Epic Planar Conduit nerf

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

What I meant was, after these nerfs, I really don't want to see people complaining that either mummy dust or pc are underpowered

For now I keep the opinion that mummy dust is *perfect* balance-wise. I think it's a pillar of good design and good balance when it comes to epic summons. I also think summon creature 9 ancient elemental is underrated for how good it tanks late-game content even better than mummy dust because it has much lower clear speed. 'PCs' are not weak either. They simply have harder times gearing and leveling solo compared to summoners, and they very often just dont have a realistic answer to spell resist buffed 52 ab conduit. Hence, just toning down planar conduit at this point really goes to the distance in leveling the field. I would also argue the same about the epic unseelie summon (and possibly other warlock or bg summons if they also have mad stats like that, but I played with the fey summon) but that's for another thread and at least they arent accessible to shamans and clerics.

They also do not have double summons. I think what makes planar conduit so crazy is that its like gate+ tier stuff but like permanent duration and then two of them with only one feat. A blackgaurd has its has their main class feature and a warlock has to invest limited class bonus feats, cant even use their normal epic feats to get it and has a steep stat requirement and there is still only one of them. There is also no 'temptation of evil' with planar conduit as you are both the most socially acceptable summoner and the most powerful. Mummy dust was strong, but not brocken strong, but strong enough to make shamans consider necromancy instead of epic focus conj elemental swarm. Conduit just has not RP or power competition.

Having gate tier strength summons, with longer duration also gives you more chance to properly buff them (besides the power of being two) which also increases their overall PvE and PvP strength versus just a straight number comparison to a gate.

[AstralUniverse]

they are hilariously and significantly stronger than gate x2. the bg/lock ones too, they are so much stronger. there's a 15-20 ab difference between a buffed warlock fey epic summon and the gate version. the Astral Deva from Gate has at most 36 or 38 ab which is more or less in line with a vampire count. Just to put things in perspective. Gate is a great spell with immense value in pvp. Mummy dust is even more balanced and great.

I just personally dont wanna see summons with 52 ab. it's dumb.

[xf1313]

....if monsters can get 50+ ab and 60 ac, don’t see the point why a summon cannot get high ab.

It is not a competition where pc build must be better than a summon, makes sense it is the other way around. They are archons and slaadi lords after all.

[Shadowy Reality]

....if monsters can get 50+ ab and 60 ac, don’t see the point why a summon cannot get high ab.

It is not a competition where pc build must be better than a summon, makes sense it is the other way around. They are archons and slaadi lords after all.

Because PvP is a thing. If a mage can summon two weaponmasters, and still have access to all of their spells, it starts to feel like actual weaponmasters PCs may be missing some level 9 spells.

[Xerah]

....if monsters can get 50+ ab and 60 ac, don’t see the point why a summon cannot get high ab.

It is not a competition where pc build must be better than a summon, makes sense it is the other way around. They are archons and slaadi lords after all.

Because this is not how video games work.

[Svrtr]

To get one and a half to two summons who are as strong and often STRONGER than actual player characters is rather obscene. To defend one feat outdoing many, many mundane builds in terms of damage and tankiness and AB and saying it is fair and justified that a full caster also gets this on top would be as fair as saying a 25/5 WM should be able to full cast and get a familiar and counterspell hellball.

Is this hyperbolic? Perhaps a bit, but not terribly so when we are seeing single feat permanent summons outperforming player characters and making dungeons that some would say are designed to not be solo-ed soloable with full casters

[xf1313]

....if monsters can get 50+ ab and 60 ac, don’t see the point why a summon cannot get high ab.

It is not a competition where pc build must be better than a summon, makes sense it is the other way around. They are archons and slaadi lords after all.

Because PvP is a thing. If a mage can summon two weaponmasters, and still have access to all of their spells, it starts to feel like actual weaponmasters PCs may be missing some level 9 spells.

But...we are playing dnd, high level spell casters are naturally better than fighter. Try imagine a epic fighter take down the god of war? When dealing with mage the rule is do not let them prepare...right? Only fools would stand and wait for a caster to get all wards up, summon an army and decide now it is the best time to go head on LOL.

I am not a pvp person, it is very likely that current pvp is wait for wards then everyone go head on. But surely there’s more to it? Someone become an obstacle, he seems a powerful wizard, so lets not try to start a fight and get assassin to deal with it...and such.

