Surface EXP Cuts

[AstralUniverse]

People were never told "no dont circle grind" and instead other options were offered. Turns out these other options were slightly too good and needed to be toned down. Personally I dont understand how grinding is even related here. No matter what the EXP reward is, you can still grind more after you do your daily writs and get to lvl 30 faster. I dont see anything different now except that grinders and none grinders both equally get to level 30 a bit slower than before.

[MissEvelyn]

I'll echo the post above me about circle grinding and its negative effect on the server, even though I already said it a page ago in this thread, because I think it's the most important part of this discussion at this point.



As for the whole "RP starts at 30" debate, sorry guys, but the war is over. I know because I had fought it for three years before finally giving up about a year ago, with several threads explaining why x or y rule that made way for excessive pvp was going to push folks into the mindset that you gotta be 30 asap. Hell, the guy that inspired me to say that dms should be needed for pvp in certain areas where it makes sense that the setting would react to the aggressors ended up banned despite not breaking any rules, because let's face it the issue is in the pvp rules.

The irony is that some of the same people that are sitting here with defeated posts claiming surprise that this is where the server is now were also some of the ones that were calling me hyperbolic back when I was a warrior for the cause. Now I am just another guy who will make sure they get to 30 as fast as possible, and no amount of posts on how it should be is going to change that because the only thing that matters is how it is.

And now that the culture has shifted so far in that direction, it's ... well, I like to think nothing is impossible, but this is about as close as one can get without actually saying the I word. You slow down the leveling process too much at this point, and the population will only decrease over time. It doesn't matter that it used to be much slower, once people get used to driving a Porshe it's really hard to go back to a Honda. That's just human nature.

At the risk of sounding harsh, if people are leaving the server because the leveling has slowed down (despite still being lightning fast compared to older days) then perhaps it is for the better. This server might just not be suited for them, and we have to be okay with that. The Devs of Arelith need to be okay with having a narrow vision, one that attracts a certain type of roleplayers. If we broaden our scope too much, well, it leaves us with a server that does not know what it wants to achieve, because it is trying too hard to be too welcoming, at the expense of scope and gameplay.

Circle-grinding is a problem, I'm not going to pretend it's not. But this whole cut and dry black/white view that slow leveling = circle-grinding is anecdotal at best. It heavily varies from player to player.

And, you're right, it's a server policy and/or vision issue.
While admittedly it was draconian when DMs pulled you aside and docked you experience points for running, at least then the server vision was being enforced. We can agree that it was too much. But it was, in my humble opinion, better than allowing all and everyone to congregate here at the expense of the server's vision and health.

Irongron has stated that RP does not start at 30, that such a view is unhealthy for the masses. At the same time, IG has also acknowledged that games move at a much faster pace today than they did 10 and 15 years ago, and thus we have been given SO many tools that boost our experience gains and make leveling much faster. Adventuring XP, writs, more XP sources, better XP gains, ECL not affecting writs anymore. All these changes were made to accelerate leveling, in an effort to make the experience more enjoyable.

"RP starts at 30" is not a mindset that is healthy for any roleplay server, let alone one that prides itself on being a bastion of Roleplay. And equally, circle-grinding should not be an acceptable method of conduct on a roleplay server that values immersion.

Most of you probably don't remember the anti-circle grinding script that was put in place, but people hated it. It's interesting to me that so many people today speak out against circle-grinding, when back then people were begging devs to remove the script and thus bring back circle-grinding. Granted, back then we didn't have vast sources of experiences points that we do today. Perhaps re-enabling that script would help curb circle-grinders. I'd actually love to hear people's thoughts and reactions on this.

And to those saying, "But Eve, I don't have 10 hours to play every day!" Neither do I, and that's fine. An entire server should not be balanced around our schedule. Instead, we are the ones who must adapt to it. Accept that it will take us longer than the everyday players to reach level 30 - and that's fine! We can still roleplay and enjoy an immersive experience. We can still tell stories. We don't need to reach level 30 in a few weeks to enjoy the game. And if you think you do? Then perhaps Arelith isn't the right server for you

I put a heart, because I'm really not trying to be mean by saying this. If fast-paced grinding to max level is your thing - which is perfectly valid and fine to have that preference - then I would suggest some of the more faster servers.
I would really argue that Arelith already *is* a fast server. Compare it to Ravenloft, for example, and you'll see that Arelith moves at a breack-neck pace.
I really hate comparing Arelith and Ravenloft, as they're two separate, completely different experiences, so please take that comparison with a grain of salt.

