Great Smiting I-V is too weak for PvE no fun

[Helsing]

Epic weapon spec is +4 damage to every attack per round, Great Smite is +10 damage(align sensitive) to one hit every 3/1.5 min (30/15 round)…

I know the nerf of change it from +30 to +10 per feat is for PvP but this game is not just PvP, can we make this feat reasonably fun for PvE too?

Just revert the smite change for PvE and let us smite monsters happily plz.

Edit: and plz don’t reply with your 400 crit meme because without taking Great smiting you can still crit pretty high number. Math and number is welcomed if you don’t agree it’s bad in PvE.

[Kalopsia]

Smites also didn't replenish before the rework, so you'd get 3 big numbers per rest. Now you get somewhat smaller numbers every 1.5min. That's not a bad trade-off.

[Paint]

I dunno. I'm gonna reply with my smite crit meme anyways because I think it's: Relevant, an advantage of using Smite regularly in PVE. Hitting 240s on critsmites in PVE with my 20 CoT feels pretty great. Being instant, It allows you to apply pressure to specific enemies -- like casters -- who you occasionally want to burn down faster than everything else, so if you pick up Extra Smiting, you always have something to shift the balance of any given PVE fight pretty quickly.

See, the benefit of Smite isn't consistent damage improvement; it's very rapid burst damage when you need it. Not only does it increase your AB anywhere from +6 to +12 or +15(If you're insane), but it deals a bunch of additional damage? Dang. I don't think I have a single build where I'd take Great Smiting V, but I can see investing to Great Smiting I or II easily.

If you're looking for a straight damage upgrade, yeah, Great Smiting isn't the thing you pick. But uh, smite crit memes. They're real, man.

[Helsing]

Smites also didn't replenish before the rework, so you'd get 3 big numbers per rest. Now you get somewhat smaller numbers every 1.5min. That's not a bad trade-off.

I'm not saying new Smite is bad, it's the Great Smiting feats that I think shall get some love for PvE contents. Before rework Smite is very bad for a MMO game because it's per rest and without meta knowledge you waste it on no evil mobs. And now it's fine, However Great Smiting, as a feat to improve smite, is not scales enough for PvE contents. Let's talk about PER FEAT gain here.

1. Let's assuming you normally kill mobs vary from LE to CE, so your average smite damage is 80% to 100%, let's say 90% on average, with picking ONE Great Smiting you gain 9 damage for divine smite, and for end-game mobs which has hundreds and thousands of hp, is 9 damage gain a good improvement? Even considering it's a way to burst your damage, gain another 9 damage is very bad.

2. Requirement is high for little burst improvement. You need 25 CHA to pick this feat. So usually only CoT is suitable for a heavy smiter, if you go deep CHA deep paladin/bg/warpriest, it will heavily hinder your AB.

IMHO, it shall be made more effcient with PvE content, or reduce the CHA requirement. I just don't understand why would I pick a feat that gives me +9 damage every 30/15 rounds... And only works properly for a specific class... Please convince me to put all attributes in CHA and pick Great Smiting on a non-CoT so i can burst 9 more damage every 3/1.5 min...

[With Darkness and Silence]

Paladins are literally a class designed to win against players of an evil alignment to begin with.

Now it's designed to be better than players of a chaotic good, chaotic neutral, or any evil alignment. It's quite funny to me how chaotic neutral was set up to take the second most damage. Conveniently so, I suppose, but why tf are paladins smiting people of neutral and good alignment? Because people complained they couldn't.

Now you can. But if you wanted to be really good at pve? Drop the paladin class, become a character with a summon.

[-XXX-]

Paladins are tanks - they have superior AC, incredibly high saves, various immunities and even access to heal.
Can't expect them to be dishing out the same punishment as dedicated two-hander DPS melee builds (who have almost none of the above).

As someone who's played a vanilla great smite build on Arelith in the past, I can say that I'd have gladly given up 3x/day stupendous damage* for less damage max AB instanteous free attacks on a cooldown.


The cooldown vs. use/day change is the single most important PvE improvement for paladins IMO:
Back when smite used to be use/day I ended up almost never using it in PvE, because it was always

"not yet, not yet, I can manage, don't want to be left hanging without it when things get hairy."

