Summon Buff Changes

[Security_Blanket]

My favorite part about the 'But the AoE spells will still work!' and the argument of 'We're really doing this to give players more options and spell slots to use!'

I sort of immediately call bullshit.

+1

[-XXX-]

With the prevalence of loremasters, these scrolls work most of the time. Also, 42 SR is almost a total guarantee they won’t work, PLUS the other wards on top. I think the point stands that they didn’t need this.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I was merely pointing out that the Gate vs WoF dynamic was more attrition based in nature (i.e.: "have you brought more WoF scrolls than I have Gates?"), with the edge being given to Gate as is, as every one in X uses of WoF is bound to be a "whif" thanks to the Gate's native SR already.


Personally I'd be more concerned about the Reliquary Codex making any and all cleric summons virtually undispellable if/when implemented as advertised.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

So yeah, I uh... made the mistake of reading this thread before I actually looked at what these things do, so your criticisms shaped an opinion that should have been formed by the facts. And the facts tell me that these things are too good and will need to be nerfed. Druids got the worst of it, which is probably by design, and I guess any cleric that can't use that bard harp that casts mass haste per day is probably behind the curve (they are still a cleric though!). But that arcane one? Hehe, I'm going to make great use of that next time I am stuck at home for an extended period if it's not nerfed before then. I will definitely enjoy 54 minute shield spells on my summons, as well as premonition -and- 5 minutes and 24 seconds of spell mantle.

Did you all miss the part where they are all extended? Just getting one of these at a low level will be enough to make it to the mid teens.

[It Came From Beneath The Earth]

So yeah, I uh... made the mistake of reading this thread before I actually looked at what these things do, so your criticisms shaped an opinion that should have been formed by the facts. And the facts tell me that these things are too good and will need to be nerfed. Druids got the worst of it, which is probably by design, and I guess any cleric that can't use that bard harp that casts mass haste per day is probably behind the curve (they are still a cleric though!). But that arcane one? Hehe, I'm going to make great use of that next time I am stuck at home for an extended period if it's not nerfed before then. I will definitely enjoy 54 minute shield spells on my summons, as well as premonition -and- 5 minutes and 24 seconds of spell mantle.

Did you all miss the part where they are all extended? Just getting one of these at a low level will be enough to make it to the mid teens.

No. Irongron has been quietly editing what was originally posted without making mention of the fact he's changed it anywhere.

Edit: This is still a massive net loss. You could easily have used additional wards to great benefit. If these items were supplemental and not in replacement of? This wouldn't be as much of a problem as they are right now. Casting mage armor is a joke in comparison to barkskin, shield of faith, protection from alignment, cats, bears, bulls, haste, spell resist, mage armor wand or scroll.

It's basically a net loss of something akin to 8-20 AC on summons. As well as survivability and utility.

[Aren]

So yeah, I uh... made the mistake of reading this thread before I actually looked at what these things do, so your criticisms shaped an opinion that should have been formed by the facts. And the facts tell me that these things are too good and will need to be nerfed. Druids got the worst of it, which is probably by design, and I guess any cleric that can't use that bard harp that casts mass haste per day is probably behind the curve (they are still a cleric though!). But that arcane one? Hehe, I'm going to make great use of that next time I am stuck at home for an extended period if it's not nerfed before then. I will definitely enjoy 54 minute shield spells on my summons, as well as premonition -and- 5 minutes and 24 seconds of spell mantle.

Did you all miss the part where they are all extended? Just getting one of these at a low level will be enough to make it to the mid teens.

The announcement has gone through several updates/revisions to since this thread was started.

[Distant Relation]

Did you all miss the part where they are all extended?

That is precisely one of the things that was changed/revised based on the feedback given here.

[MissEvelyn]

A lot of things

Aren is without question one of the most capable individuals I've met when it comes to execution of mechanics, but also, has a fundamental understanding of how they function and an understanding of balance probably greater than that which most players or developers could likely hope to achieve. So I'm just going to +1 this.

