, but I do that all the time so whatever,” and how incredibly, absolutely jarring it is to have people take the fact that it was easy for them to click a few things to mean it must have been easy for the character.

Your martial character has the strength and skill to hit and do damage to a dragon? That takes a lot of effort. Have enough AC to avoid attacks? Lots of effort. Even summoning something strong enough to fight in your stead and warding it is a big deal. Firing off spells to then support that summon as it fights? You guessed it. That takes a lot of effort.

Higher level actions don’t mean they become easy because your numbers are bigger, it means you can push yourself to handle the monumental tasks to do the extraordinary!

Unless you’re playing someone very egotistical (fair play to those who are), then your character shouldn’t be nonchalant about doing these things. Nor should they treat it like a common thing if someone else accomplishes them.

Oh, in regard to the original post about what to do. My characters tend to decide anyone being that relaxed about death defying feats is simply lying. Rare is the person who can go to the hells and survive. Rarer still is the person that calls it easy, and usually without merit.

[Amateur Hour]

that means suspension of disbelief, roleplaying your wonder, awe, terror, or grief, in response to the fantastic and the tragic.

This. Exactly this. I was discussing this thread with a friend and they pointed out the number of times we have heard "I killed an ancient dragon, no big deal,” or "I just came back from the hells, but I do that all the time so whatever,” and how incredibly, absolutely jarring it is to have people take the fact that it was easy for them to click a few things to mean it must have been easy for the character.

I'll bite, then.

A lot of people on Arelith do fight ancient dragons literally daily. How should they present their activities? Should they just...never do it again after they've done it once, and count their lucky stars that they survived? Or should they simply lie or never ever talk about what they do on a daily basis?

[Curve]

They should have a little class and respect for the lore by showing those places some respect in their role play.

Personally? I don’t take my characters to places like the Abyss or the Hells that often unless I want to rp the kind of hardened monster who does that.

Often players want to have all the things and none of the drawbacks. They want to have a bad Snuggybear devil killer who also chills hard on the block making funny jokes.

I think the most important thing to do is ask yourself, “how would it really affect a person to see the horrors of the abyss” and act accordingly.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

On discord a few days ago I was saying how I'd love to play an infernalist lawyer in Guldorand. A few people were saying how cool that would be, how much they'd love to see it. But, those people who want to see it, would be there roleplaying with me in Guld? Because I can tell you right now, the group that usually runs Guld sure wouldn't be. I wouldn't be allowed in Cordor either. They'd add new laws specifically to keep me out. Same with Bendir, Myon, and probably Brogendenstein. So who do I roleplay with?

Here enters the Andunor problem.

For the entire time I've played here I've watched a cycle unfold where people trying to play antagonists can't find RP on the surface, so they end up going to Andunor because those are the only people who RP with them. And now they're forever branded as "ANDUNOR CHARACTER," and can't even RP with surfacers anymore. And so Andunor ends up absorbing all of the antagonists, transforming every conflict into surface vs Andunor.

Sencliff has suffered this a lot. People joke about it that they're Andunor's 4th district. In fact, I've seen people hold it against people that they spend time in Sencliff in the same way they hold it against people who are in Andunor.

I don't think you can fix it without a severe mindset change in the playerbase. A lot of players (including myself) are out there collecting information on people, for whatever ends we have. Good guys and Harpers are going to want to fight evil. Shady sorts are going to be doing it to make themselves look good/useful. I find this sort of thing a lot of fun. But the downside is- What do we do with all of it? What kind of game are we going to make for other players?

There's a lot of double standards, where people turn a blind eye to when their own friends do these things, but are ready to absolutely crucify people they hate. Maybe we should do less of the latter. Sure, call out that "wow that weirdo is going to literal Hell to play dice," but don't try to push for their removal from society. Let shady crime sorts exist. Let cultists exist. And roleplay with them. Don't ignore them and walk off, don't shut them out of every story. Because that's just as bad. It just perpetuates the thing where the only place they can RP is in Andunor.

[2d6 emotional damage]

that means suspension of disbelief, roleplaying your wonder, awe, terror, or grief, in response to the fantastic and the tragic.

