Shadowdancer Rework Brainstorming Megathread

[Svrtr]

I like the overall idea but really hope the new class features are not tied to Perform. It makes no sense that you are stronger if you can perform better. Well, shadowdancers are not really 'dancers' after all. And this will probably tax more skillpoints and gears compared to tumble, since most existing builds take tumble by default.

It also seems I'll have to click a lot of buttons with the new SD class, and with all the shadows around the combat would be chaotic. If possible I'd hope the abilities could be simplified a bit.

P.S Not about the class mechanics, but I hope we could get some IG events leading to this rework, Shar's conspiracy or something.

This is a cross over from the base PNP game where, yes, shadowdancer required perform as it was literal dancing.

But I mentioned it on the discord to you garr, but just for posterity Ill post it again here. For epic shadowlord, since it will gain less use with impermanent shadows, having it increase the duration of the shadows mildly and perhaps increase some combination the conceal, regen, ac, DR, and/or duration of shadow evade could be fitting. Granted I love shadow evade and I love regen and DR and the idea of being armored in your shadow

[Erebor]

3 things that made me play with ShadowDancer

• Hips
• Summon shadow
• One if shadow ( and the idea that improves MS as well is really nice)

For me, i don´t like pvp, so:

• HIPS and summon shadow is just to survive alone killing some monster to have some fun
• One if shadow is nice to be a nice spy and spy others people in the old fashion way.

[Helsing]

This seems to be a huge overhaul to SD as their core feature Hips and permanent shadow is changed. I suggest firstly make the new one an extra path, and if it works out fine then finally deprecate the old path, which would be less risky and less likely to make players who dislike the changes sad.

[Erebor]

You may put some paths that the shadow dancer may chose, just like paladins

[linusboyle]

I like the overall idea but really hope the new class features are not tied to Perform. It makes no sense that you are stronger if you can perform better. Well, shadowdancers are not really 'dancers' after all. And this will probably tax more skillpoints and gears compared to tumble, since most existing builds take tumble by default.

It also seems I'll have to click a lot of buttons with the new SD class, and with all the shadows around the combat would be chaotic. If possible I'd hope the abilities could be simplified a bit.

P.S Not about the class mechanics, but I hope we could get some IG events leading to this rework, Shar's conspiracy or something.

This is a cross over from the base PNP game where, yes, shadowdancer required perform as it was literal dancing.

But I mentioned it on the discord to you garr, but just for posterity Ill post it again here. For epic shadowlord, since it will gain less use with impermanent shadows, having it increase the duration of the shadows mildly and perhaps increase some combination the conceal, regen, ac, DR, and/or duration of shadow evade could be fitting. Granted I love shadow evade and I love regen and DR and the idea of being armored in your shadow

Fair enough. I just realized rogue gets perform added as a class skill on Arelith so it won't affect much I guess, if people currently taking bluff takes perform instead.

And it occurs to me this update seems to exempt SD from the roguish classes. In fact it's more of a 'bardish' class now. I'm not sure if it's a good thing, but the old rogue/SD synergy doesn't seem to be a problem imo.

[koza]

I really like proposed changes to SD class. I am just thinking about possible synergies with rougue. If new SD is going to have synergy& cool-down reduced with blinding speed and rogue AB bonus, honestly I do not see the reason to play deep rogue anymore.

Cheers

[Svrtr]

I really like proposed changes to SD class. I am just thinking about possible synergies with rougue. If new SD is going to have synergy& cool-down reduced with blinding speed and rogue AB bonus, honestly I do not see the reason to play deep rogue anymore.

Cheers

The blinding speed synergy never required rogue. It won't keep teh AB bonus as a character with a +5 or +6 weapon and all the AB bonus from the shades would, like you said, make you wonder why even play rogue if you can still get 50 AB and the shadows

[MissEvelyn]

Was this inspired by the Mesmer class from the game Guild Wars?

My concern would be that the idea is excellent, but the execution could be choppy and messy. The shadows would have to be collision-free, so as not to clog up the battlefield. Especially in a party.

Other than performance and execution being a concern, I very much like this idea and love that we're going to be tapping into the old-school D&D spirit of Shadowdancers, where the dancing is equally as important as the shadowing.