+1 from me as well

+1 from myself as well!

It's true that NWN is an old game and we've had 2 decades to learn how to get good at this game. Once you know the mechanics, you can't unlearn them.
I too get frustrated at how easy some of the content is, especially (big emphasis) when you're with a group of people. Scary monsters aren't so scary when they go down in less than a round.

I know it's a big task, but I'd rather see monsters improved. I don't mean as in buffed numbers, though scaling to groups would be very welcome change.
I mean their AI. Monster AI in NWN is generally not that great, and it's definitely not aged well. Once you figure out how they work, you see that all hostile NPCs work the exact same way. There is no disparaty in the AI between a wild hobgoblin and a dark necromancer.

It's a big ask, but what we need is not completely dismantle the summoning system, but rather to improve upon the monster AI. Make them have actual strategies that they employ, as appropriate to their creature type and intelligence.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Aren is without question one of the most capable individuals I've met when it comes to execution of mechanics, but also, has a fundamental understanding of how they function and an understanding of balance probably greater than that which most players or developers could likely hope to achieve. So I'm just going to +1 this.

+1 from me as well

+1 from myself as well!

It's true that NWN is an old game and we've had 2 decades to learn how to get good at this game. Once you know the mechanics, you can't unlearn them.
I too get frustrated at how easy some of the content is, especially (big emphasis) when you're with a group of people. Scary monsters aren't so scary when they go down in less than a round.

I know it's a big task, but I'd rather see monsters improved. I don't mean as in buffed numbers, though scaling to groups would be very welcome change.
I mean their AI. Monster AI in NWN is generally not that great, and it's definitely not aged well. Once you figure out how they work, you see that all hostile NPCs work the exact same way. There is no disparaty in the AI between a wild hobgoblin and a dark necromancer.

It's a big ask, but what we need is not completely dismantle the summoning system, but rather to improve upon the monster AI. Make them have actual strategies that they employ, as appropriate to their creature type and intelligence.

AI scripts in NWN are clunky and limited at best or outright nightmarish and laggy at worst.

I did once have a swarm system on a different server, but I did it by basically eliminating individual AI and having one AI creature direct all the others. It's the only way to do it cleanly.

[Shroomie Tucker]

Guys.. you don't realize.. this is the secret Conjuration Specialist Wizard Buff- you were all simply too blind to see it

[Lass is Class]

Found the change to be a very direct buff to the Gate/Planar Conduit users, especially Warlocks.

Reliquary (Greater Divine) is broken. 42 SR from incast on Balor/Fey Prince? Give two, please.

Scrolls of Mass Buffs, books with mass buffs exist, making the change nerfing heavily mostly those who cannot afford those early (any pre-15 character that started on their own without group's support).

As a result, Sequencer staves and Sequencers for buffing summons (Level 9 summon/Elemental Swarm in a stave + scrolls/tomes, there we go) became a hilariously powerful addition to those who have enough stats and coin to afford it.

--
The idea of having to /choose/ between buff groups to apply with specific limiters is actually /fantastic/ - the less time need to spend buffing in general, the better, and the fewer buffs you can get, the better too. Maybe one day such an approach will reach re-balancing and cut the need for a few dozen magical effects upon each character.

On the other hand, as people said - some content at early-mid levels is already hard enough as is (hello, Malarite jungles), and not all summons are properly balanced around their Power Level vs how early folks can summon them. Some players consider summons to be 'balanced' only when they are ESF: Conjuration summons + 11 stats + Mage Armor/Barkskin/Shield Pot or Shield of Faith/Hasted.

[Hrothgar Bloodaxe]

A few thoughts:

1. I think many people agree that certain summons were overpowered, Planar Conduit being the main culprit. The obvious solution is to then weaken the spell/stream/etc. - not disrupt the foundation of how spellcasting / buffing works across the entire game. This update goes far beyond reducing the power of one or two unbalanced spells....it has effectively eliminated the viability of a broad swath of builds / classes, without any warning to speak of.

