Official Discord Should Have Dedicated PvP Channels

[Wings of Peace]

I've seen numerous groups that use voice chat for pvp and this has been the case for over a year. Whether that's supposed to be the case or not it's obviously the new normal and so imo the official community Discord should have mandatory vc channels added for approved raids that dms can sit in on. Imo the advantage of this is that evidence of vc activity in other discords can be treated more harshly. If a useful solution to Discord coordination isn't going to be produced I think this is the most pragmatic way forward.

[Spyre]

Voice channels are not an intended design for the Official Discord. The game is played through text and should remain as such - everything should be handled in the game world. Furthermore, voice channels do not have methods of logging things and would be hard to handle any case surrounding it if we were to still sit in them.

You are welcome to report OOC communications to coordinate raids and PvP. These do happen and should not. However, we cannot enforce every private server - we are not in them all. We can only enforce what we are in.

[Wings of Peace]

Voice channels are not an intended design for the Official Discord. The game is played through text and should remain as such - everything should be handled in the game world. Furthermore, voice channels do not have methods of logging things and would be hard to handle any case surrounding it if we were to still sit in them.

You are welcome to report OOC communications to coordinate raids and PvP. These do happen and should not. However, we cannot enforce every private server - we are not in them all. We can only enforce what we are in.

Would it not make evaluating reports easier in that any non-official community Discord channel could then be called into question based on the presence of vc channels alone? The only alternative seems like it would be the status quo where the problem remains widespread regardless of if it's discouraged.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Voice channels are not an intended design for the Official Discord. The game is played through text and should remain as such - everything should be handled in the game world. Furthermore, voice channels do not have methods of logging things and would be hard to handle any case surrounding it if we were to still sit in them.

You are welcome to report OOC communications to coordinate raids and PvP. These do happen and should not. However, we cannot enforce every private server - we are not in them all. We can only enforce what we are in.

Would it not make evaluating reports easier in that any non-official community Discord channel could then be called into question based on the presence of vc channels alone? The only alternative seems like it would be the status quo where the problem remains widespread regardless of if it's discouraged.

I don't think you can really moderate another channel for having a voice chat, because you can't prove it's being misused, or when.

On the other hand, I'll say this; not for everyday PvP, but for RAIDS, which require advanced notice and DM oversight, I'd encourage this requirement for one primary reason; you can only be in ONE voice channel at a time on discord (unless there's some witchcraft I don't know about).

This means, for example, that if you organize a Raid, a DM could hypothetically go sit in the raid voice channel, and require anyone who wanted to participate in the raid to go and sit in that voice channel. The voice channel should be set to automatically mute everyone who joins.

Why would you do this? Because if people are muted in a Raid voice chat, they aren't in any other voice chat on any other unmoderated discord server during the raid. Also, muted people can't scream/rage/rickroll at each other when the PvP is over - they have to switch to text where it can be screenshotted.

Mind you, this doesn't stop anyone from getting on skype or their phone and communicating in other ways. But it would stop people from using DISCORD to voice-chat during raids. The real problem here is that you're going to get stragglers, especially on the defending side, as people walk into the raid and go into full pacification murderhobo mode, who won't be in the voice chat, and ALSO that not everyone uses discord (although in 2022 I can't imagine playing online games without it, I'm aware plenty of people still don't.)

[Morgy]

I don’t think making attendance in a discord voice chat mandatory for raids is a good idea. Discord shouldn’t be essential to get involved in game.

The best method is to simply educate people why ooc coordination for pvp is disallowed and encourage reporting, especially with voice chat which allows unparalleled advantage like with DOTA/LoL. The penalties should be severe for using this advantage, which hopefully it is already.

[ElvenEdibles]

It's probably the least-provable thing you can report that I can think of

[Paint]

I don’t think making attendance in a discord voice chat mandatory for raids is a good idea. Discord shouldn’t be essential to get involved in game.

Not that I'm adding anything new to the conversation, but this is true. I honestly didn't even know about half of the discords when I joined Arelith, and while they're helpful for coordination, I think some people find the immersion of not having those ooc conversations on the other side preferable.

[Arienette]

I’m sorry, but what the heck is going on here?

It’s just casually accepted that people are using OOC voice comms while participating in their planned PvP?

I always understood that this is strictly and strongly forbidden.

