Summon Buff Changes

[Kalthariam]

I appreciate the information, however I'm still highly concerned about -how- frail the Fire elementals are.

90 hp a round will not keep an elemental alive if they are fighting 4-5 mobs that all hit on average of 20+ damage. Even hasted double casting it in defensive stance, the elementals one or two unfortunate back to back crits away from just being dead, then you immediately after because you're in melee range spam healing it. Not to mention at 20+ Dungeons lots of mobs like to infinitely cast IGMS, while enemies are bashing your elemental.

For lower level content I could see how that would work, but my unwarded elemental would not survive the spriggans area of the game very long even with me constantly healing it, anything that can crit for 100+ (Which I've run into quite alot) will rapidly completely murder your elemental. Heck I think in the underdark the Grimlocks writ which isn't even a level 20 writ has mobs that can crit near 100 damage.

If I could increase their maximum HP and caster regeneration on the elemental, I could see this is a somewhat viable strategy for doing things like exploring the Deugar Fortress and getting access to their library (Which was a normal thing I could do before this change) but as it stands now, a pack double spawning deugar wizards is game over due to low health pools, and them spamming IGMS, and that's not even counting the melee Deugar combatants that do respectable damage themselves.

[Thron]

On tougher stuff bring out your bigger heals, keep them overhealed, etc. I bring an unbuffed fire elemental to do things like endless battlefield and earls... once you're in epics you can swap to Planar conduit which is just an insane spell buffed or not. If you're worried about IGMS, this change came with a sequencer that basically makes your summons immune to magic.

I know it can be done cause I've leveled two healer clerics to 30 mostly solo and rarely buffed more than zoos

[God_In_Action]

Crazy idea but here we go:

I always thought it was boring that a supposed summoner character would just use more or less exactly the same creature over and over again. It would be much more exciting with large pool of summonable creatures, with which summoners could tailor their summoning to the situation.

Imagine a MASSIVE overhaul:

Summon spells are instead short duration, say 1 turn per 2 or 3 levels.

But instead you could use a -summoning command to pick what you would summon, and summons instead used a library of existing Arelith monsters. Each spell can be used to summon a CR appropriate to the spell level. Devs create lists for what can be summoned but all they to do is categorise pre existing creatures, not design new ones.

These summons can't be buffed, as per the new plan, but as soon as the summoned creature dies the spell is refreshed and there is a short cooldown of less than 30 second before it can be cast again. So summoners can solo and be economical, but can't rely on an unbeatable summon to power through dungeons either.

I only suggest this to show that we could imagine all sorts of solutions that might be creative and fun, whilst solving Irongrons problems of overpoweful summons.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I actually agree with many of the points here. It feels messy, counter intuitive, and potentially irritating. I should, perhaps, have gone with the original development idea, and simply said 'no more magic on summons', but for now, at least, sequencers will remain.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote.

Reading this, the answer is actually quite simple though folks are going to hate you even more for it. Reduce the summon duration to 3 rounds per level and boost their power level slightly. That would give level 9 summons/planar conduit a duration of around 8 minutes assuming a 3 level dip, and extended level 8 summons around 16 minutes. Maybe add a round per level with each focus, or just two with epic focus. You could even do something for a conjuration specialist, but honestly the key spells they would lose from transmutation could all be made up for in different ways so it can't be too good.

There would be kinks to work out of course, this is a drive by suggestion on the forums after all and not a well thought out thing, but thematically at least for everything save undead and animal companions it makes sense. I'm not sure how legit of a complaint that actually is but taking it away can't do anything but help. I would nerf undead and animal companions though and let them stand as is.

This would at the very least add some strategy and thought to the process of summons, and assuming gate summons get the round bonus actually makes summoners better at that too.

Lowering duration would just lead to all casters having to take nothing but summons to complete a single dungeon there would be no creativity, the fact is you have to have a summon/tank to stop the spawns slaughtering the caster or be an infinite caster with disabling spells and damage to spam, even then it can be hit and miss.
Plus having to cast 14 summons spells and using 60+ spell components to finish a dungeon is never going to make a profit.

