Thoughts on elves?

[Naghast]

I genuinely did not knew how to name the subject without making it seem like a meme so please forgive this. Anyway.

With all recent and not-so-recent changes, i genuinely can't shake off the feeling that elves have...
Quite a lot, compared to other races, in multiple regards?
Just, let me just go over things:

1: a settlement that's rather hard to get to, with only 2 ways to get in, one through a different settlement, and one through...
2: a race-locked (and maybe no longer alignment-locked) portal, which all combined, make it highly inconvenient to, you know, get in there when you may not be wanted. It's infinitely easier to get into Cordor (i can think of, like, three ways to get in off the top of my head, and that's not counting shadowplane), or frankly, any other settlement.

Now let's move to things that, i believe, make more difference.

They have a fairly decent racial weapon - it may not be the absolute best of the shelf, but it's still finessable, has multiple physical damage types (important when taking damage immunities into consideration), can still receive a permanent essence, and is overall, in my opinion, solid.

A really good medium armor - with solid bonuses to stealth to offset its armor check penalties, good damage immunities, bonus to a stat, and even special treatment of counting as light armor for several class features despite not being that. It's really, REALLY good, especially with how strong stealth is.

They get a really, really strong racial feat. Keen senses puts them, in my opinion, in an entirely different league compared to every other race in terms of being a spotter. And i know, someone'll probably just say "well, just turn on detect mode". the thing here is, detect mode only works well if you know they're planning on coming to you. A caster, an archer, they will definitely -NOT- want to be in melee. For those who don't know:
Normally, when you're moving without detect mode on, your total detection roll (1d20 + spot or listen) is cut by HALF. Including the 1d20.
That, combined with rather easily achievable conditional modifiers to detection DC, like, for example, the detector being in combat, can lead to someone with... 46 stealth (hide/ms) being able to consistently pass the stealth vs detection contest (both sides roll 1d20 if i remember correctly) against an entity with 100 detection.
You can probably tell that 46 stealth is much easier to achieve than 100 spot.
Continuing: Detect mode cuts your movement speed by half, and it turns off when you do anything other than, well, walk: if you try drinking a potion, casting a spell, attacking, using a scroll, etc. It'll break the detect mode. Meaning, it's rather hard to try to catch up to a stealther who's trying to keep distance from you.
Keen senses make you have detect mode up 24/7 with none of the drawbacks of it. You're constantly actively detecting, constantly adding your full spot bonus, and getting a full 1d20 to detect. You can run at full speed while doing that. This is a rather significant boon.

And yes, 10 levels of rogue also net you keen senses. But then, a combination of 10 rogue levels AND elf race nets you improved keen senses. Which provide +2 to listen and spot. Not a massive game changer, but it's always a bonus.

They also have an exclusive spellsword path, which- yeah it's quite underwhelming. But i feel like it's mostly because dex is just underwhelming, especially with recent power creep on STR builds (+4 tower shield and +4 fullplate).

And then there's arcane archer. It's really good, i admit. I love the way it's being taken. Especially since, up until now, the class was, quite frankly, bland and boring? It was always an incredibly, INCREDIBLY strong statboost towards a role that is very strong when used correctly, but it didn't have much else. Now it has a strong caster level synergy, a strong quiver level synergy with the same classes it has caster level synergy with, and its abilities were made a LOT more useful. They're as good as rooty tooty point and shooty, but now they can peek from a corner in stealth, launch a lvl 30 quiver -> seeker arrow to inflict 6 unavoidable attacks that can still crit, and jump back behind the corner as quickly as possible.

What are your thoughts?

[Amateur Hour]

On Point 1, it's exactly as easy to get into as Bendir. Bendir has one gate for entry (equivalent to the Guldorand entrance) and one internal portal open to only earthkin, and that's a hard lock to only earthkin. There is no way to trick the earthkin portals like there is with the mythal portal. It is objectively harder to get into the Gnome Grotto.

On Point Armor, keep in mind that anyone can wear the armor; it just requires an elven smith to make it (like the Dwarven Rune Wall requires a dwarven smith).

[AllPizzasArePersonal]

They have a fairly decent racial weapon - it may not be the absolute best of the shelf, but it's still finessable, has multiple physical damage types (important when taking damage immunities into consideration), can still receive a permanent essence, and is overall, in my opinion, solid.