2. The idea that "spending a few minutes buffing" is some kind of actual problem that merits this type of solution sounds borderline disingenuous, at least within the context of explaining this update. I cannot think of a single player who, when faced with the choice of spending 2-3 minutes buffing vs. functionally not being able to buff at all, would have ever said "oh yes, this is the solution I've been looking for." This rationale just seems like a very, very poor reason, or a (poor) excuse to make a punitive update somehow seem like it's intended as a favor. Again, if the issue was simply "casting buffs takes too long," then why not just include more spells in the sequencers? Why cap it at just a handful of spells, that overlook some of the most necessary ones (zoo spells).

3. The complete lack of prior notice, opportunity for feedback, etc. is startling, and to be honest, just downright inconsiderate. I'm sure many of us recall how when scythes were going to be reduced from x4 to a x3 multiplier....this was announced literally months ahead of time. Warnings were posted regularly. And that was for one weapon, that wasn't even widely used, for a relative minor adjustment, that didn't even really affect the class build (i.e. your twohand melee character, would still operate in the same way, just with slightly less damage). And while the idea that Planar Conduit might be adjustsed had been aluded to...this is not even remotely close to what's now being done. Even if player feedback is to be completely disregarded as part of the process....at least let people know in advance so they don't waste what little free time they have, making characters they can't use.

For what is arguably one of the biggest updates / changes on the server, certainly within the last few years (if not all time)....we get 24 hours notice? Really? What's the rush?

Honest question: Why is rolling this out quickly, and without feedback, the best approach? What problem is so urgent, that this extremely disruptive update is deployed with basically no notice, no testing, no player input? Why is this something that couldn't be tested on PGCC, then gradually phased in over 2-3 months? I can't think of a good explanation that answers these questions, aside from "We didn't think about this," or "We did think about this, but aren't concerned with how this impacts people." Either of which is pretty sad, and certainly frustrating.

4. Are all casting classes going to be offered a relevel for their crafting skills? How, exactly, are we supposed to make these templates? Since there was no notice, none of the existing casters could have ever prepared for such a thing. What if you are an arcane caster that chose alchemy? What if you are a druid who specialized in carpentry? This update is creating a situation in which it is now a hard requirement to devote a full amount of crafting points (45 DC is functionally dedicating yourself to a single craft). This is really the first time a consumable has ever been truly required for operating a class, outside of spell components, which was nowhere near as difficult/costly - and again, this is being done with almost no warning or notice.

5. I can't speak for all casters, but specifically for Warlocks: this update has made the many variations of the class almost unplayable:
- To get the "good" summon as a Warlock, it requires 3 class feats - so yes, while the summon is powerful, it's because it should be - no other class needs to spend 3 class feats in order to cast an end-game-ready summon. If this update is going to stick, the number of feats required should be reduced, or the power of the summon itself should be expanded drastically.
- For Fey pact, specifically - what is the point of having the "double haste" ability (unlimited on yourself, freeing up the "cooldown" for your summon), if you can't use it on a summon? You would just use Mass Haste for a party....so...one of the key benefits of Fey pact, is just gone.
- More generally....what is the point of having buffs on the infinicast/pact list? Most of these buffs, when extended, last either turns or hours/level. The only reason it was useful to buff summons. Party members, between wands, potions, etc. usually buff themselves; these are not difficult spells to cast, even for non-casters.
- Warlocks have notoriously low spell DCs. The whole benefit of the class was being able to cast many low-level buffs on a summon, as the low-level offensive spells were basically useless, certainly when compared to the eldritch blast. And since warlocks only get 4 level 6 spells, they get a choice between Mass Zoo Spells, or Pact Spells, which is just downright silly.
- The Warlock armor / spell sequencer is now somewhat pointless. This gear needs to be reworked. The only spell that would be somewhat useful here is darkness....but given the huge number of casts that would now be available, it also seriously detracts from people that chose pacts to use that spell (i.e. it's meaningless as a pact spell now).