This. Exactly this. I was discussing this thread with a friend and they pointed out the number of times we have heard "I killed an ancient dragon, no big deal,” or "I just came back from the hells, but I do that all the time so whatever,” and how incredibly, absolutely jarring it is to have people take the fact that it was easy for them to click a few things to mean it must have been easy for the character.

I'll bite, then.

A lot of people on Arelith do fight ancient dragons literally daily. How should they present their activities? Should they just...never do it again after they've done it once, and count their lucky stars that they survived? Or should they simply lie or never ever talk about what they do on a daily basis?

Curve hits the nail on the head. You just have a little class. I can't think of why you would boast or talk about killing dragons in a casual conversation. You might say, "I've traveled the Lowerdark before- it is very dangerous, but it is a venture I would face again." By keeping yourself humble, you respect that there is an inherent danger that poses lasting risk. Pain and exhaustion are things that are consequence to these adventures; as someone else said, they take effort. Even if you like weight lifting, you don't treat lifting carelessly. There's always spotters, safety equipment, and (at least the mature) are conscious of the risk of very severe injury. This is the same for mountain climbing or any kind of sport that puts you in danger. You did an amazing feat that took a lot of effort, treat it like that. In general practice, that might look like just being humble and not dwelling on how you killed x y z, but how you traveled to such location and how your character feels about going there. focus on the meaning behind it.

and lets be real here. do you really have very lengthy compelling conversations about how many times you killed Abazur? when i have gotten into big parties for a grind, we focus on where we're going, how we're going to cooperate together, and that's the interesting part. When you cheapen the setting by being light about it, you cheapen it for everyone. this is like being at a magic show and loudly telling everyone how the tricks were fake and how they were done. some people might not be annoyed, but most people aren't there for that. Just bare in mind your audience and explore nuance.


RE: Party in the forest
Yes. YES.
This goes into what we're saying here. Respect. It all boils down to basic respect for other people's roleplay and giving them a chance to roleplay with you. When people are chased out of a settlement for being a cultist or an infernalist or a whatever, they don't have anywhere to go; they don't have anyone to RP with anymore. And then we get into this whole, bizzare "guilt by association" trend as noted, where you are assumed guilty for being seen next to someone or visiting a location. What if you're a double agent? What if you're visiting Andunor looking for your kidnapped friend and trying to schmooze your way in?

This is insanely frustrating because it is so close to being good, but has been perverted by a sort of 'must win' mentality that urges players to find immediate results. No one wants to put time in to talk to someone and learn their story before exiling them. No one wants to give the warlock a chance to do something evil first. The responses are always radicalized to the most extreme reply, including ganks, exiles, or at worst, extremely venomous, toxic IC behavior to Other the other party. This radical behavior has strangled potential for unique, nuanced, and creative stories-- which is a detriment for everyone.

Personally, I believe this 'must win' mentality is also motivated by an OOC policing of the "correct" way a character should be played according to what they believe is the setting. The most venomous attacks I have seen in the past have always been coupled with OOC remarks ridiculing that person's role play as unbelievable; such as why would anyone tolerate red wizards in town when we can kill them, why would an elf ever kill another elf, and so on and so on. The answer to this is to stop trying to correct people, and start being curious in character. Ask them why they're doing this thing. Keep an open mind. Let the DMs handle setting enforcement. There's like thirty of them now. Send a PM if something seems weird and they should address it.

I really wish people would just be nice to each other and give each other a chance. it's okay to confront someone and challenge them IC, but there's a difference between being skeptical, hostile, and challenging, and totally driving them off the stage before they've done anything to warrant it. that's just disrespectful and telling them they aren't welcome.


edit:
this thread has been extremely cathartic and i hope it is for others as well.

[Amateur Hour]

This. Exactly this. I was discussing this thread with a friend and they pointed out the number of times we have heard "I killed an ancient dragon, no big deal,” or "I just came back from the hells, but I do that all the time so whatever,” and how incredibly, absolutely jarring it is to have people take the fact that it was easy for them to click a few things to mean it must have been easy for the character.

I'll bite, then.