I played a regular old boring sorcerer, one without any summons besides gate because I had another old coa head with me playing a paladin. When he got busy in real life I would do the monks in guldorand like once per day hoping he would eventually be able to get back into it. I usually didn't kill everything, because I can get lazy, but if i was feeling froggy I had no problemo combining slow and evocation spells to nuke a random mob of ten or so to oblivion. And gate was fine for the five bosses despite being only a round per level.

Now, the monks are far from the hardest dungeon out there, but if the goal is to cut down on the solo grind in epics I think they are a good baseline of where it starts to get hard, and anything harder -should- require a group. You of all people I think would be fine, we used to fight trolls at level 8 for an easy example. Here, its 12-14, and ours were way tougher than the ones here

[chris a gogo]

True.

But not everyone are masochists' like us.

[Morgy]

In general, I find the decision to let some aoe buffs that are the same as single target work, but block single target ones, is inconsistent. I am referring specifically to the mass zoo buffs, if they are allowed then it makes little sense that the single target zoo spells are blocked. The result is essentially the same with much more issues for the player.

This is a great point. How does this improve balance? It doesn't, it just reduces QOL for players.

Consider these points:
Cost - A scroll of Mass Zoo Buff will market on average for 2.3k~ in my equations, this is far higher than normal Zoo buffs and would go on the greater Sequencer if it is reviewed for such.

Time - While the argument of QoL vs Time is often raised it is done so ignoring the preparedness of PvP this entails.
If only 1 person has to use an item to empower multiple entities you save considerable action economy.

Availability - Casters, specifically viable classes not having the Aura of vitality spell, and Lore havers can access it, even if to part of this list at cost. The lore is also 35, which is easily within reach of most builds.
It is also selectively withheld from AoV casters as the two spells on a single caster would enable a 2 round average group wide, single user, buff rotation for Zoo spells, most importantly, without cost. This has ramifications for PvP if permitted and is something I am avid about remaining as is. The only exception I can see would be the potential thematics like Cleric Domains, but even then it would likely be 1 of the Zoo spells and not all in a single domain.

The reason for these changes was to reduce summon power though, not make PvP buffing quicker. Buffing up your ancient elemental doesn't really bring much to most PvP interactions, even with a dozen single-target wards on it if done in advance.

If we want to talk about PvP balance, allowing these powerful wards to instantly buff Gate summons (already perfectly strong), should be looked at.

[Sytic]

So far, I've talked about two things:

1) This change is not fun,

2) This change was poorly implemented.

I'm now going to talk about the third and get a bit personal, because I feel like actually giving my personal account is interesting. I play a Wild Mage, already suffering due to the lack of Arcane Flux. I'm going for a little bit of an Artifice/Mad Scientist vibe with her, but am repeatedly constrained by my Spell Slots and Prepared Spells: At the content I am at (level 16) my 1-3 level Damage spells do not outdo my Infinicast Burning Hands, neither does a fair chunk of my 4-5 damage spells. But that's okay. I had expected that.

My goal was to make a Buff Caster. I wanted to help others, by preparing buffs. My goal was to go into Loremaster so I had access to every single buff eventually through Lore. I was super excited.

I can no longer solo content. I live in Australia, where my timezone and school life leave me unable to find consistent parties unless it's the weekend and I stay up late into the morning. This isn't "wah woe is me" this isn't "i am bad at videogames and cannot adapt to the times", it is cold, hard, facts. They stated that rebalancing would have to occur, well, I have prepared spell slots, and sweet F.A. to work with them with. I have so little spell slots compared to the damaging raw power of the Invoker that it is actually laughable. if I was say, an Invoker, I could still solo content. Send in a dumb summon, nuke them once they aggro it, done.

A 14th level Elementalist can cast a lot of spells per rest. The Focus pool recharges to 75 on a rest. More specifically, they can cast 75 automatically quickened third-level spells if they alternate between them, per rest. I can cast four per rest. Maybe eight if I have some Metamagic. And I need Haste or Quickened Spell to cast the same amount of spells an Invoker does per round.

My character was designed to be a buff caster, their damage output relied on Summons because I had no other mechanical option. I do not have Arcane Flux, and I thought this'd be okay, because I was using buffs and Burning Hands. It'd be okay. Not the best, but okay. My buffs to my party would make up for it. And in the worst possible case scenario, my buffs to my SUMMON would mean I would still be outputting consistent damage.

