Lycanthropy - Improved Player Experience

[Skarain]

It's supposed to be a curse not a boon, and if we make any changes to it, it'll be to better reflect that

I took some time to think on what Garrbear said. Having the curse should feel like a curse, and the experience should be awful.

While the Original Topic of the thread is to seek for an Improved Player Experience, what if we flip it upside down?

How could the Werewolf experience be a hundred times more awful, painful and just generally misserable?

.... Since if enough 'other' negatives do stack up, maybe the one thing - the constant loss of control, which prevents any meaningful interaction and input to the RP from happening with the Werewolf - could be alleviated slightly.

[fading]

It's supposed to be a curse not a boon, and if we make any changes to it, it'll be to better reflect that

I took some time to think on what Garrbear said. Having the curse should feel like a curse, and the experience should be awful.

While the Original Topic of the thread is to seek for an Improved Player Experience, what if we flip it upside down?

How could the Werewolf experience be a hundred times more awful, painful and just generally misserable?

.... Since if enough 'other' negatives do stack up, maybe the one thing - the constant loss of control, which prevents any meaningful interaction and input to the RP from happening with the Werewolf - could be alleviated slightly.

What if we just remove lycanthropy instead and give werewolf mobs "Bestow Curse." I think the loss of levels would be a great way to reflect how awful, painful and miserable an experience this is meant to be. Maybe it can only be removed with wolfbane, so you can still have the RP of getting cured. I think that's the best way to go about hammering down the appropriate theme (infection/curse and subsequent search for a cure) with the right mechanics in a streamlined and elegant manner. Would add RP, I'd argue, by removing an outdated mechanic that forces a character into a murderhobo rage, letting the player present the curse developing in ways that can be interacted with.

If there is such a strong desire to dissuade any kind of werewolf RP, then why have a system for it in the first place? Serious question. If one isn't meant to be RPing a werewolf, then the system should be changed to reflect that, I'd think.

[Ork]

The position seems to be "there will be no mechanical advantage to being a werewolf", not a dissuasion from werewolf roleplay. Truthfully, Lycanthrope could be a really cool mechanic, but it shouldn't be sought after for improving your character's pvp and pve experience.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Also the builds that "make use of werewolf" are still weaker in WW form there actual good higher tier builds, so i don't know if it is mechanically beneficial atm.

If we just dont want to be having long term were wolves, we should axe. I never played a werewolf but is be for but I always thought it was cool and spiced up life. Yeah its a curse to most but dont many malarite npcs still embrace it? Ifnwe were a neutral/good only table top campaign id really be behind the idea of people shoulda always seek a cure, but we are in a lvl 30 open any alignment sandbox where people sell their souls at lvl 3 so i am fine with reasonable malarite roleplay etc.

I am glad monk werewolf got axed though, ut would be sad to see the baby thrown out with the bath water

[garrbear758]

The position seems to be "there will be no mechanical advantage to being a werewolf", not a dissuasion from werewolf roleplay. Truthfully, Lycanthrope could be a really cool mechanic, but it shouldn't be sought after for improving your character's pvp and pve experience.

Correct.

[Definately Not A Mimic]

I thought it was changed so monk can not even be effected by the "curse". This shouldn't be able to be done any more.

[LIAR LIAR]

It's not. I'm saying if they were, it wouldn't be as bad as it once was.

[Apothys]

I thought it was changed so monk can not even be effected by the "curse". This shouldn't be able to be done any more.

You are correct pure monks cannot become WWs. In fact any build with monk in it is forbidden to be a werewolf.

[Azensor]

Just going to bump this post instead of making a new one.

You can still get softlocked onto angry trees in the malar forest

I havnt checked what happens if a npc is /above/ you on a cliff in your line of sight without a path to it but im going to assume your also softlocked in that case.

Saying its a curse and should be treated has such is fine, but at the very least dont make it cbt to even play,has in dont make it to were i have to make the choice between either waiting for the tree to kill me(which takes forever) or logging out for the next 30 minutes and hope the stupid trees dont spawn on my head again.