A lot of people on Arelith do fight ancient dragons literally daily. How should they present their activities? Should they just...never do it again after they've done it once, and count their lucky stars that they survived? Or should they simply lie or never ever talk about what they do on a daily basis?

Curve hits the nail on the head. You just have a little class. I can't think of why you would boast or talk about killing dragons in a casual conversation.

Am I seriously the only person who asks or is asked "How was your day, did you do anything interesting?" in character? When every day the honest answer is "It was a good day; we killed a dragon. How was yours?" you get into a trap: either you have to downplay the Grand Dramatic Feats you performed (which isn't preserving the atmosphere where the feat is supposed to be big and important), or you play it up every time to make it sound like a Grand Dramatic Feat, which makes it not feel like one because you're doing it daily.

Even if you like weight lifting, you don't treat lifting carelessly. There's always spotters, safety equipment, and (at least the mature) are conscious of the risk of very severe injury. This is the same for mountain climbing or any kind of sport that puts you in danger.

That's true, but if you're a habitual weightlifter and your friend asks how your day was, you're going to mention that you went to the gym.

[Arienette]

My strategy for “treating danger with respect” is primarily by:

1. Quietly soloing when my character is out for epic loot.

2. When doing top tier content with a group, stressing IC how we should be careful and stick together and watch each other’s backs

3. Most importantly, when doing content with new characters and ESPECIALLY new players, sort of pretending that I am just as freaked out as them. So instead of “yeah yeah just jump into the Meat Fountain so we can kill those demons; I don’t have all day.” It is “This Meat Fountain still gives me nightmares. Make sure you close your eyes and hold your breath when you step through the portal. And recover yourself quickly on the other side, lest we are overwhelmed by demons.

[Aradin]

This is definitely a cathartic read and I'd like to echo the thoughts about keeping the wonder alive. Literally today we had a DM event in the Underdark in which a number of characters from Andunor confronted a fierce undead force led by a powerful commander and a lich. And there were a remarkable amount of flippant responses to it. "Ugh, another lich? What a nuisance. I had things to do today." I know many people want to be the swaggering, sunglasses-on hero, but when most of the crowd wasn't treating a lich with any fear, it was just, I don't know, it felt disappointing.

When it comes to characters being flippant about threats in the setting, like the endgame bosses that sure, yes, can be soloed, one thought always comes back to me. And this applies to PvP/player conflicts as well.

When you treat every enemy as a nuisance and not a threat, you don't make yourself look strong. If all your enemies are weaklings, then you're not impressive for defeating them because all you've done is beaten a bunch of weaklings. And what's impressive about that?
But if you treat the setting - and your fellow characters - with a healthy amount of fear and respect, then the conflicts of your story mean that much more. It doesn't mean anything to take down a nobody. But to take down a foe that you fear, who you respect as a genuine threat, who you've built up to be the big bad of your story, then your victory over them - or your fall at their hands - means so, so much more.
When you treat everything besides yourself as inconsequential, then all you've done is stop yourself from being able to achieve anything of consequence. In a world like Arelith you create your own stakes. You have to decide who the big bad guy of your story is. And if you don't treat your big bad as an actual threat, if you don't respect the setting and give the devils and dragons and liches the proper awe they deserve, if you don't respect other players enough to give their stories a chance, then you really just rob yourself of the chance to be part of a cool story.

[Hazard]

There's so many great takes in this thread. I love it.

These are the attitudes that need to be encouraged and propagated throughout the server culture.

[Distant Relation]

This is one of the most refreshing threads in these here forums.

I'm absolutely exhausted of the Team Good vs Team Evil monolithic RP that results from 'anyone who is remotely shady is clearly an agent of Andunor and if they aren't they're DOING IT WRONG and I'm going to make a post in the feedback forums about it'.

I'm disgusted every time world-shattering threats and actual, natural-order-defying-evil is treated with less gravitas by the average player than a quarterbreaker or a pickpocket.

I was extremely disappointed when, recently, my attempt to play a character who is a criminal, but also has respect for the Myon part of Team Good (because she herself is an elf, and understands the threat that is The Traitor) resulted not in curiosity, or a willingness to engage, but ooc accusations that I don't RP my character correctly.