I cannot play this character solo.

This character is relegated to walking behind my teammates as they kill everything, and casting some buffs every rest or so. My spells are significantly limited, and I have no damaging potential anymore. If my teammates brought their own buffs, or if there is a Cleric, I am redundant.

This is why transparency and open-ness is important: I am completely shafted by this update, and I have no recourse. Transparency tells me, that I will be cared for, I will be considered, and I will get to have fun again. Until then, I cannot play this character in a mechanical capacity worth much of anything, and that super sucks, mate.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Time to roll up some fighters, everyone.

(nothing is mechanically sacred on Arelith, this should've been clear a small lifetime ago. you gotta learn to roll with the punches.)

What bothers me more and more is the sheer mechanical complexity. This is a 'new' thing to learn and understand - and because things aren't always well-documented outside of Discord, this makes it difficult (for me) to approach Arelith.

I can't play the game anymore without alt-tabbing to a wiki every hour or so to look up a new thing. Thank god I have the map burned into my brain, because that's one thing that lets me survive.

[MissEvelyn]

I've already given my feedback on the change, so it would be a moot point to repeat that.

Instead, I'd like to give a few ideas for those of us who are unsure of how to translate this change into In Character change. This post is going to be entirely directed towards roleplayers and the RP aspect of it, just to be clear.

Arelith has long been different than from the mainland*. Low-level spells are treated as epic spells (see Scry and Teleport as examples), trivial cantrips that work on the mainland don't work on Arelith, nearly everyone who dies always comes back to life, and so on and so forth.

We as players have always been able to discuss and ponder in-game IC why there are differences between Arelith and the rest of Faerûn.

Instead of angrily demanding that the devs - who already put SO much volunteer work into this server out of their busy schedules - give us answers, why not take this as a roleplaying opportunity to discover why magic has changed on the isle overnight.
There is so much rich scholar roleplay potential. And while I entirely disagree with this change, I don't think that entitles me to be demanding and abrasive.

Let's take this in stride, and make the best of it. Again, I'm directing this towards the RP aspect, and not the mechanical - which very much deserves its place in the discussion.


* To be clear, "mainland" refers to Faerûn, which is a mainland. Unlike Arelith, which is an archipelago.

[-XXX-]

We're talking about magic in a fantasy makebelief world setting here. Perhaps some suspension of disbelief would've been warranted.

Should an absolute need for an IC explanation arise nonetheless, I'd be personally inclined to suggest that the spellcaster might be struggling with precision required for minor single target buff spells while controling a powerful entity conjured from a distant place (plane even).

Similar concepts are not entirely unprecedented even as far as already existing spells go (see Black Blade of Disaster).

[IanPatron]

My excuse was going to be "Mystra is a bitch and she screwed us over, that's why."

[Nurel]

First off thank you Irongron for a thorough response

Second, this is a very diverse game and people /will/ eventually find ways to play around the change and do just as well as they did before.

But I still feel I need to play the broken record and repeat myself as regarding to the new player experience

While I was not here for the implementation of Lore change, it did strike me as a very meaningful change as a new player. Lore change makes a great impression to new players.

Summons change, I am not so sure. I believe it is going to make a very bad impression to new players who want to buff their spider, etc.

What I suggest:

Allow for player buffs to affect Natural summons, and make Supernatural summons unable to be buffed. This way a new player may buff all their summons up to Bear, and then whenever they lvl up enough to use Elementals and epic summoning feats and whatnot, they will be ready to play without buffs on their summons.

Again, the suggestion is aimed to ease new players into this change, as it is an unorthodox change and will be met with contempt by your standard lvl 2 new player wizard PC who has no idea of the reasoning behind it.

e: to those suggesting the same thing, excuse the lack of quotations. I am typing in a hurry on my break

[Kilnasaggart]

why not take this as a roleplaying opportunity to discover why magic has changed on the isle overnight. There is so much rich scholar roleplay potential.