--

If the Suggestion forum was open, I would suggest we add Learning as a skill, and those who take points in it gain experience points at a faster rate than those who don't. Those who want to level faster would be able to sacrifice up to 33 skill points, if they wanted to, in exchange for faster leveling, and the rest of us would be largely unaffected.


The tl;dr of this is, it's possible to enjoy roleplay and storytelling without seeing a number on a screen go up.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

People were never told "no dont circle grind" and instead other options were offered. Turns out these other options were slightly too good and needed to be toned down. Personally I dont understand how grinding is even related here. No matter what the EXP reward is, you can still grind more after you do your daily writs and get to lvl 30 faster. I dont see anything different now except that grinders and none grinders both equally get to level 30 a bit slower than before.

I don't think I can explain it any better than has been explained already, but I will give it a shot. For the last year or so, there haven't really been circle grinders, because no one needed to. That was a good thing, because back when circle grinding was a thing you could spend time gathering a group to go to dungeon x only to find a group of circle grinders there not only insistent on that being their dungeon but actually itching to pvp over it. I'm not saying it happened all the time, or was an overwhelming issue, but it was frequent enough where I had it happen well over a dozen times over the course of three years. Thats how things used to be on the old arena servers, where people would claim dungeons as their own and pvp anyone who came near it. Fine for that sort of thing, but I don't really consider it a healthy way to be on what's supposed to be a rp server.

Now I don't give two fig newtons on how people decide to level, or really how fast they go. In most instances it doesn't affect me at all, save perhaps pushing me to want to level fast too. But when it comes to people hogging a dungeon for hours on end, especially on a weekend where its super crowded already, that affects everyone who wants to use that dungeon for a one time run. Never running into that this past year has been a blessing, perhaps the one good aspect of pushing the end writ xp to the levels it was. But as that xp slowly gets chipped away at, bringing us back to a year-ish so or go, its now becoming more time effective again to just circle grind over doing three writs a day. Does that mean I am going to start circle grinding? Hell no, I would rather bang my face against the wall a dozen times. But it does mean that others will.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

At the risk of sounding harsh, if people are leaving the server because the leveling has slowed down (despite still being lightning fast compared to older days) then perhaps it is for the better.

I quoted this part because it probably needs a bit more explanation of what I mean. But I do want to touch on the rest of your post because really, it makes no sense. There is no one play style that defines arelith. Its biggest strength, at least from a numbers side, is that it caters to all sorts of play styles. Execution wise it may also be its biggest weakness. If you want to bang out character after character and run through the pve content as fast as you can, arelith is for you. If you want to form a mega pvp group and play the game in a constant state of conflict, arelith is for you. If you want to sit around roleplaying around the fire bowl in Cordor, Arelith is for you. No one style has a claim to the server, and the fact that you are saying it does means maybe arelith is actually not for you.

Ironically, two years ago I would have been on your side. I fought for rule changes to make the server more rp focused then it is, to make the setting matter more than the need to exact player pvp justice on someone who slighted them somewhere along the line. I lost, and I accepted that and began to just try to enjoy arelith for what it is. But that also means that I now rush to 30 to make sure I'm not just bait. I suppose you just glossed over that bit.

But as to the part I think needed further explanation. I don't think people will say "leveling is too slow, I quit!". I think they will play their level 30s for longer periods of time, and then when they get bored just move on to other things instead of going through the process again. Over time, that will decrease the population. I get the sense that you think that would be a good thing, and who knows, maybe it is. But it doesn't make the statement any less true.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

The speed of leveling is not what created the "Rp after 30" meme. There will be people that grind away until they reach such if you slow it down even more who say this.

I am like never lvl 30 so i appreciate/understand leveling along the way of RP. But I feel we are ignoring/not listening/ being a bit daft to not realize the realities that make people experience/feel this.

It is always conflict related RP that makes people feel this way (even if you can have fun under lvl 30 pvp)

We balance around PvP lvl 30+ (lvl 30 AND FULLY GEARED) - this sends a very strong message when we get told to not take 'must have skills that you should never do a build without ever, until your last 3 levels at epic'. Along with saves on gear, etc. Reality most PvP isnt fully geared lvl 30s, but the standard is set here.

Skills vs skill, combat relevance
- trying to do long term disguise rp as an underlevel character when you got epics wondering around to spot you out is risky business that makes new players feel their lack of level is different
- all tactical decision in sailing are completely mute if your sail is over 30 points lower than the other crew since every maneuver is sail vs sail. The difference between a lvl 20 not full geared character and a lvl 30 sailling gear character is immensely massive. This makes you feel it even on PvE
- stealthing around so you can spy stuff. Like have fun being a lvl 15 assassin when your contracts are for lvl 30 people. You cant even poison their food for a 5% roll because your stealth/disguise won't be high enough
- RP as a skilled swordsman? your skil will feel non existent if you got to a tournament under level 30.