Ultimately, this update just seems really poorly planned and executed. It has made a sweeping change to the game that seriously disrupts a lot of players, with almost no warning, and an explanation that frankly doesn't make any sense. Instead of having carefully planned, iterative updates that re-balance certain spells, the approach seems to be "blow it all up and see what happens."

This is a free to play game, we all understand that we can "vote with our feet." But when people spend serious amounts of free time bulding things in an environment you've created, it's common courtesy to at least give them a heads up.

One of Arelith's key rules is to "Be Nice." Whatever the merits of the update are mechanicaly, the way this was handled was anything but nice.

[Eyeliner]

I do see that the buffs are powerful. Probably too powerful. But that's not what my complaint or a lot of complaints here are about.

It's that these devices are forced on you as the only option except for certain loopholes. The rules of what you can still use spells on are complicated and don’t entirely make sense and will probably be tinkered with. Buffing was straightforward and simple enough a new player could figure it out in the first five minutes. Now they are 100% required to do research and ask for help. Or they will think something is broken when they try and do what comes naturally.

These are an aggravating time sink. Crafting the lowest tier requires a lesser catalyst which means you’d need points in alchemy, smithing and art crafting plus 6+ ingredients total for the sequencer. Maybe these will show up in shops, maybe not, maybe you can pick up some of the glass jars and ingots, maybe not, maybe someone will help you— maybe not. Seeing how hard it can be to find other commonly used consumables like spell components or archery templates if no one is making them that day I think access will be far from guaranteed. It's going to make low and mid level play much more difficult, it's going to be yet another thing that rewards insular factions who’ll mass produce them for their own new characters while being completely opaque to new, casual and less knowledgeable players.

Last but not least it’s a clumsy, unintuitive solution that causes more problems than it solves (if it solves anything). It’s player unfriendly and bad design. As optional high level tools this would be one thing but making them MANDATORY is absurd.

[-XXX-]

It's been clearly stated that we might expect further tweaks to both the individual summons and the items in the future:

Obviously this is a major change, that will almost certain require further attention in future, both to the items themselves, and the summoned creatures.

I assume that with such major change the best and quickest way of getting all the necessary feedback and data is to just roll it out and see.
I bet that the team has done all the testing they could, now it's our turn to help them polish all the flaws they might've missed.

[Irongron]

[
No. Irongron has been quietly editing what was originally posted without making mention of the fact he's changed it anywhere.

I have, but this isn't intended as subterfuge, rather exactly as I said in the announcement, and on Discord; changes made in accordance with feedback and dev discussion. I will also be updating the recipe ingredients prior to launch, which will happen soon. When it does, I'll let players know the original announcment has been edited to the final version.

Of course we read all feedback, and take it on board, up to a point. We're just waiting on a couple of related spell updates, then I'll go over the update announcement one more time, and send this live.

Of course not every decision I make in regard to server mechanics will be popular, and I knew very well that this one would push those very same buttons as the Lore update, which I remain proud of, and the development and diversity space it opened up afterwards. By far the largest parallel I have seen with the lore update (aside from the anger) is the comment 'Yeah, it's a nice idea, but it should be an alternative and not a replacement'. This one I won't be acting on, for the same reason I didn't with lore and scrolls; it would very much defeat the purpose of the change.

Will I be as proud of this change? Or will I have finally broken the server with another rash decision? TIme will tell, certainly. Of course players are totally free to dislike a fundamental change like this, or to decry it as bad game design, but do keep in mind that while that opinion that may well yet prove valid in restrospect, at this stage it isn't actually constructive feedback, given this is most definitely happening, today.

Thanks to everyone that has given constructive feedback though, please continue to do so once this is live, and in the weeks and months that follow. Our focus after this will be on the outlying summons, and giving more utility to those non summoning/buff spells which I hope to see given a new lease of live in future months.