[Skibbles]

Playing DND is sitting down with 4-6 of your friends, roleplaying, and throwing some dice.

Arelith has thousands of players. It's a DND inspired MMO. You can't just have one class have a massive advantage over others in a barely controllable environment. What you'll get is certain players picking that class, forming up, and then dominating every aspect of Roleplay through unstoppable force until vast numbers of people quit playing because there's no way to contend with it fairly in order to tell their own stories.

Dragon Knight had a similar history. Entire factions were entirely all casters that dropped a dozen wildly overpowered dragons at any sign of trouble and had their way with just about anything. Eventually enough was enough.

Balance and fun always comes before lore in a game.

[xf1313]

Playing DND is sitting down with 4-6 of your friends, roleplaying, and throwing some dice.

Arelith has thousands of players. It's a DND inspired MMO. You can't just have one class have a massive advantage over others in a barely controllable environment. What you'll get is certain players picking that class, forming up, and then dominating every aspect of Roleplay through unstoppable force until vast numbers of people quit playing because there's no way to contend with it fairly in order to tell their own stories.

Dragon Knight had a similar history. Entire factions were entirely all casters that dropped a dozen wildly overpowered dragons at any sign of trouble and had their way with just about anything. Eventually enough was enough.

Balance and fun always comes before lore in a game.

I do not disagree with you in anyway. Besides, just picture what you mentioned there feels horrible enough. (Thou similar situation still exists, where high level seems to dominate and deal with whatever happens with power. I had experience where I try to rp and talk my way out, the other side just killed me straight)

What I was trying to ask is if the balance is taking into account of class mechanics? Casters have their weakness, same as everyone else. There If rogue drop sneak attack, monk trying to have ranged competitions with AA...that is not where those class should outshine others that are designed to be excellent in certain aspects. Where the most effective way to deal with summon is kill the caster, if dispel fail to work.

There’s quite a few posts on nerfing casters but no one seems to have issue with melee class have too much ab or ac, I wonder why. Is it because when playing caster class, players are prepared to be defeated while the illusion of grandur is very common among melee power builds?

When someone mentions class balance there are not enough details on their strategy, pc can be dispelled, the caster, especially wizard, is just a big knock down dummy. The ac is poor even if buffed, any dedicated melee build can take care of the caster with a few crits if they play it right.

If there’s a argument that their build must be able to chop though an army of devils, demon, Slaadi, etc while taking all the spells throw at them and beat the fully buffed caster single-handed, we’ll be dealing with a out-balanced class here.

[Skibbles]

Playing DND is sitting down with 4-6 of your friends, roleplaying, and throwing some dice.

Arelith has thousands of players. It's a DND inspired MMO. You can't just have one class have a massive advantage over others in a barely controllable environment. What you'll get is certain players picking that class, forming up, and then dominating every aspect of Roleplay through unstoppable force until vast numbers of people quit playing because there's no way to contend with it fairly in order to tell their own stories.

Dragon Knight had a similar history. Entire factions were entirely all casters that dropped a dozen wildly overpowered dragons at any sign of trouble and had their way with just about anything. Eventually enough was enough.

Balance and fun always comes before lore in a game.

I do not disagree with you in anyway, because casters have their weakness, same as everyone else.

What I was trying to ask is if the balance is taking into account of class mechanics? When rogue drop sneak attack, monk trying to have ranged competitions with AA...that is not where those class should outshine others that are designed to be excellent in certain aspects.

When someone mentions class balance there are not enough details on their strategy, pc can be dispelled, the caster, especially wizard, is just a big knock down dummy. The ac is poor even if buffed, any dedicated melee build can take care of the caster with a few crits if they play it right.

If there’s a argument that their build must be able to chop though an army of devils, demon, Slaadi, etc while taking all the spells throw at them and beat the fully buffed caster single-handed, we’ll be dealing with a out-balanced class here.

You're pretty close to the answer others are trying to convey here, I think.

The weakness of a wizard is indeed martial related, but that's shored up when they have spells that create martial monsters that can outperform or at least match other martial characters. That's part of the problem outlined here is that, with these summons, a lot of the assumed weaknesses are either nonexistent or a little too pushed aside. This also brings the unfortunate reality that all martial characters are then shoehorned into being forced to build around the same counters (lore spam for WoF scrolls) which hurts the fun of build diversity.