PvE end game
-Lots of end game materials, though usable under lvl 20, kind of need lvl 20 + crews to reliably get
-all the other above factors, makes players who come from MMORPGs have this assumption that the 'real game' start at max lvl as you do dungeon raids at that lvl in other games etc. Arelith doestn require everyone to be maxed out for dungeon raids, but the feeling of needing to be complete before doing it.

There are also players who fall under the aboved mentioned categories who simply do not enjoy adventuring RP. They enjoy tavern, intrigue, player conflict, but find RP during a dungeon to be annoying and unrealistically as they are too busy killing orcs to be talking. When you have done all of arelith content several times over, the lvl 1 to 30 process is just a roadblock for you and your lvl 30 concept. I am not there, lots of stuff I have done, but I wanted to explain why people feel this way. Its a disparity between people with more time and those with less. Those with more have already experience all the pve content multiple times over and it's not different doing a writ than it is to circle grind to them.

I don't agree with the meme, but people keep asking 'where it comes from'. It comes from lots of small experiences adding up across lots of players. I prefer adventuring RP

------------------------------------


That being said, i kind of like how we have increased RP ticks and am glad we would choose to reduce writs gains over RP gains (since those gains also apply when you go through a dungeon at a slower pace and roleplay along the way).

[xf1313]

There are good roles for low level rp, commoner, for one, I can enjoy that at lv 3-10, no issues.

But for characters that is going to face danger? My pirate met two guys just say leave or we kill you and they killed me while I was talking. How does that work for RP? Not to mention a lot more concepts need skill point support.

I do wish to see the adventure xp gets tuned back up a bit, or like someone suggested, let us choose if we want professional rewards or freelancer rewards. Doing low lv is not working because that exp rewards pale before freelancer ‘s writ...by a lot!

[ElevenOne]

I believe the main reason now we are leveling up "fast" is mainly the player classes power have raised a lot, while the low level / medium level content difficulty has been static in difficulty.

1) Newer classes are very strong.
2) Older classes has been buffed accordingly.
3) Almost all classes now have key powers based on a cooldown, rather than being limited per rest.
4) Now we even got weapon finesse free, allowing grabing more useful feats 3 levels earlier for most of the dexers.
5) Healing methods are more available than ever.
6) We even have now infinite skleens, for the price of a couple writs rewards.
7) Summons are very strong compared to enemies power.

Also, adding the following:

A) Player knowledge about the mechanics / Arelith has increased a lot, doing stuff in a more optimal way. I even have seen a lot of maps being shared in discord public servers, which years ago a map was something not even available publicly.
B) A lot of coordination seems to be done outside of the server. Every time I see less and less people with a letter on the floor with "looking for a party".
C) DM events also do add experience, and somehow (And I love it) I managed to randomly experience more this year than ever.

And on top of everything, months ago we got writ experience increased.

-----------------------------

Every time I see one of these posts, the first thing I wonder is.. What is exactly fast leveling? How much time are we supposed to take to reach level 30? Is it bad we are reaching level 30 "so fast"?

I'm not sure lowering writ rewards would deter someone to grind level 26 to roll for an award, at the end of the day, for someone who wants to grind, it will just add some time to run dungeons over and over to compensate for the lower writ reward, so sadly this only negatively impacts people who don't have much time available per day to play / level up.

-------------------------

Do RP start at level 30? Not really, but in a game based on a D20, having a higher level do add a lot in the player favor, and more than ever the server did became more PVP focused than being RP.
Everything not optimized for PVP is being looked as a "Meme build".

[AstralUniverse]

For the last year or so, there haven't really been circle grinders, because no one needed to.

Okay. What defines the 'need' to grind? you finish your daily writs and you still have time to play and you want to reach level 30 asap so you can go grind. How is the number of exp you get for the writ reward even a factor here?

People didnt need to grind back then and they still dont really need to, now. Nothing changed, except the total amount of time taken to reach 30.

...it was frequent enough where I had it happen well over a dozen times over the course of three years

Havent happened to me at all. In 100% of the cases I ran into a circle grinding party and told them I have a writ they always left the place for me, or asked me to join them, or even instantly sent me a party invite as soon as I entered their line of sight (I guess they were being considerate about the kill credits for my potential writ before I even engaged in RP).