It's a 19-20/x2 weapon. The +4 is nice...ish, but you still should prefer an 18-20/x2 weapon. There are plenty of other racial weapons that compete more strongly in their niche than the elf sword does in the 1 handed martial sword category - for example, the orcish two-handed sword.

A really good medium armor - with solid bonuses to stealth to offset its armor check penalties, good damage immunities, bonus to a stat, and even special treatment of counting as light armor for several class features despite not being that. It's really, REALLY good, especially with how strong stealth is.

It's okay, but it's also not racially locked.

They get a really, really strong racial feat.

Yeah it's a really strong feat for spotters.

They also have an exclusive spellsword path, which- yeah it's quite underwhelming.

So exclusive access to a sub-optimal spellsword path. They're not the only race that enjoys a racially locked class.

What are your thoughts?

Elves also have a con malus on almost all of their racial selections, which is pretty massive. If you want to play a bladesinger or an AA, yeah, you roll an elf because you don't have any other option. But you're not going to roll an elf to get access to forging elven chainmail or to use an elfblade when there are usually just better options available to you, to say nothing of the stat penalty you're paying over the con malus.

Most of the things elves get are RP flavor, not mechanical power. Whether that's too much or not is sort of a different discussion from the one you're proposing here.

[-XXX-]

While I don't feel strongly about this, it would appear that many PvP focused players are choosing elves and I doubt they do it only because of the RP flavor.

I wouldn't call 30hp massive - it's certainly a bargain for keen senses and can be even remedied with feats depending on the character build.

[Amateur Hour]

While I don't feel strongly about this, it would appear that many PvP focused players are choosing elves and I doubt they do it only because of the RP flavor.

As a confirmed elf addict (though not a PvPer), this is far less about mechanical advantage or RP flavor but community. Where you have a solid group of people who are playing PvP-successful characters for a long time, they develop inertia, and everyone knows there's inertia, so if you want to get in with a PvP-winning group, that's where you go.

[MissEvelyn]

It's accurate with the lore that Elves have vast ancient secrets (such as Mythallars, Tel'kiiras, and so on) that humans have long since lost in the falls of great empires like Netheril, Illefarn, etc., so I am actually happy to see that Arelith stays consistent with the setting.

[Ork]

Myon is a major instigator of server-wide conflict, and that's a good thing & true to lore. It wasn't always so, but now that it is we see a lot of this anti-myon sentiment floating around. You'll be sad when they're gone.

[Morgy]

Keen Senses is a feat that gives me envy on all my PCs! It's very handy, but you can also just put your detect on F2 (to use as your walk function). Yes, this doesn't work very well in fast-paced fighting, but then someone stealthing isn't moving that fast either!

As for server-wide conflict? There's plenty of it from all places, that can be very enjoyable or seemingly quite one-sided. It's important to not confuse the two.

[TurningLeaf]

Keen Senses is also excellent with Search. Dwarves get a racial class as well.

For PvP I've always been most afraid of small size casters actually.

[Royal Blood]

Elf sub-races offer a lot of options for a variety of angles of game play. I like that those sub races usually fit with a class that mirrors that subraces likely preference. Sun elves getting Int or Wood elves getting strength. Culturally they've got different like traditions so that class bonuses mirror that.

[Watchful Glare]

I dislike places that are air-tight in their security. Specially when they're faction bases. They are simply objectively better.

As for Myon, I don't like that you have to go through another settlement to get to it. Or do a FOIG dance to get through the elf only portal.

In the case of Myon is the only settlement where you really can't go into it. In Cordor you could have a fight in the farms. In the outskirts. in Bendir you could have fights in the forests, outside of their gates. In Andunor you can fight in the Deep Gate. In the Wheels. In the Districts. In Guldorand you can fight in the hills, just outside the gates, even in Soulhaven if it happens to be.

All these places while avoiding the 'hubs' where most people gather to RP. Keeping it low key, if you have to.

I won't even get into Sencliff, those can get it anywhere. It's a long list.

In the case of Myon you have to go through Guldorand, in which case you're fighting within Guldorand if something hostile happens. You can't go through without raiding Guldorand, or acknowledging the presence of their guards and if you don't then you're giving way for anyone to give you a slap in the wrist (or more than that) and tell you you're disrespecting the setting. They're safe that way and I can see it being a frustrating experience for anyone that opposes them. There are no Myon outskirts. No Myon side streets. That's called deep Guldorand at that point.