Also take note that it isn't just wizards that can take this feat too. Clerics and favored souls can as well, and they can beat the pants off a lot of martial characters too. In such cases you'll have a gate summon coming after you, a planar conduit followup, and an angry cleric who may or may not have used all that time you spent trying to get rid of the summons to attack, harass, or dispel your own character.

Left uncontrolled, or if the tools didn't work or are not available, a single PC could be facing upwards of 15 attacks per round by two slaad and a divine power battlepriest. Most magical counters, such as a WoF scroll, can only be done once per round and leaves the user incredibly vulnerable. That kind of engagement goes downhill very fast.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

they are hilariously and significantly stronger than gate x2. the bg/lock ones too, they are so much stronger. there's a 15-20 ab difference between a buffed warlock fey epic summon and the gate version. the Astral Deva from Gate has at most 36 or 38 ab which is more or less in line with a vampire count. Just to put things in perspective. Gate is a great spell with immense value in pvp. Mummy dust is even more balanced and great.

I just personally dont wanna see summons with 52 ab. it's dumb.

I dont think 52 ab should be the only base line for what is dumb, I think qaulity and qaunity and duration is what makes planar a problem

Lotts of ways to get that much ab on a summon, builds that the build community would roast me for building bad things.

Dracon lich with necro focus and proper buffing gets that high.

If gates benefit from epic CL bonuses, they can get they high via extended gate and proper buffing (i am unsure if gates do or not though at this time, i think they do)

Monoliths from specialist wizards

int 15 mod cl 30 epic focus illusion shades, properly buffed reaches these lvls of ac as well, but they pack like no punch and everyone wil tell you shades summon are garbage,

Its not just ab that makes them over tuned, its everything. Longer duration than dracolinch, more qauntity, better crit ranges. etc

[AstralUniverse]

I dont think 52 ab should be the only base line for what is dumb, I think qaulity and qaunity and duration is what makes planar a problem

I disagree, for the most part. Maybe other stats should also be toned down but I personally mostly look at ab because it's the main factor in how threatening it is in pvp. With much lower ab it should still be fine for pve (probably no longer effortlessly destroy some epic bosses, subsequently) but importantly, no longer out-right destroy low to average ac builds who dont happen to have spellbooked wofs or banishments because they need to breach it first and spend 12-18 seconds getting rid of them or just one of them. It's a very terrible build check to have in this game and it shows in the distribution of what people are playing.

At the same time I dont want this to screw new/unskilled players who just wanna go out to get some adamantine somewhere so I think most of the summons tankiness should be left as is. That's my two cents.

Lotts of ways to get that much ab on a summon

No not really, from my observation, except conduit and epic eldritch summon.
I could never get the vamps anywhere near that on any class I summoned them with. You could be right about Gate summons, maybe, I havent tried buffing them hard because they dont last long and that's the whole point and what keeps them in check. The warlock fey summon gets 52 ab just with empowered bulls, for comparison. There's a clear gap in design philosophy as you see summons with base ab in the mid to high 30s and then suddenly other summons of the same 'epicness' with base ab in the mid to high 40s. Weird.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I dont think 52 ab should be the only base line for what is dumb, I think qaulity and qaunity and duration is what makes planar a problem

I disagree, for the most part. Maybe other stats should also be toned down but I personally mostly look at ab because it's the main factor in how threatening it is in pvp. With much lower ab it should still be fine for pve (probably no longer effortlessly destroy some epic bosses, subsequently) but importantly, no longer out-right destroy low to average ac builds who dont happen to have spellbooked wofs or banishments because they need to breach it first and spend 12-18 seconds getting rid of them or just one of them. It's a very terrible build check to have in this game and it shows in the distribution of what people are playing.

At the same time I dont want this to screw new/unskilled players who just wanna go out to get some adamantine somewhere so I think most of the summons tankiness should be left as is. That's my two cents.

Lotts of ways to get that much ab on a summon

No not really, from my observation, except conduit and epic eldritch summon.
I could never get the vamps anywhere near that on any class I summoned them with. You could be right about Gate summons, maybe, I havent tried buffing them hard because they dont last long and that's the whole point and what keeps them in check. The warlock fey summon gets 52 ab just with empowered bulls, for comparison. There's a clear gap in design philosophy as you see summons with base ab in the mid to high 30s and then suddenly other summons of the same 'epicness' with base ab in the mid to high 40s. Weird.

What you think of my different nerf ideas to planar conduit i posted above?