Never running into that this past year has been a blessing

Again, not my experience. People still grind because nothing prevented them from leveling as fast as possible to 30 in the past years with huge inflated writ rewards. They would simply finish their daily writs and proceed to circle grind all the same as they will now and I havent read one solid logical reason for why it's not the case. Like, sure, they wouldnt need to grind *as much* because the writs give more exp, but they would just get to 26 faster and roll only to start a new character so really, grinding has nothing(!!!) to do with it. people just like to get the quickest buck for their time so they complain about lower rewards. That's all.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I don't know, Astral. Maybe the dungeons I choose are different than the ones you choose. But I used to go to the Sibayad orcs very rarely because every time i did there were multiple groups bumping into each other. Now I do the writs and I never run into anyone save the group I am with. The mound was another big one, I had gotten into pvp in that dungeon twice, both times because a group of four didn't want to take me along but insisted I leave. The pirates on the coast there used to be people grinding in the high 1's early 10s all the time, ect ect ect. But just because your experience is different, which I take you at your word it has been, doesn't mean that everyone else is full of shit.

Look, I am not saying shaving some xp off the top of writs is a bad thing. I was in the camp that voted for a slower leveling system. We lost, and probably by a lot more then that poll said. But if it gets to the point where I am running into circle grinders again, or I feel I have to grind to keep up (and despite my personal feelings about the pace of leveling I will be compelled to try and keep up and I doubt I am the only person that thinks this way) I'm not going to be very keen on rolling up new characters.

I also believe that if you are going to slow things down, it needs to be in the epics, not 1-20. pre epic you are just a gnat wandering around the world, and with a level spread this large it really should be fast to close the gap slow to finish.

[xf1313]

For the last year or so, there haven't really been circle grinders, because no one needed to.

Okay. What defines the 'need' to grind? you finish your daily writs and you still have time to play and you want to reach level 30 asap so you can go grind. How is the number of exp you get for the writ reward even a factor here?

People didnt need to grind back then and they still dont really need to, now. Nothing changed, except the total amount of time taken to reach 30.

But people do need to grind, just start a new character in Skal or UD, finish the starting quest, then you find your self at lv4, and the next writs are for lv 7ish. When I begged for people to help (in UD), other people kindly pointed out I should grind and that is what they all did at low lv.

Sure, at lv 20 ish there are more options, but the lack of transitions for low lv characters has been ignored

[Kalopsia]

People mentioned that you have to be level 30 to succeed at opposed rolls, contracts and the like, and now I find myself wondering whether that isn't just because everyone is leveling so quickly. If it took longer to achieve level 30 you'd likely come across and get to interact with more people on their way there, which in turn partially negates the reasons for wanting to be max level in the first place.

That said, I think it would be good game design to give low level characters a boost in certain skill checks like disguise and perhaps sail. We've done something similar for NPC conversation checks before, I don't see why this couldn't be expanded to make certain concepts more viable at low levels.

TDLR: Should today's level allocation be used to argument against an approach that would eventually flatten the curve and make mid levels more meaningful?

[Floral Shoppe]

I am not sure what "meaningful" would entail. I don't see a way to make level 15 play enticing when you're surrounded by 30s everywhere and they have tons of things they can do but you can't and there's nothing you can do that they can't do.

I am pretty convinced the only way to make low and mid level play enticing is to have exclusive content for that range so when you level out of it you feel like you're giving something up. We have this in Skal and it's successful. People miss Skal when they leave and roll another character to go back and enjoy the low level play there. But low level play on the real island isn't the same, all levels mix together everywhere so if you're not in the epics yet you're constantly reminded of that. You can mechanically slow down leveling and shame people who do it too fast but where's the positive in lingering in the teens, especially when every town square is full of characters better than yours in every way? I see this push to make those levels meaningful but I don't feel like they are when I'm there (outside Skal)... I just feel pressure to achieve and a little lonely like I'm missing the party.

[xf1313]

Floral has made a excellent point here, exactly that.

And with how weak some of the rp builds are, low lv is hard

The massive number of OP pvp build who love to kill on sight is not helping

It is hard for them lv 30 to stay and listen to minor things when they have messages every five minutes and epic runs to worry about. A place for lower levels to interact can be nice (that can be set up in game, quite easily, where lower levels all go to same gatherings when looking for rp or group).

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

People mentioned that you have to be level 30 to succeed at opposed rolls, contracts and the like, and now I find myself wondering whether that isn't just because everyone is leveling so quickly. If it took longer to achieve level 30 you'd likely come across and get to interact with more people on their way there, which in turn partially negates the reasons for wanting to be max level in the first place.

That said, I think it would be good game design to give low level characters a boost in certain skill checks like disguise and perhaps sail. We've done something similar for NPC conversation checks before, I don't see why this couldn't be expanded to make certain concepts more viable at low levels.