[Kalopsia]

Regarding Keen Senses, something worth noting is that you don't actually have to enable Detect Mode to gain the benefits:

A creature that is standing still gains the benefits of detect mode, even if not actually in that mode.

In short: if you're worried about corner-sneaking, stand still for 1 second and you've already rolled 5 times at your full detect skills.

[Power Word, Haste]

In the case of Myon is the only settlement where you really can't go into it. In Cordor you could have a fight in the farms. In the outskirts. in Bendir you could have fights in the forests, outside of their gates. In Andunor you can fight in the Deep Gate. In the Wheels. In the Districts. In Guldorand you can fight in the hills, just outside the gates, even in Soulhaven if it happens to be.

All these places while avoiding the 'hubs' where most people gather to RP. Keeping it low key, if you have to.

In the case of Myon you have to go through Guldorand, in which case you're fighting within Guldorand if something hostile happens. You can't go through without raiding Guldorand, or acknowledging the presence of their guards and if you don't then you're giving way for anyone to give you a slap in the wrist (or more than that) and tell you you're disrespecting the setting. They're safe that way and I can see it being a frustrating experience for anyone that opposes them. There are no Myon outskirts. No Myon side streets. That's called deep Guldorand at that point.

On this topic of “areas that are adjacent to settlement zones for would-be attackers to get a fight”, the Arelith Forest is a large span of wilderness zones that is one transition from the Myon loitering area and is frequently raided for PvP due to the fact that it’s just a bunch of woods with no NPCs in most zones but is frequently traversed by elves.

[Hazard]

I like how elves and Myon are atm and the place they're in, even if some of my characaters do not. They get things elves should get, the new Myon isn't really that secure at all (foig) compared to the old Myon, and they're acting politically how elves would act, creating a lot of tension with races that "just don't get them".

There might be some individuals from Myon who do evil things or just make mistakes and accidentally do the wrong thing, but I don't think this has anything to do with what elves do and don't get. It's just a very active faction atm, because it has a lot of active and inclusive people heading it. I've never had a character (even under new account names) that hasn't been given a chance to befriend Myon, so long as they can get along with elves and their way of things, which feels true to lore. They're meant to be a bit alien and different to shorter lived races, that can't commune like they can, reverie, or live as long, etc.

If any settlement on the server did have the beefiest defense, it would make sense for it to be the single elven city. Elves tend to do things that way at the expense of being cut off and misunderstood from the rest of their neighbours, which is pretty much what we have going on imo. They're a race in decline. Their empires have crumbled and their race only shrinks in population over time. They've watched the world change from being entirely theirs, to being completely dominated by humans. The few strongholds of 'elf only' places would be very isolationist and defendable, even more so than a dwarven mountain because even dwarves have a love of trade and commerce that opens them up, where elves could resist.

The things only elves can make are accurate to lore, and you can still use them. You just need an elf to make them, which makes for cool emergant gameplay where you need to somehow source these rare elven objects.

Keen senses IS very strong, but again .. Do we want our elves to just be little humans with pointy ears? I certainly don't. I like that when my stealth characters see an elf they think "Oh, crap!" .. That's cool! It makes them feel elfy.

Also, there's nothing stopping anyone from just playing an evil elf, making getting your hands on elven items even easier.

[Watchful Glare]

In the case of Myon is the only settlement where you really can't go into it. In Cordor you could have a fight in the farms. In the outskirts. in Bendir you could have fights in the forests, outside of their gates. In Andunor you can fight in the Deep Gate. In the Wheels. In the Districts. In Guldorand you can fight in the hills, just outside the gates, even in Soulhaven if it happens to be.

All these places while avoiding the 'hubs' where most people gather to RP. Keeping it low key, if you have to.

In the case of Myon you have to go through Guldorand, in which case you're fighting within Guldorand if something hostile happens. You can't go through without raiding Guldorand, or acknowledging the presence of their guards and if you don't then you're giving way for anyone to give you a slap in the wrist (or more than that) and tell you you're disrespecting the setting. They're safe that way and I can see it being a frustrating experience for anyone that opposes them. There are no Myon outskirts. No Myon side streets. That's called deep Guldorand at that point.