[Baron Saturday]

I definitely like general direction of the change. Some things to consider about the shadow spawning:

How much of a spawning animation do they have? An outsider- or undead-style summoning animation happening multiple times in every fight could be very distracting.

How long does it take them to get into combat once spawned without input from the player? If the player has to manually command each spawned shadow to attack or else they waste half their limited existence just standing around, I could see that getting real tiresome, real fast.

Where do they spawn? I'm assuming that, like the current shadow, they have no collision. If on top of the player, that could make targeting mechanically difficult. If offset, they might end up spawning on top of enemies, which again, can make targeting a chore. On the other hand, if they do have collision, that quickly makes for a very crowded battlefield.

I really love the idea of it, but it seems tricky to nail the correct feel.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I really don't like that more classes are getting permanent see invis. I invested 3 feats into having a lengthy invisibility, and that's meaning less and less. Would it be possible if epic spell focus: illusion would bypass passive see invis?

[garrbear758]

I'm not going to reply to everything but I promise you I am reading everything.

Just to address a few bigger concerns:

1 - This isn't going to happen anytime soon. I'd say a few months at the earliest. There's a lot of stuff that needs to be coded and heavily tested as they haven't been done on arelith previously.

2 - This will go on pgcc before it goes live.

3 - Prereqs will stay unchanged for the most part. The only change I am considering there is 5 perform instead of 5 tumble, which is the requirement in pnp. Additionally, the goal is to make every existing build still functional. Str, dex, melee, ranged, etc will all be viable options.

4 - The summons will not have a vfx when they are spawned in. Or if they do, it'll be a very minimal one. We're not going to have a big bright summon vfx and loud sound for something that's gonna happen potentially multiple times in a round.

5 - If anything simply can't be done smoothly and cleanly, then it won't be added and I'll come up with something else.

6 - As far as balancing goes, we are not nearly at that point yet so specific numbers and such are all more placeholders than anything else currently.

[Sandrow]

I like the concept of this new designment. From this preview, this class could show miracle fighting against low ac enemies. But comparative lower AB would cause troubles.

I suggest this generation of shadows is based on attack attempts rather than hits (with lowers chance). Or otherwise, provide an ability to help shadowdancers' initial hits. Drinking a potion of true strike can do, but it breaks stealth mode. I don't want to see my shadowdancer dancing with a dragon without one single shadow summoned for ten minutes.

And please let new summoned shadow replace preexist ones. It would be sad if a near dying shadow takes the only shadow slot when I could have summoned a new one.

One more thing. Epic Shadowlord's extra 5 hd on shadow is what made 17 shadowdancer a choice. Many old shadowdancer's ability including improved sneak attack is based on 5(base shadow hd) + 5 (Epic Shadowlord) + shadowdancer levels, divide by three. And 17 SD means 27/3 = 9. That's why many shadowdancer builds aims at 17.

And hey, don't forget poor shadow mage

[Ebonstar]

There would have to be something major to replace the permanent shadow and HiPS.

HiPS is already pushed back so its not dipable, and its more an escape or a true spy use than anything else with everyone trying to be spot bots and having amplify wands and truesight potions in a hat with the hanging straws.

Please do not tie in perform as SD has nothing to do with bards even with dancer in the name.

[Erebor]

I will try to tell more what i think , one by one

-No HiPS

(Please, don´t. Perhaps an 1 minute cooldown)

-No summon shadow as it exists currently (don't panic keep reading).

Ok

-No rogue synergy except lightly armored (and undecided on blinding speed synergy)

That´s bad

-Shadows will only copy appearance. They will no longer copy stats / equipment.

That´s ok


-Shadows will lose crippling strike but gain a small amount of bludgeoning/cold/negative damage (probably somewhere around 10-15 damage a hit).

That´s ok

One with Shadow: Unchanged

Could improves MS as well

Epic Shadowlord: Still makes shadow copy your appearance (but not stats/equipment). Increases summon chance on dance with shadows to 25%. Increases the shadow duration by 2 rounds. Increases the regen on shadow evade to 5 and gives 5% more concealment.