TDLR: Should today's level allocation be used to argument against an approach that would eventually flatten the curve and make mid levels more meaningful?

When you had slower leveling, you just had epics hanging around longer. I meet way more new characters these days than ever. The amount of non epics isn't a issue. We gotblots of those constantly. It's that people have lvl 30 concepts
They have concepts of people who never get outed in their disguise and even if only 5% of player base is lvl 30 at any given time, you only need to meet one to end you. And you will eventually.

Players don't want to have their perceived plots ended prematurely. This is a player issue more than server issue
They want to have as much autonomy as possible. Slowing down Lvling won't change that.

This recent writ change wasn't end of world cause we have pretty good rpr exp now.

But the idea that things would get fixed if we slowed it more is a bit off.

Like if Mr. Smith gets to 30 in 1 week and I do it's in six months and you make Mr. Smith take 4 weeks then I take 2 years (long as I probably won't play steady for 2 years and will most likely not even reach 30).

Mr Smith isn't going to feel the weight of using to rp more before 30. I am going to feel the weight of never reaching it.

[Security_Blanket]

There seems to be a little bit of a disconnect between the players that have been around for so many years, they remember how slow leveling used to be, and those that joined later and experienced faster leveling (that may have been a factor in them sticking around.) As far as I can tell, everything seems to be getting a boost. Items have more properties than they used to, we're moving away from any sense of mundane and becoming increasingly magic heavy, all new spawns in dungeons are stronger, especially when compared to existing dungeons. My point is, Arelith is constantly adapting, constantly changing, holding on to the memory of how fast leveling used to be compared to now is entirely irrelevant, the Arelith of today is vastly different from the Arelith of last year and the ten years before that.

You guys added something that made it easier for everyone to level, awesome. There are players that took advantage of a system to achieve more rewards in another system you created (Epic Sacrifice), that sucks, but it's not at all unexpected. Expect to be taken advantage of and you'll never be disappointed. By adding something that helped majority of players in general then taking it away because of a couple bad apples doesn't seem at all fair. Regardless of anyone's personal opinions on how fast leveling should be or if you can or can't RP effectively at all levels, everyone has their playstyles and preference.

The most sound option I've heard thus far is to just put a timer on how many times a player can roll a character, 3 months, 6 months, whatever, just don't penalize the people that did nothing wrong.

[Im Batman]

The point may be a little bit over your head, but if you've only been playing as long as your forum sign-up date then it's not your fault. If you check out Shadowy and mine's forum sign-up date, we come from an era where writs didn't even exist. Leveling is exponentially faster than it used to be - I occasionally comment about never having had a character over level 24 or having rolled a character, but that's because I spend my extremely limited playtime talking rather than killing.

Old does not have to equal condescending. A person that joined yesterday has as much to bring to the table as people have been here for years. This is a forum for feed back. the date someone joined the forums is not relevant, and there is no reason to bring it up when responding to someone. Its great you have been here a long time, so have I. I am proud of that, but things and opinions change. Just look at the server on a daily basis.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

What makes this server fun is leveling doesn't take absolutely forever. Please don't make it take an actual year to hit 30. I like that this server lets people make characters and gear up relatively easily. It really sucks when the game world is dominated by kitted out max level characters if that becomes a difficult goalpost to reach.

[Itikar]

I agree with those who say that a substantial amount of activities and interactions are gated to max level. I do not even believe this is something that the developers have the power to change in a significant way this aspect, short of devising a system that restricts maximum level only to a very small subset of the population, such as the case of some servers.

As long as most characters can achieve level 30 in a relatively short time frame, i.e. a few months at maximum, level 30 will remain the point to get to, in order to interact with the majority of other established player characters. No way around that.

There is no issue with some small adjustments to writs, by all means, even more so on Skal, but I think that the right solution is to encourage players to remain at a lower level and reduce the handicaps, not making leveling more difficult. That will make people less rushed about leveling up. Besides the issue of being pvped by opponents you cannot have any hope against will remain.

As for award farming, it can benefit more from a more surgical solution, such as allowing to get a major or greater award once a month per account, or something like that. In truth, though, in my experience farming awards was quite pleasant, and even if I had characters with a goal and an expiration date they left a small mark on the world still, and left me quite fond roleplay memories, in addition to making me try both the surface and Skal which I would not have touched otherwise. So, I disagree that award farmers are exclusively a negative, there are benefits too, just make a few adjustments if there are some dynamics that do not work

[AstralUniverse]

What makes this server fun is leveling doesn't take absolutely forever. Please don't make it take an actual year to hit 30. I like that this server lets people make characters and gear up relatively easily. It really sucks when the game world is dominated by kitted out max level characters if that becomes a difficult goalpost to reach.