How do you know that people are doing this? Do you have some evidence? You are just casually making the observation that there is mass cheating going on. And that’s some of the worst and… saddest sort of cheating I can thing of for this game. If people are so sweaty about their PvP that they are coordinating it through VC… there’s nothing I can say about them that won’t get me in trouble.

If this is true, I feel like it’s a much bigger issue that “we should accept it and make an official channel for it.”

[Distant Relation]

It’s just casually accepted that people are using OOC voice comms while participating in their planned PvP?

Yes.

It is accepted and assumed. It's one of those things that is technically forbidden but so hard to police and enforce that it will fly under the radar every time.

I've sat in one of these voice channels before, obviously in an unofficial faction discord, and what I heard there is the reason I refuse to join voice chats in Arelith discords anymore.

"X is their healer, get her first."
"I'll count down to engage, drop your AoEs at the same time."
and of course, metagaming/ooc callouts as well
"Y just appeared on the server list, scry her to see if she's alone"

Its utterly unprovable, there's no logs, and the only way there will be consequences is if one of the people involved messes up by talking about it in-game (like over tells) or on the official discord.

[Archnon]

It's probably the least-provable thing you can report that I can think of

This .... Sometimes people cheat, and you can't prove it, and you can't catch them, and you just have to step back and realize it is a game and you are responsible for finding your fun and avoiding people you disagree with. It is lamentable and a shame that people do this, but official avenues just justify its use. It isn't allowed because it is immersion breaking, not because it gives an unfair advantage. Eliminating the unfair advantage still leaves the problem of immersion breaking.

[Definately Not A Mimic]

Being in a voice chat gives a huge unfair advantage over those that follow the rules of the server and actually attempt to not metagame for a win.

I personally hate being around a group who is clearly voice chatting as they do next to no rp, are slow to answer, are distracted and flat make you feel like you're soloing even with people. Perhaps its just me but I can't text rp if I'm speaking out loud, my goofy self would end up typing what I was saying.

But using it during pvp is different than just hanging out chatting on a grind. During pvp you can coordinate faster, plan easier and in silence that can't be over heard in the game, respond faster, shout warnings faster than having to stop your clicking to type out a sentence ic. It is very clearly an advantage and should be punished if found out and proven.

[Tabby]

I can only agree on this, vc is bad RP.
And sometimes you really feel other people are elsewhere IG, when you having a conversation.
Mostly i feel its due to OCC discord channels.
Also why i hardly joins such channels.

When IG in arelith, players should "log out" of discord, if you tabbing in and out of game, you not really RPing are you?

Im afraid i know about vc been used, all the way back in 2018 at least.. i fear its more used today.
I have not been part of it, but i seen a private youtube video where such a thing has been used. Its sad. Worst of it, as someone writes, people tend write less, while being in a vc. And it hurts the surrounding, who could have been part of the RP.

[Curve]

Report it. If someone sends you a private video send that link to the DMs. That is one of the few times this scummy behavior can be proven.

[ImWithThisGuy]

I really don't understand why any of our players would consider joining a voice call with the intent to gain PVP advantage. I don't know how often it really happens, but even the thought of it happening once leaves a vile taste in my mouth.

This is a topic that I would consider one of my two greatest Arelith pet peeves, equal in level with the PG-13 rule. I really do try not to tell other players how to play, but frankly..

If you participate in voice calls for PVP advantage on Arelith, you're doing it wrong. You're in the wrong mindset, you're on the wrong server, you're even playing the wrong game; Nwn has some of the worst PvP mechanics you could ask for.

So stop, or leave.

There are better avenues for interesting and fun PvP encounters that utilize active communication, if that's what you're after.

As for Arelith, these kinds of calls eventually make everyone the loser, including those in the call. They break every rule related to them, in spirit and in function. They are the worst form of escalation, because they can only be combated by other players following in suit. Soon everyone is voice calling around a text box. I hope everyone can see how damaging this can be.

They really have no place in Arelith, and can be compared to taking a nuclear weapon to a wedding. It's not just horribly out of place, but so rediculously overkill that it loses any potential merit or excuse someone might try to give it.

I don't know how harsh the punishments are, but with any real evidence, I should hope they are truly severe, and in my own opinion, would include a ban with a vault wipe.