Sure, however I beg to very politely disagree for past characters. So I sent my epic summoner / epic transmuter to be collared in Andunor. The plan was to integrate one House closest to the Syndicate, and then try to murder Duvain, revenge of Shyr Farm and Greyhammer, and Bendir forever (h/t Mia ). The bloke was known as a "summoner" and "planer walker".
In 24h, the man discovers that his summons loses 18 to their AC. Can't go to Pandemonium or Zanshibon or Avernus, can't go to any Lowerdark. Sees 90% of the hard places he was going to be shut to him, and then wondered what the heck am I to sell now to a Matron - apart crafting all day long templates, so that they or I could cast spells through a complex toy that I could have cast simply only twenty four hours earlier.

Please do not misunderstanding me, it's no "rant". It's absolutely normal that these slaads or eladrins would get nerfed so much it had become stupidly imbalanced. Still it means to me that ten months of RP just went to the dustbin, with no potential remediation. I can hear people saying "you shan't have been allowed to solo the hardest places around at the first place", but letting me built it all for nearly a year, and shutting it in a day, is difficult to cope with. It just means re-rolling (but what for ?), and unfinished RP business.

There were so many light-touch ways to address the issue, most of which have been mentioned (alas, the solution is not about "grouping", my personal experience over the past eleven months is that it's on the contrary quite hard to group).

A last point, I said earlier that Arelith was looking more and more like a game on its own, and less and less like standard NWN. In itself it is great as it reflects the staff's creativity and create opportunities, but it looks to me that it comes at the cost of ever increasing complexity. I'm flaggerbasted by the level of knowledge of most participants here, who can optimize things up to the last +1 and even create builds based onto precise items. But many people like myself or newcomers just can't. Another issue which comes with it is that the technical set-up is often not stable over time (for example here, the staff will still need to cope with AoE spells, it can't work as it stands). I can only suggest more simplicity and, most importantly, stability. Arelith is superb enough when it comes to new classes or technicalities.

A question which has not been asked yet : what about specialized summoners ? Will they keep their perma-haste and SR ?

[-XXX-]

Ok, I'd like to address the PC here, as things have obviously changed with this update. The main attribute that makes these summons stand out when compared to others is their high AB, but I don't think there's anything wrong with PC power level-wise in its unbuffed state.

From what I noticed, the stress point number for AB in PvE is 41. Many endgame bosses have AC60 and at AB 41 the pets start landing hits on attack rolls other than natural 20. (unbuffed PC summons have AB 42)
While designing summons with lower AB to serve more as a meat shield than a source of damage is certainly a valid approach, we should also acknowledge the fact that many of these monsters have well over 2000hp, regeneration and/or other means of healing alongside various resistances and/or immunities, so expecting a spellcaster to defeat such monstrosity while relying solely on their limited spell list while their pets are flailing at it ineffectually might not be an entirely reasonable ask here.

That's why I think that with the recent changes the PC remains still viable without being overpowered anymore (which I'm certain that many players are going to consider a hot take and something they still disagree with - which is fine). The numbers might need to get tweaked still, but I wouldn't say by much.

The other summons however could certainly use a larger overhaul (summon creature line and undead - especially in the AB department), because unlike PC they have apparently been designed with all the potential buffs in mind.
Furthermore in case of Mummy Dust I'd be concious of the Necromancer specialist (once again so that undead summons are not left to languish in the realm of mediocrity for the sake of one class that can buff them more than everyone else) - especially now that the summon sequencers have given them a means to bypass their most prominent downside (as they can now give their pets see invisibility/true seeing - spells normally forbidden to them).

[Distant Relation]

"Now that we're done nerfing every summon, let's buff every summon except Conduit so we reach the net effect of nerfing just Conduit" sounds like the exact thing some have have been saying is excessive and should just have been a targeted nerf to what makes Conduit stand out above the pack. :/

[-XXX-]

"Now that we're done nerfing every summon, let's buff every summon except Conduit so we reach the net effect of nerfing just Conduit" sounds like the exact thing some have have been saying is excessive and should just have been a targeted nerf to what makes Conduit stand out above the pack. :/

And that would've been incorrect, because various class kits had not been equal in how much they were able to buff their summons. Ultimately you'd have ended up with PC being fair and balanced for a handful of cleric builds while becoming weak and underperforming for everybody else.
Most other summons have been on the underperforming side already anyway. I remain optimistic as this update opened up a massive previously closed design space for interesting and cool summon overhauls that might happen in the future.