Ultimately the character ended up performing just as a lackluster fighter with half dozen dead epic feats that weren't relevant 99% of the time.


-----
*yes, even one-rounding Abazuur and point-click winning PvP encounters simply because the opponent chose the "wrong" alignment can get a little dull after a while.

[Helsing]

As someone who's played a vanilla great smite build on Arelith in the past, I can say that I'd have gladly given up 3x/day stupendous damage* for less damage max AB instanteous free attacks on a cooldown.

To clarify this, Divine Smite is not max AB free attack.

Lets say your ab with haste for the round is 0/-5/-10/-15/0 (haste), and you use divine smite, it would become 0/-5/-10/-15/0/-5 (haste and divine smite) and it EATs up your bonus attack in the next round so next round it becomes 0/-5/-10/-15, no another 0 attack.

So it's neither necessarily max ab attack, nor its a free attack. You borrow from next round.

And...again..my point of the thread is not new verison of smite is bad, but Great Smiting is not worth to take with the new design, state requirement is too strict, and the gain is too little.

The old Great smiting is worth picking if you want to one shot evil ppls in pvp, the new Great smiting you cannot get as high damage as the old one, and is not good for pve, so it is bad.

Let's say IF the new Great Smiting has 21 CHA requiprement, what builds can we make? We can have a STR Vengeance Pally take Great Smiting I-IV without go deep cha to hinder ab a lot. He can cast holysword to replenish smite on hit, for constantly smiting for a good DPS improvement in PvE. Or if the Great Smiting has 20 dam/per feat against PvE mobs, then it's much better for PvE contents than it is now.

[Helsing]

Now you can. But if you wanted to be really good at pve? Drop the paladin class, become a character with a summon.

This is definitely true, solo with paladin is a painful experience in PvE, and I believe this is also true for all more tanky classes without summons. That's why i would suggest to give them some better way to increase dps in PvE, however the current Great Smiting feat tree is definitely not worth taking atm.

[Kalopsia]

Something to consider from a PvE standpoint is that Divine Might and Shield have a greater and longer-lasting effect for high CHA (i.e. smite) builds, while the AB sacrifice is less impactful. I think the current implementation is fine as is.


I'd also recommend having a look at the smite damage table (https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Template:Fe ... vine_Smite) when it comes to smites against non-evil alignments. For reference, if the smiter is a Paladin (LG):
- CN targets take 60% smite bonus damage,
- LE targets take 80% smite bonus damage,
- NE targets take 90% smite bonus damage,
- CE targets take 100% smite bonus damage, and
- CG targets would take just 20% bonus damage.

There's also a small randomized component to blur the lines between these percentages, thereby making alignment metagaming more difficult.

[Nurel]

Base Cha25 is kinda unattainable by deep CoT characters in the current meta.

I would not say Great Smiting is a bad ability, but currently its an extremely rigid build option for CoT, and likely for everyone else too.

PCs who are specced for Great Smiting are falling behind in the AB race. Of course, they used to be gods for a few rounds before the Divine Wrath nerf... but now they are left wanting.

If you plan to make a Cha25 character hoping to get value for it from Great Smiting, I would advise against it atm. Used to be the ultimate PvP glass cannon, now is not.

I don't think Great Smiting is worthwhile for any PvE oriented character either.

[With Darkness and Silence]

Something to consider from a PvE standpoint is that Divine Might and Shield have a greater and longer-lasting effect for high CHA (i.e. smite) builds, while the AB sacrifice is less impactful. I think the current implementation is fine as is.


I'd also recommend having a look at the smite damage table (https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Template:Fe ... vine_Smite) when it comes to smites against non-evil alignments. For reference, if the smiter is a Paladin (LG):
- CN targets take 60% smite bonus damage,
- LE targets take 80% smite bonus damage,
- NE targets take 90% smite bonus damage,
- CE targets take 100% smite bonus damage, and
- CG targets would take just 20% bonus damage.

There's also a small randomized component to blur the lines between these percentages, thereby making alignment metagaming more difficult.