[Naghast]

Daily reminder that currently werewolf turns you into a mindless toothless beast/puppy that deals 26 damage at best with +0 dr piercing
(Hello ghostly/ethereal visage my old friend~)

[Sincra]

On why Lycanthropy cannot be made better in it's current iteration:
- It is a mechanic designed to represent Lycanthropy, an actual curse and affliction, Malar made it as such.
- There is a very clear distinction between true and normal forms of Thropy in both control and effectiveness.
- it used to require silver to kill and functioned as per troll fire/acic etc, this just meant everyone carried a silver weapon at all times. As such we have proof that it being stronger just necessitates pre-emptive counters on everyone.
- Furries trying to do cuddle rp if you could control it in any reliable way.
- If it was meta viable you could tag it onto every build as the cost is not being immune and attacking a Thrope.
- Wider implementation would need to include alignment ramifications as the afflictions do actually cause drifts to it.

If anything were to change, what would it look like?
- Based on the above it likely would be award based True Thropes of various types locked behind matching alignment and app or rpr likely, and also be unable to afflict others.

[Rei_Jin]

The idea of award locked true lycanthropes is cool, and I’d love to see that implemented, with the understanding that they would not be able to give anyone else lycanthropy (outside of DM events, potentially, for RP reasons, and even then, I’m talking about inflicting it on NPCs)

[Naghast]

That, sounds cool.

Kinda sad i'd be probably unable to get it on my existing character but, eh. Gotta roll someday.

[Azensor]

On why Lycanthropy cannot be made better in it's current iteration:
- It is a mechanic designed to represent Lycanthropy, an actual curse and affliction, Malar made it as such.
- There is a very clear distinction between true and normal forms of Thropy in both control and effectiveness.
- it used to require silver to kill and functioned as per troll fire/acic etc, this just meant everyone carried a silver weapon at all times. As such we have proof that it being stronger just necessitates pre-emptive counters on everyone.
- Furries trying to do cuddle rp if you could control it in any reliable way.
- If it was meta viable you could tag it onto every build as the cost is not being immune and attacking a Thrope.
- Wider implementation would need to include alignment ramifications as the afflictions do actually cause drifts to it.

If anything were to change, what would it look like?
- Based on the above it likely would be award based True Thropes of various types locked behind matching alignment and app or rpr likely, and also be unable to afflict others.

Honestly? If people wanted to have true thropes just lock it behind an app a, then leave the current iteration in.
So the idea would be you contract the current iteration of werewolf, then you rp it..put in the app and see how it goes, if someones being stupid with it should be easy enough to slap em at that stage.

And just to go back to why i bumped this thread in the first place, the current iteration can get softlocked on the 'angry trees'
in the malar forest and by softlock i mean your stuck there worging out on it until it kills you or someone comes along and puts you out of your misery. I'm not asking for the current iteration to get any buffs..just..something so it doesnt get softlocked like that.

I would test it on npcs on a un-reachable cliff but tbf I already cured it and dont have any plans on contracting it again anytime soon.

[God_In_Action]

- Furries trying to do cuddle rp if you could control it in any reliable way.

Once per X number of rounds will save vs a DC which is always the character's will save +Y? Pass the save and you regain character control until the next save, effectively giving a flat % chance for any character to regain temporary control. Might make the curse feel interactive whilst still preventing cuddle RP.

[Sincra]

I'd rather it never be controlled due to it being the affliction but that goes against the nature of fighting the inner beast curse thing I guess.

As for it getting you stuck on mobs, that's just an unfortunate outcome.
Consider it a character building event that shook your PC, or don't, eitherway you reacted as I'd hope most people would and that is curing it, sounds to me like it's incentives are pretty great to respect what is, again, a god made affliction.

And before anyone says "what about Malarite worshippers?"
Sorry! It's still the affliction!

Natural, True
Lycanthropes that contracted their condition as a hereditary trait, and could breed with other true lycanthropes to produce lycanthrope offspring. This form of lycanthropy had no cure, except occasionally a wish spell.
e.g., a werewolf born to true werewolf parents.

Afflicted, Infected
Lycanthropes that contracted their condition by being injured (usually bitten) by a true lycanthrope.

Induced
A being affected by magical items, causing them to turn into a lycanthrope. These beings could not transmit lycanthropy to others.

Cursed
A being affected by a curse, either from a spell or other means.

Lycanthropy can be spread like a disease. Sometimes a lycanthrope begins life as a normal humanoid or giant who subsequently contracts lycanthropy after being wounded by a lycanthrope. Such a creature is called an afflicted lycanthrope. Other lycanthropes are born as lycanthropes, and are known as natural lycanthropes.