Personally I'd want to see stuff like actually useful air elementals for a change rather than being merely content that some evangelist player can't solo Abazuur while checking instagram on their phone anymore.

[Paint]

The more I play with the new summon changes at low levels, the more I appreciate them. Things are just more convenient. I am incentivized to go out and gather things more, or at least to stop and gather at every spot I see various materials at, but that has been less of a problem than I thought it would be.

My summons feel weaker, but they're not so weak that I feel like I'm struggling.

[Hazard]

It's not even the summon nerf that bothers me. It's just super uninuitive that a large amount of your own spells don't work on your own summon and you need to craft/buy things to do what you should be able to do with the spells you already know.

It just seems ... wrong? I come here for a forgotten realms-esque 3.5 experience as advertised. That includes like, wizards and stuff. Now it feels as if all the casters are a type of artificer.

Surely there's a better way to go about this than disabling spells from working properly? If the sequencer just lets you cast the same spells anyway, why even disable them in the first place? Why not let players choose whether they want to use spell slots for buffs, or free up spell slots by carrying sequencers around so that they can spend more slots on pewpew or something?

Am I missing something? Am I crazy?

[Arienette]

It's not even the summon nerf that bothers me. It's just super uninuitive that a large amount of your own spells don't work on your own summon and you need to craft/buy things to do what you should be able to do with the spells you already know.

It just seems ... wrong? I come here for a forgotten realms-esque 3.5 experience as advertised. That includes like, wizards and stuff. Now it feels as if all the casters are a type of artificer.

Surely there's a better way to go about this than disabling spells from working properly? If the sequencer just lets you cast the same spells anyway, why even disable them in the first place? Why not let players choose whether they want to use spell slots for buffs, or free up spell slots by carrying sequencers around so that they can spend more slots on pewpew or something?

Am I missing something? Am I crazy?

What your missing is the fact that you can’t “cast the same spells anyway.” You can cast a very limited number of spells assigned to the sequencer. Where as before your cleric might have used spells, scrolls and potions and wands to cast a full set of zoo spells, Barkskin, shield, mage armor, aid, armor of faith, bless weapon, improved Invis, mind blank, NEP, death ward, mind blank, protection from evil, haste, freedom of movement and a half dozen other spells for a total of 20+, now you can only apply 4 or 6 limited buffs from a specific predetermined list, plus any AOE spells you might have.

[Hazard]

It's not even the summon nerf that bothers me. It's just super uninuitive that a large amount of your own spells don't work on your own summon and you need to craft/buy things to do what you should be able to do with the spells you already know.

It just seems ... wrong? I come here for a forgotten realms-esque 3.5 experience as advertised. That includes like, wizards and stuff. Now it feels as if all the casters are a type of artificer.

Surely there's a better way to go about this than disabling spells from working properly? If the sequencer just lets you cast the same spells anyway, why even disable them in the first place? Why not let players choose whether they want to use spell slots for buffs, or free up spell slots by carrying sequencers around so that they can spend more slots on pewpew or something?

Am I missing something? Am I crazy?

What your missing is the fact that you can’t “cast the same spells anyway.” You can cast a very limited number of spells assigned to the sequencer. Where as before your cleric might have used spells, scrolls and potions and wands to cast a full set of zoo spells, Barkskin, shield, mage armor, aid, armor of faith, bless weapon, improved Invis, mind blank, NEP, death ward, mind blank, protection from evil, haste, freedom of movement and a half dozen other spells for a total of 20+, now you can only apply 4 or 6 limited buffs from a specific predetermined list, plus any AOE spells you might have.

Alright, so it's worse than I thought .. but of the spells that can be cast by sequencer, why do those same spells not work when cast by a character?

edit: Actually, I'm a little confused by your reply because a lot of the spells you listed are cast by sequencers.

[AstralUniverse]

Alright, so it's worse than I thought .. but of the spells that can be cast by sequencer, why do those same spells not work when cast by a character?

It sucks and I agree with you and it's just going to join the list of unintuitive things we need to do for the sake of the game, because it's a game, with limitations.

