Summon Buff Changes

[Aren]

Why not just straight up buff the summon creature I-VI line of spells along with undead tiers 1-4 so that they'd perform adequately for lvl 3-12 PvE content even in their unbuffed form?

We will definitely need to buff some of the creatures, especially in the Summon Creature line.

I just wanted to take the time and thank you and the team for listening to the feedback of the community. As I told you in the development channel, I am definitely not opposed to this change, but I felt I needed to at least air some of my concerns. I makes me happy that those were acted upon and I think this change could prove to be alright, all things considered.

[magistrasa]

[haha what]

I've said this privately to a few people, but the real reason why I am happy about this update is because of what it reveals about the disconnect between the community and the developers. I hope that when things calm down and settle into a new normal, everyone has the courage come back and reflect on how they handled the change.

[Kalthariam]

is there a timeframe when these changes will be reflected on the test realm?

With such a drastic change, I feel massively uncomfortable testing things out on live servers.

[Join Us. Thrive.]

is there a timeframe when these changes will be reflected on the test realm?

With such a drastic change, I feel massively uncomfortable testing things out on live servers.

They have gone into the live server already.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Just don't forget to make sure the higher tier sequencer can't be used before level 21 or something. It won't be an issue early on, as I expect all of the cheap runes have been bought up by someone already to price gouge, but eventually gifting the higher tier sequencers to starting players will become a thing among friends.

[-XXX-]

I don't think it'll be an issue as the greater sequencers offer buffs that are more relevant for PvP than PvE. They'd likely be wasted on a low lvl character who just wants to grind.

[kinginyellow]

So, I haven't played in a while (Job) and I think everyone's already given all the feedback I would give (the topic is 9 pages long) but I recently caught up with the changes and just wanted to weigh in since I at least plan to still play Arelith in the future.

The reason Gishes are popular in 3.5 and Pathfinder 1E videogames (not tabletop campaigns) is because of spell efficiency. This is something that has been brought up a lot here and I think is a nobrainer for anyone who's played NWN persistent worlds or the online for any length of time.

A spell is a one and done deal. A buff can last you through an entire dungeon. Spells can be resisted, either by SR or because the mob has Evasion and makes a save, buffs generally will only go away if there's a spellcasting mob that dedicates its life to griefing spellswords. Summons share something in common with buffs, they last a long time, and therefore the mage summoner playstyle has reigned supreme for years now. When dungeons are long affairs with multiple encounters (unlike tabletop, where maybe you'll have 1-2 encounters per session), it is simply not viable to take damage or save or suck spells, unless they are massively impactful.

The only situation where actual offensive spells see use usually is PVP, and only really specific ones. Word of Faith was a staple of PVP because of the unresistable blind.

Now, I understand the -idea- behind this change, and in theory it is a good one at least in one aspect. The fact the sequencers are a 1 use buffing tool for summons is pretty good. I no longer need to cast haste before I start spamming buffs on myself and my summon. The negatives however are what everyone else has pointed out here, with three that I believe need outlining specifically.

1- Crafting Requirements vs Ammount of Charges
I hate the spell component system, but thankfully I will find malachite and greenstone just from autolooting mobs, and sand isn't hard to come across either. If the recipe ever got changed, or the abundance of materials ever got tweaked, I'd probably never touch an arcane caster, because it'd just become inconvenient to play one. This change essentially makes summons more inconvenient to use because of both the professions required, and materials required, to make most of these sequencers. They do give low level mages something to spend their gold on at least, outside of enchanting their starter gear that they'll use until endgame, but at what cost?

2- It didn't fix the problem
Offensive spells on a spells per day system will still not see use with arelith's current dungeon design. True Flame and Warlock were popular because you could be a mage without the restrictions of the spells per day system. I haven't tried Invoker yet, but to me it has the same appeal even if it does have a mana system. These classes, along with old warlock, are the only classes that would actively cast offensive spells, because they could do it for every encounter in a dungeon. Old Feylock had infinite mind fog, you had no reason to not just drop a mindfog at every encounter.

Additionally, the damage of actual damage spells was made with the monster manual and pathfinder bestiary in mind, and not the mobs we make for persistent worlds with bloated HP pools.

As many have pointed out though, the sequencers just mean unless you're with a party instead of slotting your personal and summon buffs, you now just slot personal buffs and more summon spell slots. The core problem with the design of Wizard, Sorcerer and Druid for a Persistent World setting hasn't been solved.

Cleric is fine. Before the paths released cleric was in an unique position where a battlecleric could just be a gish with a full suite of summons and divine buffs. If you're playing a gish, and you crave that x3 divine favor and divine power buff duration you just go Warpriest which doesn't let you have summons anyway. And caster cleric, I don't have a lot of experience with, but it has a buff that lets you RNG getting spells back.