Lycanthropy As An Affliction
When a character contracts lycanthropy through a lycanthrope’s bite (see above), no symptoms appear until the first night of the next full moon. On that night, the afflicted character involuntarily assumes animal form and forgets his or her own identity, temporarily becoming an NPC. The character remains in animal form, assuming the appropriate alignment, until the next dawn.

The character’s actions during this first episode are dictated by the alignment of its animal form. The character remembers nothing about the entire episode (or subsequent episodes) unless he succeeds on a DC 15 Wisdom check, in which case he becomes aware of his lycanthropic condition.

Thereafter, the character is subject to involuntary transformation under the full moon and whenever damaged in combat. He or she feels an overwhelming rage building up and must succeed on a Control Shape check (see below) to resist changing into animal form. Any player character not yet aware of his or her lycanthropic condition temporarily becomes an NPC during an involuntary change, and acts according to the alignment of his or her animal form.

A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes.

Once a character becomes aware of his affliction, he can now voluntarily attempt to change to animal or hybrid form, using the appropriate Control Shape check DC. An attempt is a standard action and can be made each round. Any voluntary change to animal or hybrid form immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate lycanthrope.

As you can see, it's not as simple as people like to make out.

[JustMonika]

I maintain that realism over enjoyment is not good game design.

Resting isn't as simple as sitting on the floor for 30 seconds, either, but we don't make players log off for eight hours so their character can have a nap and refresh their spells because that wouldn't be fun.

If we can't find a fun way of implimenting Lycanthropy, it should be removed.

[serono]

I have enjoyed curing victims of lycanthropy and the response has generally been positive as well. Please do not remove!

[AstralUniverse]

I have enjoyed curing victims of lycanthropy and the response has generally been positive as well. Please do not remove!

Yeah same here.

I understand that for most people it's a minor inconvenience and little to no enjoyment but if even a few roleplayers make lemonade from this old and wonky (and mostly harmless) system then it's worth it as is.

[DM Poppy]

I maintain that realism over enjoyment is not good game design.

Resting isn't as simple as sitting on the floor for 30 seconds, either, but we don't make players log off for eight hours so their character can have a nap and refresh their spells because that wouldn't be fun.

If we can't find a fun way of implimenting Lycanthropy, it should be removed.

You play on a RP Server where 'realism' is a factor we take into consideration with respect to established aspects of DnD Lore. Not being superior to your base form, does not mean it is useless.

A lot of people use it as a tool to RP, which is quite simply what it exists as. It is not supposed to offer you any mechanical advantages, at all. Nor is it supposed to be treated as a polymorph. The curse exists to accomidate niche RP, not PvE / PvP.

When their was a mechanical advantage to being a Werewolf, Players were all to happy to ignore the IG ramifications of being cursed in order to attain that advantage.

[Azensor]

I maintain that realism over enjoyment is not good game design.

Resting isn't as simple as sitting on the floor for 30 seconds, either, but we don't make players log off for eight hours so their character can have a nap and refresh their spells because that wouldn't be fun.

If we can't find a fun way of implimenting Lycanthropy, it should be removed.

You play on a RP Server where 'realism' is a factor we take into consideration with respect to established aspects of DnD Lore. Not being superior to your base form, does not mean it is useless.

A lot of people use it as a tool to RP, which is quite simply what it exists as. It is not supposed to offer you any mechanical advantages, at all. Nor is it supposed to be treated as a polymorph. The curse exists to accomidate niche RP, not PvE / PvP.

When their was a mechanical advantage to being a Werewolf, Players were all to happy to ignore the IG ramifications of being cursed in order to attain that advantage.

My thing is though..can anyone actually rp /in/ werewolf form? Because from what i've heard even if you build into that and have that ability its likely to just be changed/nerfed to make it harder to do.

Because rn if i make a werewolf character and try to actually rp in form..you dont, you worg out and start attacking people/npcs and get put down, thats it, thats the maximum rp experience that werewolf in its current state provides. In form, I mean yea you can rp outside of form.. what then its what, snarling? barring your teeth at someone? It just doesnt have the same weight imo.

[DM Poppy]

Werewolves can interact with other Werewolves without getting enraged. Meaning that "Packs" of Lycan can in fact engage with each other.

[Kalthariam]

Eh, I just completely avoid werewolves entirely, and don't engage with the players if I can help it.