I know for a fact that if it were not for the Guldorand Charter (blessed be IG), my character wouldn't have even have the space to breathe unless she immediately became the Andunor groupie everyone seems to want her to be. Many players express ooc frustration at the Charter 'stifling RP' but make no mistake, what they mean by this is they want to exile/pariah/gank every character that doesn't fit their narrow view of what their circle is.

If anything, we need MORE of the Guldorand Charter and Freeport around Arelith. We need to break people out of this lull where the only Evil they allow on surface is tax embezzlement (you know, how the only good reason to get elected Chancellor is so you can empty the coffers onto your private faction, and this never results in any consequence).

[LichBait]

Curve hits the nail on the head. You just have a little class. I can't think of why you would boast or talk about killing dragons in a casual conversation. You might say, "I've traveled the Lowerdark before- it is very dangerous, but it is a venture I would face again." By keeping yourself humble, you respect that there is an inherent danger that poses lasting risk. Pain and exhaustion are things that are consequence to these adventures; as someone else said, they take effort. Even if you like weight lifting, you don't treat lifting carelessly. There's always spotters, safety equipment, and (at least the mature) are conscious of the risk of very severe injury. This is the same for mountain climbing or any kind of sport that puts you in danger. You did an amazing feat that took a lot of effort, treat it like that. In general practice, that might look like just being humble and not dwelling on how you killed x y z, but how you traveled to such location and how your character feels about going there. focus on the meaning behind it.

and lets be real here. do you really have very lengthy compelling conversations about how many times you killed Abazur? when i have gotten into big parties for a grind, we focus on where we're going, how we're going to cooperate together, and that's the interesting part. When you cheapen the setting by being light about it, you cheapen it for everyone. this is like being at a magic show and loudly telling everyone how the tricks were fake and how they were done. some people might not be annoyed, but most people aren't there for that. Just bare in mind your audience and explore nuance.


RE: Party in the forest
Yes. YES.
This goes into what we're saying here. Respect. It all boils down to basic respect for other people's roleplay and giving them a chance to roleplay with you. When people are chased out of a settlement for being a cultist or an infernalist or a whatever, they don't have anywhere to go; they don't have anyone to RP with anymore. And then we get into this whole, bizzare "guilt by association" trend as noted, where you are assumed guilty for being seen next to someone or visiting a location. What if you're a double agent? What if you're visiting Andunor looking for your kidnapped friend and trying to schmooze your way in?

This is insanely frustrating because it is so close to being good, but has been perverted by a sort of 'must win' mentality that urges players to find immediate results. No one wants to put time in to talk to someone and learn their story before exiling them. No one wants to give the warlock a chance to do something evil first. The responses are always radicalized to the most extreme reply, including ganks, exiles, or at worst, extremely venomous, toxic IC behavior to Other the other party. This radical behavior has strangled potential for unique, nuanced, and creative stories-- which is a detriment for everyone.

Personally, I believe this 'must win' mentality is also motivated by an OOC policing of the "correct" way a character should be played according to what they believe is the setting. The most venomous attacks I have seen in the past have always been coupled with OOC remarks ridiculing that person's role play as unbelievable; such as why would anyone tolerate red wizards in town when we can kill them, why would an elf ever kill another elf, and so on and so on. The answer to this is to stop trying to correct people, and start being curious in character. Ask them why they're doing this thing. Keep an open mind. Let the DMs handle setting enforcement. There's like thirty of them now. Send a PM if something seems weird and they should address it.

I really wish people would just be nice to each other and give each other a chance. it's okay to confront someone and challenge them IC, but there's a difference between being skeptical, hostile, and challenging, and totally driving them off the stage before they've done anything to warrant it. that's just disrespectful and telling them they aren't welcome.


edit:
this thread has been extremely cathartic and i hope it is for others as well.

Hard agree with this.