It's just gonna take a month instead of a week and a half. We're just looking for the fine tuning between too many winged characters and too much stagnation.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

It's just gonna take a month instead of a week and a half. We're just looking for the fine tuning between too many winged characters and too much stagnation.

If this is the entirety of the reasoning, and I'm hoping it's not and you got it wrong because it has a really simple fix, switch the subraces that need to be rare over to an application process and make the rewards increased level starts and other small things like skill point bumps. And when someone comes a long and say's "But that's too much work for the dms!" I will gladly spend a few hours designing a process that will guarantee no dm spends more then 45 minutes a week reviewing applications.

I mean, seriously, I really hope this constant yo-yoing back and forth is not to save some silly system that is ripe for exploitation and will still be exploited if it takes a month over a week and a half.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

The point may be a little bit over your head, but if you've only been playing as long as your forum sign-up date then it's not your fault. If you check out Shadowy and mine's forum sign-up date, we come from an era where writs didn't even exist. Leveling is exponentially faster than it used to be - I occasionally comment about never having had a character over level 24 or having rolled a character, but that's because I spend my extremely limited playtime talking rather than killing.

Old does not have to equal condescending. A person that joined yesterday has as much to bring to the table as people have been here for years. This is a forum for feed back. the date someone joined the forums is not relevant, and there is no reason to bring it up when responding to someone. Its great you have been here a long time, so have I. I am proud of that, but things and opinions change. Just look at the server on a daily basis.

You're absolutely right that this came across in a way that was meaner than intended. Someone else pointed this out to me and I apologized (although not very well, I think.) The only explanation I have other than general callous-foot-in-mouth syndrome is that at the time I probably misread the tone of this line -

"Have you created a character within the past week or so?"

Which I responded to, to also be dismissive out of hand. Rather than focusing on the validity of the question to the subject I perceived a dismissal and assumption that the player was speaking from a place of ignorance about their own opinion, and taking a look at the forum join dates of those involved I attempted to justify an opinion I shared about the leveling speed and the concept of RP before 30.

It's not a justification for the shitty comment, but it is what I feel is an owed explanation. I don't like upsetting people or treating them like that (I certainly don't like being treated like that). Sorry.

Edit: For the sake of being slightly on topic, I'd also be fine with the idea of gating X number of reward rolls behind Y amount of time. Although I'd honestly like to see something for people who RP tons but just don't ever seem to make it to 30; that said, I'm biased on that field.

[MissEvelyn]

At the risk of sounding harsh, if people are leaving the server because the leveling has slowed down (despite still being lightning fast compared to older days) then perhaps it is for the better.

I quoted this part because it probably needs a bit more explanation of what I mean. But I do want to touch on the rest of your post because really, it makes no sense. There is no one play style that defines arelith. Its biggest strength, at least from a numbers side, is that it caters to all sorts of play styles. Execution wise it may also be its biggest weakness. If you want to bang out character after character and run through the pve content as fast as you can, arelith is for you. If you want to form a mega pvp group and play the game in a constant state of conflict, arelith is for you. If you want to sit around roleplaying around the fire bowl in Cordor, Arelith is for you. No one style has a claim to the server, and the fact that you are saying it does means maybe arelith is actually not for you.

Ironically, two years ago I would have been on your side. I fought for rule changes to make the server more rp focused then it is, to make the setting matter more than the need to exact player pvp justice on someone who slighted them somewhere along the line. I lost, and I accepted that and began to just try to enjoy arelith for what it is. But that also means that I now rush to 30 to make sure I'm not just bait. I suppose you just glossed over that bit.

But as to the part I think needed further explanation. I don't think people will say "leveling is too slow, I quit!". I think they will play their level 30s for longer periods of time, and then when they get bored just move on to other things instead of going through the process again. Over time, that will decrease the population. I get the sense that you think that would be a good thing, and who knows, maybe it is. But it doesn't make the statement any less true.

I appreciate your response, and also your familiarity with where I'm coming from. I wouldn't outright say you "lost" as I don't think it's about winning or losing arguments.
I also agree that Arelith has many playstyles, many different types of roleplayers. It is a strength, but it's also a weakness. As long as the scope is very broad, you'll never please everyone. You won't even please yourself as the server owner. But you do the best you can.

I do question if an overly broad server scope is wise, as detailed in my previous comment here. The fight you say you lost, to make the setting matter more, to make the server more roleplay focused; all those qualities are good and something you *want* to see in a successful roleplay server. I question the broad scope, because it falls under what so many modern games suffer from today: Quantity over quality. I'm biased, but if there is one thing I see when I look at 99% of Arelith, it's that the developers, both old and new, value quality. The module designers that breathed life into what we play in today created these areas with passion. Every square on the module matters, there are no or very few empty, pointless spaces, and the sounds were meticulously placed to bring to life an atmosphere that rivals that of most NWN modules ever made.