3- It hurts casters the most

For once I'm not crying about STR builds, but people here have pointed out this is a defacto buff for Shadowdancer and Blackguard, since they don't have a spellbook and can just use these sequencers to give their summons buffs. The thing is, Shadowdancer and Blackguard, despite being a summon class, aren't a 1/2 BAB class with 4 hitdice and have proficiencies. Their summon complements their playstyle, rather than being the whole strategy. A blackguard won't attack 20 times in a dungeon and suddenly be unable to autoattack anymore.

I have to sympathize with some of the people that have gotten upset with these changes because of this. Does it delete wizards from the game? Not really. But it does mean if you're leveling one, or if you have a high level one, any relevant content to your level now needs to be done with a party at all times, a restriction most builds don't have to deal with. This makes playing the character inconvenient.

I would probably just encourage people to wait it out instead of delete_characterx2 their mages, and maybe try invoker or make a spellsword for a while. Although I understand that might not be an option for faction leaders and people holding shops and housing.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I don't think it'll be an issue as the greater sequencers offer buffs that are more relevant for PvP than PvE. They'd likely be wasted on a low lvl character who just wants to grind.

I think initially these things will be way overpriced because everyone wants to get them at once. But after that, they are going to be relatively easy to get one for a minimal cost. With the update that was slipped in today ( I say slipped because everyone is focused on this) to spell mantles (now turns per level, which is insane for more reasons than this), this is going to be hilariously over-powered in the teens and low epics where the biggest threats to your summons are enemy casters.

The only situation where actual offensive spells see use usually is PVP, and only really specific ones. Word of Faith was a staple of PVP because of the unresistable blind.

I think this is just the result of preferring the easy route over any actual facts. Folks don't want to risk drawing aggro, even though they are likely hasted and a lot faster than the things that would be chasing them. Dungeon crawling is where all the spells get to shine if you are brave however, at least if you are alone. In a group your damage dealers just expect you to buff them and cast mass haste unfortunately, and that's not going to change any time soon lol.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Observation: warlock max tier summon requires a large build investment (24 cha on a stat tax class and 2 to 3 class feats which are more valuable than epic feats) in comparison to a single feat planar conduit or epic fiend. Blackgaurd also further buffs their summon with divine might/shield.

Warlocks also have a lot of cool pact buff spells that are kind of losing their usefulness for being infinicast when you just use a sequencer.

Suggestion/idea:

Let Warlocks cast pact spells on their summons.

*edit* note only pact spells so their limited pact spells will be very important which will add to the useful/utility of a caster focused warlock vs a blaster focused warlock

[RedGiant]

Not a fan of this change. It creates another consumable mini-game (with runic materials no less), has no relation to anything resembling DnD mechanics, and makes summons-dependent casters even less intuitive.

I've so far been able to avoid mechanics I don't like and still get massive enjoyment from the game, but this puts a worrisome amount of content on the wrong side of the caution tape.

[Scylon]

Aren is without question one of the most capable individuals I've met when it comes to execution of mechanics, but also, has a fundamental understanding of how they function and an understanding of balance probably greater than that which most players or developers could likely hope to achieve. So I'm just going to +1 this.

+1 from me as well

+1 from myself as well!

etc...

I'll +1 it myself with one alteration.

I don't think PC should get epic scaling removed, I think it just needs a flat nerf to AB, AC, and damage. Make a difference between a level 30 vs a level 21, but even at 21, slash it by say 5 ab, ac and damage depending on what it is. like the frogs just hit way to hard.

They might even need a greater nerf, but 5 across the board is a good start. Not being able to buff summons (which in Pve and pvp can be dispelled) is just a death sentence. There are certain places where no NEW, inviso, deathward and mine immunity (and lots more) are just going to make summons a waste of space.

[Flower Power]

why are they 2x2 each

why are they 2x2 each

why are they 2x2 each

why

why

why

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

[Party in the forest at midnight]

The new buff items take up 4 tiles, they are absolutely massive. Is there any way they could be reduced in size? There's 6 of them total, that is a lot of inventory space if a caster wants each of them. And there's reasons to use all of them. Even though the greater ones cast all of the lesser spells, for basic content a caster isn't going to want to waste a charge from a greater one on easy content.

This also doesn't save space on other consumables. A lot of the spells on these are things that I would already keep wands of, OR, are things that aren't wandable. So this isn't replacing any consumables, it's adding to it. And casters do use wands, I have half a page full of them.

Would it be possible to reduce the size please?