My mistake. I thought it was purely based upon steps away from Lawful Good. It bothered me a CN would take more than an LE if that were the case, but it appears not to be.

[Helsing]

Something to consider from a PvE standpoint is that Divine Might and Shield have a greater and longer-lasting effect for high CHA (i.e. smite) builds, while the AB sacrifice is less impactful. I think the current implementation is fine as is.

If you wanna do a Deep Cha Paladin. A Str Pal usually have around 50-51 AB (25 base + 13/14 str + 3 weapon focus + 1 epic prowess + 5 bless weapon + 2 pal + 1 aid = 50/51). Swap to CHA you lose like 4-5(might no have enough feat for epic prowess) ab so you only have 45-46 AB which is on same the level of a Rogue, is very bad ab.

Agreed that high CHA has high AC, however, there's more way to increase AC than there's to increase AB, expertise make it flexible to convert ab/ac, but a max of 46 ab for deep CHA pal you have no way to increase it, and 46 ab is not considered high in current system. Fighters have 52, Clerics has more than 55.

Therefore the AB sacrifice is actually huge and impactful because you have no way to increase it like AC (expertise). And less AB means lower damage, lower damage means slower combats, for a class which already struggle in PvE more than others.

So the only viable dep CHA build is still only CoT, and I hate it's shortterm windup so never have a chance to play one.

[AstralUniverse]

Great smite feats were stronger than they are right now, they were nerfed slightly at first, and then nerfed again because it wasnt enough. Why are we even discussing about buffing them back again...

[MissEvelyn]

Great Smiting feats do require a lot of Charisma investment. I don't think it would break the game if each feat investment gave you a soft +1 to AB if the majority of your levels are Paladin.

[Helsing]

Great smite feats were stronger than they are right now, they were nerfed slightly at first, and then nerfed again because it wasnt enough. Why are we even discussing about buffing them back again...

I’m curious why they were nerfed, it doesn’t seem to be a strong feat, at least not in PvE environments.

If it was nerfed for PvP, like Cavalier Charge due to the hate to burst damage, I think it's a bad idea because the majority of us plays PvE, if a feat is useless in PvE and only works in Arena, nobody in real server will take it, only PGCC ones will.

Again my point, the Great Smiting feat tree is not fun/useful for PvE.

[Sincra]

We balance PvP first then PvE after.

The reasoning?
PvP is allowed, and is a method of changing the world without anothers consent beyond playing on the server.
As the above is true, and I would hate for it to change, we do our best to catch outlying cases or unwanted situations and bring them back into the realm of viability for counters.

[AstralUniverse]

Great Smiting feats do require a lot of Charisma investment. I don't think it would break the game if each feat investment gave you a soft +1 to AB if the majority of your levels are Paladin.

Yes, it would break the game lol

[Helsing]

Ironically Great Smiting serves to be PvP focus feats, and for paladins who want to pick them, they have to sacrifice a lot AB and feats to pick them. Making them weaker in PvP lol. Yeah you have more AC from divine shield because of high CHA, but you cannot hit anything with low AB so finally you run out of resource and die. If you expect smite to carry you, no sorry the damage is low. While I’m doubt the design but it’s up to balance team.

I have given enough reasons why these feats fails both in PvE and PvP. If Devs still think they are in good position, all I can do is forget these feats then, have no rooms to spare on these anyway.

[Helsing]

For a basic 6 ftr/4 pal/20 cot build, one have 6 epic feats, feats required to take is Armor Skin, EWS, ESF:discipline, EWSpec is very good as it gives constant 4 dam boost, and only two Great Smiting might be take if he don’t need Great CHA to even his stats.

So I still didn’t get it why patch Great Smiting 3 and 4 are also nerfed to 10 dam per feat, even the most suitable class combo won’t take GS 3 and 4. Very questionable patches. Is that devs only see the big numbers but not aware of how much tax one pay for taking these feats?

[-XXX-]

So I still didn’t get it why patch Great Smiting 3 and 4 are also nerfed to 10 dam per feat, even the most suitable class combo won’t take GS 3 and 4. Very questionable patches. Is that devs only see the big numbers but not aware of how much tax one pay for taking these feats?