It's clear to me that the people who founded Arelith, the people who took ownership, and the people who worked on this server all valued quality. Even Kenji is keenly focused on getting it right with all those wonderful contributions.


It is my perception - and I'm happy to learn that I'm wrong - that the appreciation for the module is getting lost, as players are becoming more interested in seeing numbers on a sheet go up, or "winning" than they are in telling an immersive story within the world.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying level ups or reveling in your win, by the way, but when that is the sole focus, we start to have a split in the player base. The mechanical focused-on-winning group, and the roleplay storytelling focused group. Those two groups cannot coexist in a small, persistent world that forces them to be together. If Arelith were an MMO and Roleplay were optional, it wouldn't be an issue. But as long as both groups exist freely here without reign, these threads will keep popping up. Both camps will be dissatisfied, and both groups will want the other to yield.

Can you be a brilliant storytelling roleplayer while having a mechanically optimal build? Absolutely, don't mistake what I'm saying. It's the why I'm concerned about. Why is leveling up at a breakneck pace *so* important to a player? Why is it such a terrible concept to enjoy your level for longer than a few days? You can just as much tell stories, you can still partake in political roleplay. And your character development is rewarded with progress that you can see.

Just like in real life, you don't get toned by going to the gym for a single day, the same is true for your character. Progress takes time. It should take time. And even with the recent nerfs, you still level faster than any other epic hero from the Forgotten Realms. It took Drizzt Do'Urden more than a century to reach level 15, for context.

You mentioned no one style has claimed Arelith. You're right, and I don't think that's necessarily what has to happen. But when people complain about XP nerfs, they inadvertently claim that their style has already taken prevalence, that fast leveling is something they should be entitled to. At the end of the day, our opinions are just that, and the final decision lies with the devs, and with Irongron.

As to your last statement, my initial reaction was a nod of my head. But that's a little harsh, and I don't want people to leave Arelith, especially not if they were enjoying themselves. Taking a break can be good, and we've all done that. But I do want people to examine why they enjoy being here, and what drew them to stay in the first place. A little pondering can do us all good.

At last I just want to point out that enjoying numbers on a spreadsheet that you put into practice in a D&D character is a valid playstyle, and I don't want anyone to think I'm dismissing their fun. I mean, 3.5 was practically unplayable without sheets and sheets of paper, so I get it.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

At the risk of sounding harsh, if people are leaving the server because the leveling has slowed down (despite still being lightning fast compared to older days) then perhaps it is for the better.

I quoted this part because it probably needs a bit more explanation of what I mean. But I do want to touch on the rest of your post because really, it makes no sense. There is no one play style that defines arelith. Its biggest strength, at least from a numbers side, is that it caters to all sorts of play styles. Execution wise it may also be its biggest weakness. If you want to bang out character after character and run through the pve content as fast as you can, arelith is for you. If you want to form a mega pvp group and play the game in a constant state of conflict, arelith is for you. If you want to sit around roleplaying around the fire bowl in Cordor, Arelith is for you. No one style has a claim to the server, and the fact that you are saying it does means maybe arelith is actually not for you.

Ironically, two years ago I would have been on your side. I fought for rule changes to make the server more rp focused then it is, to make the setting matter more than the need to exact player pvp justice on someone who slighted them somewhere along the line. I lost, and I accepted that and began to just try to enjoy arelith for what it is. But that also means that I now rush to 30 to make sure I'm not just bait. I suppose you just glossed over that bit.

But as to the part I think needed further explanation. I don't think people will say "leveling is too slow, I quit!". I think they will play their level 30s for longer periods of time, and then when they get bored just move on to other things instead of going through the process again. Over time, that will decrease the population. I get the sense that you think that would be a good thing, and who knows, maybe it is. But it doesn't make the statement any less true.

I appreciate your response, and also your familiarity with where I'm coming from. I wouldn't outright say you "lost" as I don't think it's about winning or losing arguments.
I also agree that Arelith has many playstyles, many different types of roleplayers. It is a strength, but it's also a weakness. As long as the scope is very broad, you'll never please everyone. You won't even please yourself as the server owner. But you do the best you can.