EDIT: Would it also be possible to remove the class restriction? I wanted to make these for my shop but am not able to because class and craft skill don't line up. It causes a barrier that will prevent the lower tier ones from being accessible. I could understand making the higher tier ones locked behind a class, those seem to be much more powerful for PvP. But the lower tier ones shouldn't be gated so severely.

[Hazard]

Not a fan of this change. It creates another consumable mini-game (with runic materials no less), has no relation to anything resembling DnD mechanics, makes summons-dependent casters even less intuitive.

I've so far been able to avoid mechanics I don't like and still get massive enjoyment from the game, but this puts a worrisome amount of content on the wrong side of the caution tape.

^ This.

[Waldo52]

I'm not sure if I agree with these changes. However there are two major positives here:

1) Just summoning things and trivializing most content just got a lot harder.

I played a tribal barb shaman who would just cast zoo spells on his zombies and tribals. My actual character generally watched the carnage and dramatically slow-walked in when the killing was over. Even with no attempt at optimization and wielding weapons I wasn't even proficient in the easiness of it was just a sad joke.

2) The team experimented with balancing through nerfs rather than fueling power creep

You can't just make everything better forever and even if you could, things get irritating for neglected classes who have to wait years for their buffs. The cycle of neglecting and then widely buffing things can get tiring, sometimes nerfing is reasonable.



Again, I'm not certain about these particular changes. But I'm glad the devs are diagnosing real problems and attempting drastic measures. The strategy shows a lot of thought. I'm curious to see how this pans out.

[Flower Power]

The new buff items take up 4 tiles, they are absolutely massive. Is there any way they could be reduced in size? There's 6 of them total, that is a lot of inventory space if a caster wants each of them. And there's reasons to use all of them. Even though the greater ones cast all of the lesser spells, for basic content a caster isn't going to want to waste a charge from a greater one on easy content.

This also doesn't save space on other consumables. A lot of the spells on these are things that I would already keep wands of, OR, are things that aren't wandable. So this isn't replacing any consumables, it's adding to it. And casters do use wands, I have half a page full of them.

Would it be possible to reduce the size please?


EDIT: Would it also be possible to remove the class restriction? I wanted to make these for my shop but am not able to because class and craft skill don't line up. It causes a barrier that will prevent the lower tier ones from being accessible. I could understand making the higher tier ones locked behind a class, those seem to be much more powerful for PvP. But the lower tier ones shouldn't be gated so severely.

Oh. Oh, it's even worse than that. It's not just 4 tiles each per. If you want to carry spares with you, because they work off charges, you'll need to have 8 tiles free per type.

[xf1313]

Can we have X time a day sequencer item please? I would very much like having that instead of consuming them.

It limits buff spamming, and make them worthwhile to craft.

Besides, I agree with buffing is tiresome, it is not only the casters, non-magical melee get even more consumables, because that is how they survive in dungeon. If the pve (none end game one) is scaled in a way that a normal melee (take fighter or pal) can run through it with no more than some potions (str, con, dex, barkskin) and healing kit, there will be much less need for buffing.

At current state a full list of buff is what keeps us alive...sadly

[Bees in Space]

I have, but this isn't intended as subterfuge, rather exactly as I said in the announcement, and on Discord; changes made in accordance with feedback and dev discussion. I will also be updating the recipe ingredients prior to launch, which will happen soon. When it does, I'll let players know the original announcment has been edited to the final version.

Of course we read all feedback, and take it on board, up to a point. We're just waiting on a couple of related spell updates, then I'll go over the update announcement one more time, and send this live.

Of course not every decision I make in regard to server mechanics will be popular, and I knew very well that this one would push those very same buttons as the Lore update, which I remain proud of, and the development and diversity space it opened up afterwards. By far the largest parallel I have seen with the lore update (aside from the anger) is the comment 'Yeah, it's a nice idea, but it should be an alternative and not a replacement'. This one I won't be acting on, for the same reason I didn't with lore and scrolls; it would very much defeat the purpose of the change.

Will I be as proud of this change? Or will I have finally broken the server with another rash decision? TIme will tell, certainly. Of course players are totally free to dislike a fundamental change like this, or to decry it as bad game design, but do keep in mind that while that opinion that may well yet prove valid in restrospect, at this stage it isn't actually constructive feedback, given this is most definitely happening, today.

Thanks to everyone that has given constructive feedback though, please continue to do so once this is live, and in the weeks and months that follow. Our focus after this will be on the outlying summons, and giving more utility to those non summoning/buff spells which I hope to see given a new lease of live in future months.

Once live sequencers will first be added to the loot matrix, then following a second reset, become available as recipes also.

I've got a question, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way because I'm not asking this in bad faith and I genuinely want to hear your response.