Just for perspective, we need to RP within a world where everything we kill respawns. No paladin manages to close the benwick rift. It's like a static time bubble that only goes through large scale changes by admins every once in a while to represent what on-going trends of all of us combined cause in the world. It's a game, it's a reality we got used to. From game-play perspective It makes no sense that monsters wouldnt respawn, even though thematically it's the peak of Mount Unintuitive.

I dont think the summons change is more unintuitive than many other things we need to just accept.

[Hazard]

Alright, so it's worse than I thought .. but of the spells that can be cast by sequencer, why do those same spells not work when cast by a character?

It sucks and I agree with you and it's just going to join the list of unintuitive things we need to do for the sake of the game, because it's a game, with limitations.

Just for perspective, we need to RP within a world where everything we kill respawns. No paladin manages to close the benwick rift. It's like a static time bubble that only goes through large scale changes by admins every once in a while to represent what on-going trends of all of us combined cause in the world. It's a game, it's a reality we got used to. From game-play perspective It makes no sense that monsters wouldnt respawn, even though thematically it's the peak of Mount Unintuitive.

I dont think the summons change is more unintuitive than many other things we need to just accept.

Yeah..

Except, I disagree. I think this is a lot more unintuitive than many other things we just accept. The monsters respawning, benwicks rift, all those things are like .. 'the server' you know? It just isn't realistic to expect the whole world to adapt to everything we do, and neither would it be fair. We don't have that technology, and it would suck to go to bed and wake up and your town was deleted by a pissed off wizard.

But spells have worked up until now, and now they don't and it's intentional. I don't think this is going to be 'a thing I just accept'.

Does what I'm saying make sense to anyone but me? Bull's Strength does work when cast on a summon. It was made to not work intentionally. That change seems odd.

We didn't need to code in some method of preventing people from closing the Benwick rift, and if the monsters didn't respawn it would be just as weird- because shouldn't there be more? I don't see any of these things as comparable to just .. partially disabling spells characters already know.

[AstralUniverse]

Yeah maybe my example wasnt really the peak of mount unintuitive but I still think the spells part is within the same boat as other things which are "it's a game thing...". And when I say game limitation I also refer to balance, not just coding limitations.

[Skibbles]

It is highly unintuitive, maybe even anti-intuitive as it seems to defy every known convention of games I've played, and one of the things I don't like about it (at least with the animal companion I just tried) is that when the spell fails the prompt doesn't even give you a hint at how to get magic on your summon.

It would be nice if at least the prompt said something about needing a sequencer, or some device.

I think things would have made a lot more sense, and been 'balancable', if all the streams and so on were removed and each class was given a unique summon appropriate to the class and balanced around the spellbook of said class (wands and scrolls not possible, just the spells that can be learned and prepared and directly cast). That way it is always known exactly what buffs a summon would receive and adjust accordingly while also preserving what makes far more sense to the average player.

[Griefmaker]

I think things would have made a lot more sense, and been 'balancable', if all the streams and so on were removed and each class was given a unique summon appropriate to the class and balanced around the spellbook of said class (wands and scrolls not possible, just the spells that can be learned and prepared and directly cast). That way it is always known exactly what buffs a summon would receive and adjust accordingly while also preserving what makes far more sense to the average player.

I was kind of thinking along the same line of thought.

Have each summon with a specific set of stats which can be balanced around, but which cannot be buffed at all (that includes mass spells, sequencers, etc.). The summon is its own "spell" after a fashion which the caster is able to control and include in his/her repertoire of tools to help do damage to the enemy and to help keep pressure off the caster who likely is as durable as a wet piece of paper.

Stronger summons can have more DR, regen, SR, concealment, whatever. But instead of getting a rat, boar, dire wolf, etc. up to elementals, planar summons, and planar conduit (each with different properties and strengths and weaknesses), each caster chooses a skin for their "universal" summon (sort of like how totem druids and totem rangers reskin their creatures).

However, no matter what the skin, no matter if cast by a cleric, wizard, druid, warlock, whatever...the summons have the same stats depending on what summon spell is cast and they cannot be buffed through spells and the like.

It would suck to do this since it would be work, but I think it would be a far more elegant solution than the sequencers and all of that, at least if we do not revert things back to how they were. Plus, I could bend my mind around the RP of a summon being something like an astral creature temporarily summoned to the Prime Material Plane and that bond prevents any beneficial magic from being cast on the creature.