I kinda find the whole system as equally as janky as slavery and people happily RPing as being willing slaves and happy to just be super evil and conform and seem to have no interest in trying to run away or be set free.

It's to the point there's no point in interacting with it, because it's not engaging nor compelling of RP anymore. Better off just avoiding it entirely and saving yourself the headache.

[JustMonika]

I maintain that realism over enjoyment is not good game design.

Resting isn't as simple as sitting on the floor for 30 seconds, either, but we don't make players log off for eight hours so their character can have a nap and refresh their spells because that wouldn't be fun.

If we can't find a fun way of implimenting Lycanthropy, it should be removed.

You play on a RP Server where 'realism' is a factor we take into consideration with respect to established aspects of DnD Lore. Not being superior to your base form, does not mean it is useless.

A lot of people use it as a tool to RP, which is quite simply what it exists as. It is not supposed to offer you any mechanical advantages, at all. Nor is it supposed to be treated as a polymorph. The curse exists to accomidate niche RP, not PvE / PvP.

When their was a mechanical advantage to being a Werewolf, Players were all to happy to ignore the IG ramifications of being cursed in order to attain that advantage.

I feel misunderstood, as at no point have I suggested or required any mechanical enchancements.
I'm fine with them being garbage, even though I think it's very silly from an RP perspective.
(Oh no! Joe's turned into a werewolf. Now he's far less likely to hurt me than he was before.)

My issue is with the complete lack of control. I don't know how you're supposed to be able to RP anything when mid sentence you'll find yourself doing something else. Am I running away? Am I attacking joe? Am I attacking bob? Am I dead already?

It's not good RP to be forced to attempt to belatedly emote what's happening beyond your control, and I don't know what kind of story can be told about being repeatedly and persistantly knocked unconcious a dozen times. It's immersion breaking, and not a realistic portrayal either.

[Biolab00]

I maintain that realism over enjoyment is not good game design.

Resting isn't as simple as sitting on the floor for 30 seconds, either, but we don't make players log off for eight hours so their character can have a nap and refresh their spells because that wouldn't be fun.

If we can't find a fun way of implimenting Lycanthropy, it should be removed.

You play on a RP Server where 'realism' is a factor we take into consideration with respect to established aspects of DnD Lore. Not being superior to your base form, does not mean it is useless.

A lot of people use it as a tool to RP, which is quite simply what it exists as. It is not supposed to offer you any mechanical advantages, at all. Nor is it supposed to be treated as a polymorph. The curse exists to accomidate niche RP, not PvE / PvP.

When their was a mechanical advantage to being a Werewolf, Players were all to happy to ignore the IG ramifications of being cursed in order to attain that advantage.

I feel misunderstood, as at no point have I suggested or required any mechanical enchancements.
I'm fine with them being garbage, even though I think it's very silly from an RP perspective.
(Oh no! Joe's turned into a werewolf. Now he's far less likely to hurt me than he was before.)

My issue is with the complete lack of control. I don't know how you're supposed to be able to RP anything when mid sentence you'll find yourself doing something else. Am I running away? Am I attacking joe? Am I attacking bob? Am I dead already?

It's not good RP to be forced to attempt to belatedly emote what's happening beyond your control, and I don't know what kind of story can be told about being repeatedly and persistantly knocked unconcious a dozen times. It's immersion breaking, and not a realistic portrayal either.

Lycanthropy RP isn't meant for most people.
And there's plenty of other RP that doesn't suit most people which happens that 70% of the RP directions which i've found out, doesn't suit me.

While i've not done Lycanthropy RP, i did tested once by being inflicted with the wounds and observes how it goes.
Granted, the Will saves is terribly high, to resist the temptation but, after the first full moon, you'll know the ceiling and should make effort to push your saving throws high enough, perhaps also as a form of RP to resist the urges.
I'm not sure how you're going to do it in form of RP, since i've not tried such a story telling before but i felt that it's feasible.

And once you've that high Will saves, you'll still have a 5% chance of losing control.
It's not complete lack of control because you're still going to be in control 95% of the time if you're ready for it.
And i felt that it's perfectly right. After all, even if you have sky high saving throw, Werewolf's curse still effectively grants a chance of losing control.
If you know how much Will saves you need, to resist the urge but doesn't want to work towards it.
This doesn't make sense, OOCly or ICly.

Granted, i may just be wrong but still, wrote what i felt here.