I do question if an overly broad server scope is wise, as detailed in my previous comment here. The fight you say you lost, to make the setting matter more, to make the server more roleplay focused; all those qualities are good and something you *want* to see in a successful roleplay server. I question the broad scope, because it falls under what so many modern games suffer from today: Quantity over quality. I'm biased, but if there is one thing I see when I look at 99% of Arelith, it's that the developers, both old and new, value quality. The module designers that breathed life into what we play in today created these areas with passion. Every square on the module matters, there are no or very few empty, pointless spaces, and the sounds were meticulously placed to bring to life an atmosphere that rivals that of most NWN modules ever made.

It's clear to me that the people who founded Arelith, the people who took ownership, and the people who worked on this server all valued quality. Even Kenji is keenly focused on getting it right with all those wonderful contributions.


It is my perception - and I'm happy to learn that I'm wrong - that the appreciation for the module is getting lost, as players are becoming more interested in seeing numbers on a sheet go up, or "winning" than they are in telling an immersive story within the world.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying level ups or reveling in your win, by the way, but when that is the sole focus, we start to have a split in the player base. The mechanical focused-on-winning group, and the roleplay storytelling focused group. Those two groups cannot coexist in a small, persistent world that forces them to be together. If Arelith were an MMO and Roleplay were optional, it wouldn't be an issue. But as long as both groups exist freely here without reign, these threads will keep popping up. Both camps will be dissatisfied, and both groups will want the other to yield.

Can you be a brilliant storytelling roleplayer while having a mechanically optimal build? Absolutely, don't mistake what I'm saying. It's the why I'm concerned about. Why is leveling up at a breakneck pace *so* important to a player? Why is it such a terrible concept to enjoy your level for longer than a few days? You can just as much tell stories, you can still partake in political roleplay. And your character development is rewarded with progress that you can see.

Just like in real life, you don't get toned by going to the gym for a single day, the same is true for your character. Progress takes time. It should take time. And even with the recent nerfs, you still level faster than any other epic hero from the Forgotten Realms. It took Drizzt Do'Urden more than a century to reach level 15, for context.

You mentioned no one style has claimed Arelith. You're right, and I don't think that's necessarily what has to happen. But when people complain about XP nerfs, they inadvertently claim that their style has already taken prevalence, that fast leveling is something they should be entitled to. At the end of the day, our opinions are just that, and the final decision lies with the devs, and with Irongron.

As to your last statement, my initial reaction was a nod of my head. But that's a little harsh, and I don't want people to leave Arelith, especially not if they were enjoying themselves. Taking a break can be good, and we've all done that. But I do want people to examine why they enjoy being here, and what drew them to stay in the first place. A little pondering can do us all good.

At last I just want to point out that enjoying numbers on a spreadsheet that you put into practice in a D&D character is a valid playstyle, and I don't want anyone to think I'm dismissing their fun. I mean, 3.5 was practically unplayable without sheets and sheets of paper, so I get it.

So I came and came back to arelith because I love the whole action/adventuring/maybe even big numbers, in an environment where has to be IC.

There something satisfying about actions being in said construct over a generic mmo. I will never RP in mmos or environments where it is optional. But I also love fantasizing about max lvl builds. I never even reach lvl 30. But the idea of it even being more eternally far away could be discouraging. In some DnD circles I get called a power gamer because how much more mechanical savvy I am even though I'm constantly doing unoptimal rp choices. I like take a concept and push it to its fullest potential, even though I never reach lvl 30. I think cool pvp scenarios even though I never pvp. I like the idea of a 24/7 roleplay server but still rpr 20 for years to come. So I really don't belong to either camp you just described and just fail on all fronts.

But i know slowing down exp impacts those part of the supposed "roleplay camp" (this divide isn't a thing imo) more when said people have limited time to play. When I first played on arelith I'd lose all the exp I gained in a week in one death or 2 while still pre epic and never got far lol. I was a total mechanic newbie for years straight.

I think exp right know is fine cause we had a lot of buffs like adventure release and rpr tick rate etc. But it would be a bummer if it slowed down too much.

[AstralUniverse]

I don't know, Astral. Maybe the dungeons I choose are different than the ones you choose.

It really doesnt matter. The notion that you're presenting that Better Writs = Less Grinders is just false from it's root. Dont take my word for it even. I'll just quote IG.

As for the ECL reduction rewards, these were removed because they became a go to choice for those relentlessly grinding out rewards, to the extent that content intended to be rare, was commonplace.

That trend you said was gone for the past year... is still very much around.. and you were just going to 'bad' dungeons (in terms of exp gain : actual difficulty).

[Irongron]

Locking this now, for obvious reasons.

I can only reiterate; there is a lot more writ XP out there than a few weeks ago. Personally, I think it's still too high, but no plans for furher reduction, and I think everyone has made their point by now.