Honestly, these calls are so selfish and damaging to the community.. Please, please don't EVER participate in these calls, no matter how small or simple people make them out to be. Even in some innocent OOC idle chat calls, which In themselves are no big deal, can instantly and irreversibly be weaponized; Even on accident. I'm not against voice calls in general, but would still suggest people approach them with caution. If you are in any area that PvP might happen for any reason, consider dropping it.

Further, If you see people planning, promoting, or seriously suggesting the use of such calls, report it. Get screenshots, or witnesses, or whatever evidence you can. That's really the only thing we can do against this kind of behavior, and it's in our collective interest that we do it.

[LichBait]

This kind of stuff definitely has no place here. You can sort of tell when its occurring, but not conclusively. Even when the pattern is kind of established enough to rule against these people, the damage they do to stories b/c of their must-win mentality is usually so far out of hand it kills everyone's desire to play.

The people that do this are the worst and have no place on an RP server.

[Amateur Hour]

I really don't understand why any of our players would consider joining a voice call with the intent to gain PVP advantage. I don't know how often it really happens, but even the thought of it happening once leaves a vile taste in my mouth.

It's for mechanical advantage, plain and simple. It's obnoxious and mean-spirited, but people who want mechanical advantage will do what it takes to get it.

[Arienette]

I really don't understand why any of our players would consider joining a voice call with the intent to gain PVP advantage. I don't know how often it really happens, but even the thought of it happening once leaves a vile taste in my mouth.

This is a topic that I would consider one of my two greatest Arelith pet peeves, equal in level with the PG-13 rule. I really do try not to tell other players how to play, but frankly..

If you participate in voice calls for PVP advantage on Arelith, you're doing it wrong. You're in the wrong mindset, you're on the wrong server, you're even playing the wrong game; Nwn has some of the worst PvP mechanics you could ask for.

So stop, or leave.

There are better avenues for interesting and fun PvP encounters that utilize active communication, if that's what you're after.

As for Arelith, these kinds of calls eventually make everyone the loser, including those in the call. They break every rule related to them, in spirit and in function. They are the worst form of escalation, because they can only be combated by other players following in suit. Soon everyone is voice calling around a text box. I hope everyone can see how damaging this can be.

They really have no place in Arelith, and can be compared to taking a nuclear weapon to a wedding. It's not just horribly out of place, but so rediculously overkill that it loses any potential merit or excuse someone might try to give it.

I don't know how harsh the punishments are, but with any real evidence, I should hope they are truly severe, and in my own opinion, would include a ban with a vault wipe.

Honestly, these calls are so selfish and damaging to the community.. Please, please don't EVER participate in these calls, no matter how small or simple people make them out to be. Even in some innocent OOC idle chat calls, which In themselves are no big deal, can instantly and irreversibly be weaponized; Even on accident. I'm not against voice calls in general, but would still suggest people approach them with caution. If you are in any area that PvP might happen for any reason, consider dropping it.

Further, If you see people planning, promoting, or seriously suggesting the use of such calls, report it. Get screenshots, or witnesses, or whatever evidence you can. That's really the only thing we can do against this kind of behavior, and it's in our collective interest that we do it.

I agree VERY strongly with this.

[AskRyze]

Okay so I'm going to open with a controversial opinion here.

The best groups that skirmish and practice, have an established game plan IC? They don't need voice comms to win. This is due to a number of factors:

• Practice matters. Knowing what to do when the other guy turns red and the spells start flying - to the point where you don't have to think before your fingers are on they F-keys - solves for a lot of issues. If you know what you're doing, independent of whoever you're rolling with at the time, then you'll come out on top if the rest of your group is at least competent.
• Player skill trumps character skill. The fact of the matter is that this is a video game, and when you play a video game your hands make the pixels move around on the screen. In a world where everyone's level 30 and has good gear, the thing really differentiating players is heirarchy of builds and the man behind the screen. And when the build is factored for? Sometimes the other guy just knows the game better than you. Maybe he knows a guy who really has the enchanting system under his thumb. Maybe she knows just how far behind that pillar she has to go in order to dip out of your LoS and hit the sneak button. Maybe he knows where to find the right reagents to get the perfect item crafted to optimize his strategy. Maybe she just has fast reactions to spellstrike you while you're casting Heal, disrupting the cast. It doesn't matter that your character has slain Abazur eight hundred times, if the player behind the screen isn't prepared to engage in PVP (Not hydrated, tired, maybe drunk, distracted, using a trackpad (sorry but that's a crippling handicap)) and isn't ready ingame (no gear, no consumables, no buffs, bad strategy) they're going to lose.
• Planning contingent conditions solves for callouts. Consider a group that has a strategy planned - "When I cast Disjunction on the ground, you start casting Word of Faith until they all stop moving. Someone else kills the obvious wizards dressed in robes. Clean up what's left when you're done. Don't split fire, focus down individual targets, follow this other person's lead and attack who they're attacking. If someone drops, this person will heal/resurrect them" - all gone over beforehand IC. If the group is practiced and is skilled then that's all they really need to succeed - just a little game plan, and people doing their jobs right.