Once live sequencers will first be added to the loot matrix, then following a second reset, become available as recipes also.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I'll say it again, I don't think the change is the worst thing, I don't think it completely invalidates casters. But the worst off will be low levels. The dire badger and dire boar summons could use a buff. Once a caster gets the dire wolf I don't think it will be so bad.

This is reminding me about how loremageddon started. It upturned a lot of things, and over the following year a lot of rebalancing happened. And I'm hoping this is the beginning of rebalancing for casters. The main thing I'd like is for casters to be reworked entirely so they don't need to rely on a summon. If all casters get some sort of infinicast damage spell, and infinicast crowd control to be able to deal with groups. This is probably worthy of its own thread though, I've been trying to think of how to start it and address it. Cloistered, healer, and defiler clerics will also need to be looked at because the spell refund is not reliable enough of a mechanic to let them survive without a summon, given that the theme of it is supposed to be giving up cleric melee capability in favor of casting. Wizard and sorcerer are fairly self explanatory, a lot of people have gone into the issues with arcane casters. I'm hoping a lot of save-or-die spells will be looked at as well. Since I'm talking about crowd control, imagine if save-or-die spells were reworked to have different kinds of crowd control, especially things that could hinder or slow the movement (but not mechanically slow as in 1 apr) of creatures to keep them away from casters. PvP is always a concern, you could always make the CC not work in PvP.

[Irongron]

I'll say it again, I don't think the change is the worst thing, I don't think it completely invalidates casters. But the worst off will be low levels. The dire badger and dire boar summons could use a buff. Once a caster gets the dire wolf I don't think it will be so bad.

This is reminding me about how loremageddon started. It upturned a lot of things, and over the following year a lot of rebalancing happened. And I'm hoping this is the beginning of rebalancing for casters. The main thing I'd like is for casters to be reworked entirely so they don't need to rely on a summon. If all casters get some sort of infinicast damage spell, and infinicast crowd control to be able to deal with groups. This is probably worthy of its own thread though, I've been trying to think of how to start it and address it. Cloistered, healer, and defiler clerics will also need to be looked at because the spell refund is not reliable enough of a mechanic to let them survive without a summon, given that the theme of it is supposed to be giving up cleric melee capability in favor of casting. Wizard and sorcerer are fairly self explanatory, a lot of people have gone into the issues with arcane casters. I'm hoping a lot of save-or-die spells will be looked at as well. Since I'm talking about crowd control, imagine if save-or-die spells were reworked to have different kinds of crowd control, especially things that could hinder or slow the movement (but not mechanically slow as in 1 apr) of creatures to keep them away from casters. PvP is always a concern, you could always make the CC not work in PvP.

This is very much how I see it. In regard to the first point, caster classes, where possible, will start with 2 lesser sequencers, so 40 casts. Which should make the fist few levels fine, indeed easier.

The second point regarding giving casters more to do than summon? Absolutely. Now, as with the lore change there is some merit to the argument 'This will unbalance a lot of things, and you should fix those things first before making that change', but ultimately it is one that I reject. Change is born of necessity, and after years on Arelith, I can that it is especially true here. With the situation with summons as it was (and still is) for a few hours, there was really no pressing reason to address these issues, and as with lore I fully expect this to spur a number of changes. Though I should also add, I don't think the impact of this will be nearly as dramatic as some here are saying.

Finally, as for PvP, the ability to call in high end creatures, and add a whole bunch of buffs, including premonition, in the blink of an eye may well prove problematic, as will a few other issues that have been pointed out. We'll get to it, for sure, but PvP concerns really are not the focus of my attention going forward, much as they tend to dominate mechanics and balance discussions. By that I don't mean it isn't important, sure it is, but 99.99% of combat on Arelith is PvE.

[Guerra]

Almost everything written here has been very reasonable and it doesn't take ESF Divination to see how the crafting grind will affect players especially early on. It's difficult to be optimistic about any aspect of this change including how the sequencers will be abused in high level PVP.