Had it been more than 10 dmg per feat, then going deep on great smiting would allow players to one-shot people and they'd start taking these feats again.
Even in the current form it's still possible to smite crit for ~300 dmg. Just a slight bump to 15 damage per feat would then allow for certain builds to smite crit a toon for its hp total (and that's completely disregarding any potential dps coming from the other melee attacks that round).

The issue here is the heavy build investment that pushes the final outcome of a smiter build into absolutes - it's either going to be either stupidly OP or a trap. Unfortunately the latter is preferable for the sake of overall PvP and class balance.


Perhaps dropping the CHA requirement and lowering the damage to something like 3-4 per great smiting feat would have been the way to go.

[Kalopsia]

For a basic 6 ftr/4 pal/20 cot build, one have 6 epic feats, feats required to take is Armor Skin, EWS, ESF:discipline, EWSpec is very good as it gives constant 4 dam boost, and only two Great Smiting might be take if he don’t need Great CHA to even his stats.

20 CoT is rather disadvantageous for a smite build because of the CoT bonus feat progression after level 10.

Ideally, you'd want to push as many bonus feats as possible into epics. Have a look at 10 fighter, 5 Paladin, 15 CoT for instance. This build should have enough epic feats to max out smites without missing out on essentials.

[AstralUniverse]

Have a look at 10 fighter, 5 Paladin, 15 CoT for instance.

This setup used to be 'good' (smiters were awful in general tho) back when harper paragon had tumble.

These days I think I'd go for something like 16 paladin (vengeance), already giving 3 free feats and one of them being great smite 1, then 10 cot and 4 lvls of whatever flavor of tumble dip or loremaster you like. bonus cookie for having majority paladin levels for some scalings.

[Helsing]

Had it been more than 10 dmg per feat, then going deep on great smiting would allow players to one-shot people and they'd start taking these feats again.

Sorry I didn't get you on this, if a feat is not designed to be taken, why they exist in first place? If the team is afraid of these feats are taken again, better is just remove these imho. Smite can be either op or trash, so I think reduce CHA requirement might be safer than changing damage.

lowering the damage to something like 3-4 per great smiting feat would have been the way to go.

Well if great smiting is another 3 smite damage, I'd treat that an insult and beg the team to just delete the whole great smiting tree.

[Helsing]

Have a look at 10 fighter, 5 Paladin, 15 CoT for instance.

This setup used to be 'good' (smiters were awful in general tho) back when harper paragon had tumble.

These days I think I'd go for something like 16 paladin (vengeance), already giving 3 free feats and one of them being great smite 1, then 10 cot and 4 lvls of whatever flavor of tumble dip or loremaster you like. bonus cookie for having majority paladin levels for some scalings.

First of all i know you are a good build advisor, and I have think about the same build myself, but it still feels very chunky because 16 paladin means you have a lot pally levels but cannot cast (CL bad), 10 CoT is also pretty bad because the class prefers deep investment. I’d missing good parts of both class if I do the 16/10 split…

So I wonder why shall I do such a chunky bd to make smite work. Is great smiting or smiter in general worth me to try it out...

[-XXX-]

Sorry I didn't get you on this, if a feat is not designed to be taken, why they exist in first place? If the team is afraid of these feats are taken again, better is just remove these imho. Smite can be either op or trash, so I think reduce CHA requirement might be safer than changing damage.

The idea here is that great smiting shoehorns the player into a bad build in exchange for a single gimmick. People will usually consider doing that only if the gimmick is overpowered.

There'd be very little difference between lowering the CHA requirement and removing it altogether, in which case 10 damage per feat taken would've been too much.
Most epic feats that can be taken multiple times work in small increments - removing the CHA requirement from great smiting and having it add 3-4 damage per feat taken would have brought it more in line with feats like epic damage reduction, self concealment, great strength, etc.

Even at 3 damage a GS V would translate into extra 45 damage on a successful smite crit (assuming 20/x3 weapon), 60 at 4 dmg per GS feat taken, which doesn't sound so bad IMO.