That´s nice

Passive Effects
-Sneak Attack gain at level 1 + every 3rd level thereafter (1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19)
-Shadow Displacement no longer requires line of sight.
-Shadowdancer and their shadow(s) gain passive darkvision at level 5. Gains passive ultravision at level 10. Gains passive see invis at level 15.

That´s nice

New Feats:

Like all of then, perhaps if all this news feats, Shadowdancer become more usefull and versatilly

Dance of Shadows:
Shadowdancer 1
Passive onhit (can be toggled on and off)
Weapons will gain black shadow vfx when toggled on.
Upon striking an enemy, the shadowdancer has a 20% chance to summon a shadow. The shadow will function the same as the old shadowdancer's shadow, including -guarding the shadowdancer, but it will only last for 5 rounds. The shadowdancer can have a maximum of 1 shadow per 5 shadowdancer levels.
For every active shadow, the shadowdancer will get 1 soft ab, 2 cold damage, and 2 negative damage.
Additionally, the shadowdancer's weapon will not be copied.

Darkness:
Shadowdancer 2
As spell.
3 minute cooldown, -1 minute per 5 shadowdancer levels

Shatter:
Shadowdancer 4
Standard action
AoE centered on summoned shadow(s)
3 minute cooldown
destroys all summoned shadow(s)
Deals 1 cold and 1 negative damage per destroyed shadow per character level (max 30/30 per shadow). Chance to blind equal to 10 + SD levels + Perform / 5 for 1 round.

Glooms Comfort:
Shadowdancer 5
passive
Shadow Evade now gives 3 regen.

Fleche:
Instant Action
Shadowdancer 15
3 Minute Cooldown
Ability to teleport to target for 3 rounds, after which you teleport back to initial location - during this you gain +2 ab, +2 cold damage, +2 negative damage. These stack with the bonuses from having active shadows.

Pirouette:
-Shadowdancer 7
-Range: Medium
-Teleports an active summoned shadow to target, which immediately will do a ww attack.

Penumbral Flamenco:
Instant Action
Shadowdancer 10
10 minute cooldown
Shadowdancer summons 1 shadow per 5 shadowdancer levels. These shadows will last for 5 rounds before vanishing. The shadowdancer gains greater sanctuary for 1 round.
Create Shadow Door:
Standard Action
Shadowdancer 18
10 minute cooldown
This will create a door to the shadowplane (or back to the material world) that will last for 1 minute before fading.
(I'm not sure how feasible this is gonna be since not all areas are 1:1. I'll probably just have it function similarly to potions of attunement if I can't get it to work well as designed.)

Greater pirouette:
Shadowdancer 12
-Pirouette will also cast darkness and evard's black tentacles on target. Duration 1 round.

Shadowdancer 14: Shadow Messenger (same as gsf illusion send image but sends a shadow)

Shadow Step:
Standard Action
Shadowdancer 17
10 minute cooldown
Casts darkness in the shadowdancer's location and the target location. After a short delay, the shadowdancer will teleport to the other darkness.
EDIT: Will need to figure out a way to prevent accessing illegal areas. If not possible then this will get yeeted.

Level TBD: Give them a summon shadow or two that last 24hr but have zero combat benefits. These shadows will not count for shadowdancer's other abilities. Purely just RP henchman for using -a on.

[God_In_Action]

I've thought about the core mechanic for summoning shadows for a bit longer. I think it would do well to add in multiple ways to trigger a shadow to be summoned.

If summoning a shadow only works on a hit in combat (melee only or not?) then I foresee that the quality of the class would vary too much according to how you build it, and what you fight.

With summoning tied to hits, then a SD will have to be built the right to succeed. Any build that wants to try something different, like a ranged character, or a two hander with fewer APR, or dip into a lower BAB class or dip into spell casting, will find its core mechanic significantly weakened.

It also means that certain classes might be a hard counter to SD in PvP. We know that 70AC is normal, and that means that a 3BAB class with up to about 50AB as standard (before all the whole run of wards and situational bonuses) is going to struggle to use its core mechanic. In a fight like that I foresee that the SD will get 1 shadow once ever few rounds but never really manage to get to their maximum.

Tl;Dr - proposal for shadow summoning forces certain class combinations out due to ineffectiveness.