[Hragli]

My respectful two cents. If summons really need this drastic of a nerf, then divine casters need a counterbalance. For me, summons are what enable an ‘rp’ non-optimized build to experience the game. My main tactic in PVP is to run. I understand that PVP is what most optimized build are for but I just… don’t care. And, re: PVP, I’m right next to useless outside of a group.

Sure, skill problem, whatever. But if I want to go casually exploring then I can count on buffing my summons to keep me alive.

If the team is pushing this as a QOL improvement, then why does it appear as if I will see less of the game? Generally I’m okay with changes that push players to lean into the multiplayer aspects of the game, but this seems heavy-handed and from everything I can tell really hurts caster clerics more than anyone.

I’m going into your shiny new cleric cloistered path and feeling like the path that made that passable is being given a shave that is a wee bit too close for comfort.

[Rubricae]

this change will not necessarily equate to people having more spell slots for diversified spell use, because outside of a few now defunct buffs - they're still useful and can be used on people.

i understand why this change was made, but i cannot agree with it. the goal is understandable, the means are not.

what happens when spell uses aren't as diversified as originally wished for? because i genuinely don't see this freeing up a significant amount of slots. if anything this just, saves time? i guess? but it's moot because you'd be buffing people anyway if anything.

[Irongron]

But if I want to go casually exploring then I can count on buffing my summons to keep me alive.

You are right, and I know many players play exactly the same way, but it is also want I want to move away from. Not only because it is repetitive playstyle, but also because summons have become so powerful in PvE that I've become obliged to boost the monsters to fight the summons, and not the characters. Though to be fair, many of the summons are not themselves, too powerful, but when hasted, and buffed with a dozen wands, they are nigh on invulnerable.

Of course we could spend a long time rebalancing all summons, some up, some down, and we do still have to, but what I can't do is balance summons to function, fairly, both in an unbuffed and fully buffed state. By changing this to a limited set of 'load outs' this becomes much, much easier.

Of course I know this will be painful for some, and while as I said a number of times I absolutely understand the concerns, at this stage I need valid constructive feedback, on changes and improvements that can be actioned upon the system itself, other than a firm rejection of the system itself (again, to reject the system is fine, it's just not helpful feedback for developers).

(and in regard to the above insult, I haven't deleted any posts from any user here. I'm not a forum mod, and so don't deal with those decisions, or review them)

[chris a gogo]

I play a druid alot and i don't haste the summons i don't give them MA or imp invis but they did get zoo buffs and bark skin so will druids be getting the mass zoo buffs before this goes live?

[Hragli]

Hearing that it is intended to rebalance characters to not be dependent on summons is reassuring. I will stay tuned, and I appreciate your reply

[Xerah]

(and in regard to the above insult, I haven't deleted any posts from any user here. I'm not a forum mod, and so don't deal with those decisions, or review them)

Removals in this thread have all been my doing, not any developers or Irongron.

Posts that attack developers, admins, decisions, other players, etc. will be removed. Continuing to do so, after warnings, can result in the removal of forum privileges (which does extend into Discord as well).

Please provide constructive feedback as that feedback can inform development decisions; attacking people does the opposite.

[Hragli]

I play a druid alot and i don't haste the summons i don't give them MA or imp invis but they did get zoo buffs and bark skin so will druids be getting the mass zoo buffs before this goes live?

I have to wonder the same of other full casters

[Irongron]

I play a druid alot and i don't haste the summons i don't give them MA or imp invis but they did get zoo buffs and bark skin so will druids be getting the mass zoo buffs before this goes live?

Possibly, I'd leave that for the mechanics developers to decide upon, but sounds absolutely fine to me.

As an aside, personally I'd still like to see a druid path that does without wildshapes, as from an RP perspective, I've not any interest in playing a class that runs around hulk smashing things while in an altogether absurd form. I'd love to see a version of druid that's solely focused on spellcasting. Right now, most of their spells seem superfluous. It's the shapes that put me entirely off playing druids, however powerful they might be.