Consider the following:
When was the last time your party made a game plan before walking up to the level 6 orog wandering around on the surface? Or did you just expect everyone to 'do their jobs right' and assume that you'd win?

What about the last major PVP you participated in - Were there planned objectives beyond 'kill them all/take X structure'? Were roles designated? Was there a chain of command, and a fallback commander in the event that one perished and was unable to be recovered or raised? Or, instead, did everyone just buff in treadstone and take a portal to whatever city you're going to, planning to wash over the village like a hungering tide of bodies?

When was the last time your swordmaster went to an arena with a trusted comrade to hone their secret techniques? Or your wizard test the measure of their enigmatic intellect against the incomprehensible power behind the Warlock's magic, for the better advancement of their own abilities?


What VC is, is the great equalizer. It brings people who don't have the practice and skill up to just-close-enough to compete by having real-time communication to account for a lack of individual player skill. It helps but not as much as people think it does, because it doesn't ultimately solve for a lack of practice and a lack of player skill - but it can sure as hell compensate for it.

I agree though, against people who have neither it's an overwhelming advantage that can't be solved for, and you can't exactly expect people with jobs to treat a 20 year old game like they're professional esports players. Ah, to be young again and have the time to play videogames all summer....

[ElvenEdibles]

Honestly I find the ban on voice chat to be a case of Arelith being slow to evolve in the face of new technology. I think there is also a divide between those who play Arelith to totally escape into the world and those who play Arelith as much for the RP and Progression as they do for the OOC socializing. IIRC chat rooms for Arelith used to be banned as well, now we have an official one.

[Xerah]

Voice chat has been around forever and it's not a resistance to new technology, it's frankly, absolutely, 100% UNNECESSARILY for what Arelith is supposed to be. Chat channels were never banned because of a resistance to new technology, it was because there was a previous wish to limit external communication.

Additionally, I wish people would take PVP less seriously and not dedicate so much time to discussing, planning, strategizing, etc. PVP tactics on the server. I know it's a game and people want to optimize, but it's just a bit unnecessary.

[MissEvelyn]

If you're using unfair advantages to PvP players on this server, then maybe consider that you might be at the bottom of the PvP food chain. NWN and Arelith were not built for PvP. This old game will never ever be eSports or anything remotely like that.

So for those who use voice chat to garner unfair advantages (not to mention the blatant disregard of roleplay), it shows poorly on your PvP resume. There are SO many games better suited for your playstyle out there. Arena games come to mind, like League of Legends, but even MMOs out there do PvP better.

Your victories don't make you winner. In fact, in the PvP world of gaming, you seem like a sore loser, who spends time preying on non-PvP honed players instead of playing real PvP games with real opponents who can actually meet your skill level.

In other words, why don't you pick on someone your own size? I.e. playing actual PvP games.

[Aren]

I, for one, PvP in total silence.
Darkness and deadly attack.

[Eyeliner]

I'm not going to say anyone who enjoys using it should stop, but why is it "100% needed" for Arelith? Just curious, are you talking on an administrative level or something because I don't think it's needed for players at all.

I know I absolutely do not want to get to know anyone here on a voice chat level and would never use it. It's just too personal or intimate for me and I like thinking of you all as abstract player names behind the characters I know and love/hate, I don't really want to know your personal lives nor share mine. Tells and light Discord use is all the OOC I need and even then it can get a little much.

[Xerah]

It was a typo, as the rest of the post doesn't make sense otherwise.

[Skibbles]

Any player normalizing such activity needs to find a different game to play. In such cases like this, it sounds like they need help finding something new.

Therefore I say ban them all, minimal appeals, and I have no shame in being very plain on the matter.