[Vangrant1]

I think one of the problems on the Surface VS Underdark, isnt the big time villains like infernalists, Sharrans or even plain crazy chaotic killers are banished from the surface, is that doesnt allow small time villains to thrive like thieves, most of the time there isnt any tolerance one thief is banished in Cordor the following days they get exiled from Myon, Guldorand and all surface makes no sense. This is one of the reasons Evil became super secretive on Arelith Surface , because you risk getting exiled due to an group of allied RP characters got into conflict with you, I miss sometimes when we could create small lazy groups of evil characters and just be the local bandits or troublemakers without people fliping tables due to our RP. I think the solution is an approach of an neutral stand on Settlements laws enforcement , they are lawful in nature but allow articulation for neutral gameplay , allowing basic evil things like small time corruption or even negligence from rulers, but sadly for example on Cordor each time an evil guy succeds on this laws are changed even harder to prevent this.

[Vangrant1]

Curve hits the nail on the head. You just have a little class. I can't think of why you would boast or talk about killing dragons in a casual conversation. You might say, "I've traveled the Lowerdark before- it is very dangerous, but it is a venture I would face again." By keeping yourself humble, you respect that there is an inherent danger that poses lasting risk. Pain and exhaustion are things that are consequence to these adventures; as someone else said, they take effort. Even if you like weight lifting, you don't treat lifting carelessly. There's always spotters, safety equipment, and (at least the mature) are conscious of the risk of very severe injury. This is the same for mountain climbing or any kind of sport that puts you in danger. You did an amazing feat that took a lot of effort, treat it like that. In general practice, that might look like just being humble and not dwelling on how you killed x y z, but how you traveled to such location and how your character feels about going there. focus on the meaning behind it.

and lets be real here. do you really have very lengthy compelling conversations about how many times you killed Abazur? when i have gotten into big parties for a grind, we focus on where we're going, how we're going to cooperate together, and that's the interesting part. When you cheapen the setting by being light about it, you cheapen it for everyone. this is like being at a magic show and loudly telling everyone how the tricks were fake and how they were done. some people might not be annoyed, but most people aren't there for that. Just bare in mind your audience and explore nuance.


RE: Party in the forest
Yes. YES.
This goes into what we're saying here. Respect. It all boils down to basic respect for other people's roleplay and giving them a chance to roleplay with you. When people are chased out of a settlement for being a cultist or an infernalist or a whatever, they don't have anywhere to go; they don't have anyone to RP with anymore. And then we get into this whole, bizzare "guilt by association" trend as noted, where you are assumed guilty for being seen next to someone or visiting a location. What if you're a double agent? What if you're visiting Andunor looking for your kidnapped friend and trying to schmooze your way in?

This is insanely frustrating because it is so close to being good, but has been perverted by a sort of 'must win' mentality that urges players to find immediate results. No one wants to put time in to talk to someone and learn their story before exiling them. No one wants to give the warlock a chance to do something evil first. The responses are always radicalized to the most extreme reply, including ganks, exiles, or at worst, extremely venomous, toxic IC behavior to Other the other party. This radical behavior has strangled potential for unique, nuanced, and creative stories-- which is a detriment for everyone.

Personally, I believe this 'must win' mentality is also motivated by an OOC policing of the "correct" way a character should be played according to what they believe is the setting. The most venomous attacks I have seen in the past have always been coupled with OOC remarks ridiculing that person's role play as unbelievable; such as why would anyone tolerate red wizards in town when we can kill them, why would an elf ever kill another elf, and so on and so on. The answer to this is to stop trying to correct people, and start being curious in character. Ask them why they're doing this thing. Keep an open mind. Let the DMs handle setting enforcement. There's like thirty of them now. Send a PM if something seems weird and they should address it.

I really wish people would just be nice to each other and give each other a chance. it's okay to confront someone and challenge them IC, but there's a difference between being skeptical, hostile, and challenging, and totally driving them off the stage before they've done anything to warrant it. that's just disrespectful and telling them they aren't welcome.


edit:
this thread has been extremely cathartic and i hope it is for others as well.

I agree with what was written here, but I believe as well sometimes people just dont want to sacrifice the RP they build or envisioned for their character or even faction or group of friends, and become agressive defesive of their reasons, the problem its an intolerance for different RP of that of your character in my opinion most time OOC drama happens due to that. In other words an conflict of storytelling and perpectives of RP