Why is it that the most significant changes to the server landscape (I'm thinking of both this change and the lore update) have been pushed out the door with minimal forewarning while things like new classes might spend weeks or even months in the oven before releasing on the live servers once the kinks have been ironed out? By your own admission there have been many points brought up in this thread that you hadn't considered before the announcement, but the timetable isn't being moved to compensate for adding them. We're being told that changes to over- or under-performing summons are incoming, but would it not make sense to hold off on this update until those other changes are ready so that players aren't left floundering in the meantime?

[Dreams]

I guess if bard song remains so strong, and it still works on summons, then you just need a 2-man bard + planar conduit junkie to do anything! Or just have a planar conduit addict.

[Skibbles]

Hindsight Feedback: Obviously we're too committed to this, as I assume much time was put into it, but I think it would have been miles better to just make it so most magic classes had a path, archetype, or series of feats that unlocked a summon specifically attuned to the class in question like an animal companion, and was balanced and adjusted to accept spells only from the caster's spellbook. All others summons taken out back and shot. This seems like it would have been much more elegant and easy to balance, less convoluted to new players, as well as play into the continued theme of the self-packaged classes we're mostly getting these days which I think is good.

Overall Feedback: Item size was something I've been holding my breath over, and now that they're apparently 2x2 I'm... just disappointed. Inventory bloat is already pushing NWN's generous six tab inventory to the breaking point, and now at least according to my idea of how this works - anyone with a summon or a 'pet' has to set aside an additional minimum 2x6 slots to use summons? More if the blurb about adding more themed sequencers in coming updates?

I feel like this is similar to requiring melee characters to have placeholder 'scabbards' in their inventory to justify the use of their weapons. Surely this is just too much.

I'm really glad a lot of feedback has led to adjustments, or even taking a lot of time to make direct responses, but could this be any more inconvenient at every stage? This doesn't even affect me as I view this update from the outside, having already put in well enough time on a caster or two without having ever planned to return to one, even before this change, for all the fundamental broken reasons thoroughly outlined here by other players very familiar with NWN.

The recommendation to make very basic versions of these available at common vendors must be seized upon - I believe this is critical to the NPE. I expect this may be one of those common questions from new players, and it will be helpful for AMAers to be able to point where they can go to buy them instead of explaining this convoluted process or how bad of a mistake they made making a caster as their first PC in the first place.

Advice to pick a different class is something I wish to avoid giving to a new player at all costs, but we continue to press into a realm of making some of these old classes borderline unsupported and I can only listen to a new player tell me how they keeping getting killed in a level 0 dungeon so much.

[CCZane]

So one can summon a human and cast buffs on them no problem, but for some reason a boar is immune to them. Are all summons now immune to all magic then? RP wise this makes NO sense.

I am not talking about balance here, nor do I claim to know how to fix summons because people think they are broken or whatnot.

Just stating that on this RP server I can now not cast my own spells on my own summons because....... reasons? It is not understandable.

My character has no reason to not be able to. Just some message that pops up on the window that says "this spell cant be cast on summons." Why? Is some deity preventing me from doing it? Is all of Arelith an anti buffing your summons magic zone?

Again I am not speaking about balance. Just how it feels as a player.

[Sombricimos]

Why are Animal compagnion from Ranger/druid concerned by this when they are explicitly marked as NOT being a SUMMON in the wiki, lore and pretty much everywhere else?

On a similar note, why would any animals recrutied via Animal Empathy (considered as henchman) not be affected by this nerf while the animal compagnion is. Animal compagnion is an animal from the material plane, just like any animal recruted with Animal Empathy

[Irongron]

I really do like the icons the team made, and even though the 2x2 size is the same as would be required for 4 scrolls of the same, and less than would be required for wands of the same, I can't pretend this isn't an issue.

We have, by the addition of containers and larger stack sizes greatly reduced the required inventory space overall, but with more sequencers almost certainly on the way, this issue will only get worse.

Either we'll look at the size of these items, or add extra slots elsewhere, either by new containers or a generic player bag, limited to 1 per character.

[Scylon]

Why are Animal compagnion from Ranger/druid concerned by this when they are explicitly marked as NOT being a SUMMON in the wiki, lore and pretty much everywhere else?

On a similar note, why would any animals recrutied via Animal Empathy (considered as henchman) not be affected by this nerf while the animal compagnion is. Animal compagnion is an animal from the material plane, just like any animal recruted with Animal Empathy

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Summoning_Ch ... _Familiars

It actually will stop ranger from being able to buff his animal.

[Skibbles]

Either we'll look at the size of these items, or add extra slots elsewhere, either by new containers or a generic player bag, limited to 1 per character.

This is so wonderful to hear, thank you.