Also I never claimed to get vampires that high in ab, I claimed to get builds that are considered to be bad that high in AB like a cl 30 dracolich buffed with plus 12 strength and all the necro foci, etc. The shades memes, or monoliths. I specifically claimed my alternatives were not considered good options (builds with mummy dust are good options).

Warlocks tax (blaster warlock not summon warlock seems to be the meta) is way more than planar conduit and planar conduit has more qauntity and still comparable strengths for their tier 6 vs tier 6. Looking at the baseline for feystream, it may be a bit overtuned baseline. But one thing people forget is the epic CL scaling warlocks and pure blackgaurds get. They get more baseline AB and more strength to add to the ab even more AND the baseline non scalling is slightly better than gate

IF you want less abstract from me:

trans great empower bull str is plus 8 which is 4 more ab

Epic CL 30 give more stre and ab

Tier 6 summon has average of 2 more ab than normal gate
Thats 6 more ab so far

I believe spell foci conj might not apply to gate, if this is so thats also another 2 ab for the warlock (or another 3 ab for epic conju foci planar conduit users vs just gate users on top of longer duration to properly buffed)

Before we know it, we are easily 10 ab over the baseline non buffed gate and we havent even thrown in an aura of vitality yet and these things are rocking massive crit multiplier and crit ranges compared to the earth monos that can achieve said AB (which the terrible build tax of being a conjuration specialist or relying on wild mage surge random chance non planned).

[-XXX-]

I disagree, for the most part. Maybe other stats should also be toned down but I personally mostly look at ab because it's the main factor in how threatening it is in pvp. With much lower ab it should still be fine for pve (probably no longer effortlessly destroy some epic bosses, subsequently) but importantly, no longer out-right destroy low to average ac builds who dont happen to have spellbooked wofs or banishments because they need to breach it first and spend 12-18 seconds getting rid of them or just one of them. It's a very terrible build check to have in this game and it shows in the distribution of what people are playing.

The question here is whether the design intent was for summons to represent a threat during PvP encounters or not.
If the answer to that question is yes, then the conduit's AB is appropriate (and should be buffed for other summons as well) and the damage output is what should be looked at instead.
If the answer is no, then the AB should be lowered by cca 5 ranks.

When it comes to the PvE survivability of the conduit summons, they have fairly high AC to make up for the lack of undead immunities that the dust summons enjoy. Turns out that high AC seems to be better than crit immunity in PvE.
That combined with the fact that their hp pool is more concentrated than it is with dust summons gives more mileage out of their DR and regeneration.

Either way, I guess that we'll need to wait and see how the team tweaks them this time around.

Dracon lich with necro focus and proper buffing gets that high.

The dracolich does actually have base STR 32 (assuming CL 30 ESF:necro spellcaster), then gets a +10 soft STR buff applied when summonned, so the best STR it can ever have is 44. Interestingly enough a non-conju ESF:necro caster can still push any other EDK variant to better AB than their dracolich.
Then again, EDK is in a bad spot and could use to be looked at as well - if nothing else, their hit box collisions render these summons unfunctional.

[Scylon]

Not sure if I posted this before,

PC needs a nerf IMO. Bit of AC, AB and damage.

My Idea is make both summons T5 for a start, and wiggle the stats from there.

Regarding the T6 summons, my thoughts were rebuilding Blackguard as a "new but not really" class called Planer Guard.

It would function essentially the same, however it could be any alignment and the streams would allow for t6 of what ever. Also abilities would work based on where your alignment was. So a TN could summon anything, but have no bonus vs alignment, because they are filthy heathens. You also can't have a Evil alignment running with a good creatures because that is 2 steps from his alignment. (which BG currently doesn't allow either)

[Exordius]

I think the ac is fine, its the damage and ab people were complaining the most about. I dont like the idea of making both of them T5, locking T6 out makes the spell even more weak.

[Flower Power]

Planar Conduit is really good. It could use a nerf.

I say this as someone who is playing a wizard, a class that is functionally good for only 3 things:

- Silly support stuff with crafting and ESF perks.
- Mass Haste
- Planar Conduit

But could we also please change the LN summon to something other than Formians? Preferably something smaller? The Formians are so big that they constantly bump into each other and cancel movement orders, get stuck on environmental props, have a hard time pathfinding on anything other than an open field, and will sometimes have a hard time hitting certain creatures even if they're standing directly adjacent to them because of shenanigans.