Solution is to have multiple ways to summon a shadow, e.g. summon 1 shadow on casting a hostile spell, have it apply to ranged and melee, or even have it apply to any d20 attack roll over a certain number (regardless of hit), or have it give a %chance to summon a shadow for any missed attack against the SD. Have an ability that summons 1 shadow but only if there is no other shadow already summoned.

[Baron Saturday]

[snip]

And hey, don't forget poor shadow mage

Ooh, what if Shadow Mage touch attacks spawned shadows?

[Waldo52]

Please do not tie in perform as SD has nothing to do with bards even with dancer in the name.

I would like to +1 this.

The whole singing/dancing/performing character thing is a lot like sauerkraut. People generally find it utterly revolting or can't live without it. When I used to DM pen and paper games I didn't even allow bards. I understand that there's a strong song and dance tradition in D&D/Forgotten Realms that goes all the way to Tolkien and that the opinions of a vocal minority aren't going to do much to stop it. That said, I don't consider the perform skill to be such a vital cornerstone to the identity of this class.

I have nothing against perform being a class skill for the Shadowdancer or class abilities having dance related themes, but I don't like the direction we're going in with baking perform into the class' mechanics.

Would it be possible to use perform OR bluff instead of perform? Bluff is really flavorful because the shadowdancer is basically the ultimate deceiver.

I have one other unrelated concern.

The idea of a black VFX is really cool in general, but we now have a proliferation of VFX that basically telegraph class identity to other players. This is kind of cool for Paladins and Blackguards who represent the embodiments of good and evil but in general it's become quite annoying IMO. You see a dude with two red weapons and you know he's a ranger, etc. This is also becoming a problem when I try to form squads of goons. We may all agree to wear black and blue and wield ice VFX weapons, but there's always a couple guys who are locked into a certain other weapon color do to a prominent class ability. This may seem like an extremely niche concern, but I have a feeling other people have had the same problem.

[Mattamue]

Like the concept. Also like shadow mage synergy if possible. Some kind of shadow plane connection would be thematic. Like some more-powerful version of darkness that ultravision can't break. Would be thematic and allow some ability to be able hide without a corner & would still allow some counter-play from the target by moving out of the improved-darkness. At least more counter-play than hips which agreed needs to get dumpstered.

[Sandrow]

I suggest making the RP version summoned shadow as a special type of familiar. Because you can talk, command and even dominate it to do things as if it's yourself.
I don't sure what this familiar shadow should act, maybe the ability of a pixie or just copy your skill levels, with, of course, no damage.
Or just a normal familiar with ghostly VSF.

And here are some inspirations for shadow mage.
A formal caster level progress like pale master, 1/1
Touch attack to summon shadows is an awful idea because evocation school is shadowmages' weakness. A simple solve could be a higher chance to summon a shadow every time they cast a spell, which can be toggle on and off.
Familiar progression.

[Scylon]

Seems good to me.

One idea could be a epic level ability that shuffles the player with a random shadow. So they all make a puff and the player swaps places with one at random. If they all look like the player ( or the player looks like them) it could make for an interesting tactic

[Talgar]

not into these ideas at all, i'd rather you just buff the summon a bit and leave it alone

[garrbear758]

Considering the popularity of shadowdancer (2nd most played prestige class after weapon master) and the very mixed reception of these ideas, I'm going to leave shadowdancer as is.

With that said, I'll be working on two new classes that will incorporate many of these ideas.

[Subtext]

Seriously?

There were some insanely cool ideas and dropping that after a bit of critical feedback feels very...meh.

[garrbear758]

Seriously?

There were some insanely cool ideas and dropping that after a bit of critical feedback feels very...meh.

It wasn't a bit. It was a lot. And the ideas aren't getting dropped. They're going to be used in new classes instead of reworking something many people already like.

[Subtext]

I genuinely don't understand that approach.
I am not sure Shadowdancer is even all that liked aside from the edgy cool vibe and the potential to brainlessly grind PvE.
The gameplay is bland and outside of said PvE the class is entirely pointless.

Those I do play with that run SDs thought the ideas to be very interesting.

For what it's worth, I thought the rework ideas were very promising. I had some notes for feedback, I suppose it spares me the time to type it out now.