On this topic of “areas that are adjacent to settlement zones for would-be attackers to get a fight”, the Arelith Forest is a large span of wilderness zones that is one transition from the Myon loitering area and is frequently raided for PvP due to the fact that it’s just a bunch of woods with no NPCs in most zones but is frequently traversed by elves.

The only issue with this is that Arelith Forest is a transition area very close to Bendir too and it's frequently traversed by everyone (particularly by people going about completion of their writs), not just Myon denizens. It's about as accurate as a shotgun is. There are no outskirts to Myon.

Since this is also a hotly debated topic I'm going to get my word out and say that I do like Myon being conflictive. Without conflict things would grow stale and there would be no need for diplomacy, and no room for hostility. If everything were to become homogenous it would be boring. Just as it happens with group-settlement alliances that last for years, rather than months. I'd like to see more conflict between settlements, myself, but I'll take what I can get.

Disclaimer: Conflict as something that is fun for all involved. Don't take it to the extreme and assume I am advocating for the scrygankinator 2000 to be put in a 48hs rotator use and vanish everyone that wanders two steps away from their hub to the shadow realm. Fights every once in a while are fun. You want elves to feel like elves. You want the underdark and the drow to feel like an evil threat that is fun to hate and rally against. That respawn button is going to be hit 99.9% of the times. Make it count.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Elves are definitely up there with the most powerful mechanical races. Of what I consider the "big four" (humans/drow/elves/half orcs) the sub races give them the most flexibility for reasons laid out already, so that probably makes them as popular as humans. For pure power purposes though, I would actually have drow and half orcs above them. Humans I think are the same level, since while you lose that extra dex/int/strength for your max power you do get an extra feat and 33 more skill points, which does tie into power. There are probably some meme builds too that can come out of the better perk races that could be considered really good too, but because of the lack of flexibility I put even the best of them beneath the big four.

What does that mean? Well, nothing. Something has to be the best. And while I wish the perk races were up there, I get why it isn't.

The one thing that confuses me is the whole "myon is the most secure place on the server bit". What would you do if you could get in there anyways? If anything, I think myons isolation is a hinderance to playing the race, not a boon. While it hasn't always been pretty, guldorand in theory is the best thing that happened to elves. Brogendenstein suffers the same fate as the old myon does, and every time i come up with an idea for a dwarf I change my mind because I don't want to be standing about alone waiting for dwarves to show up...or yelling at people for running through. Cue the scottish accent. But yeah, myon proper is literally always empty now that guld is the place.

[Paint]

My thoughts on elves is that they are ok.

I don't think they necessarily get as much special love and attention as some people think; Earthkin get the EKD class, and while it's lacking right now, it wasn't always that way, and it still has some pretty strong and solid build potential. Kobolds get RDD w/o burning a gift, etc etc. The racial armor is usable by everyone, so I don't really consider that an elf-exclusive thing. It just means you have to RP with an elf to get a set. Or buy it. One of the two.

Keen Senses is also pretty great, but it's relevancy mostly shines on builds that build around high spot and listen. Or search. I guess. And then it becomes a question of how do you achieve your goal? Some races are obviously better picks than others for x or y. For example, half-orcs tend to be great for dual-wielding builds that don't include ranger -- and ranger, because of their racial weapons -- because they get ambidexterity for free, so they don't need to take the stat tax.

And humans well, uh. They get a free feat at first and extra skillpoints, so. You know.

Also Myon's not that difficult to get into. If your character can't find a way in, the most they'll have to do is ask a few people and the terrible secret of getting into Myon will be revealed to them quickly and often carelessly. Or they could go in the much less secret way, I guess.

I think it's clear by the design of Arelith that some races are meant to shine at certain things, and I don't think that's a bad thing. It creates texture, adds incentive to play something out of your comfort zone, and encourages clever building.

As for Myon and conflict, I can say that the only times I've been dissatisfied with Myon making conflict is when there's no follow-through, and this can be for a variety of factors. We need more conflict on the server and more tension between settlements, imo. Shake things up a bit.

[Good Character]

Beyond Keen Senses, which I frankly found obnoxiously annoying before they added in -alwayswalk, elves (aside from drow) aren't too overbearing in their mechanical upside.

As far as how they are being played in-game, it's incredibly refreshing to see Myon being mentioned. It's always nice to see a historically strong race being represented in such a way. Myon has such a reputation that even those of the Underdark have gotten to avoiding them entirely or (poorly) using them as some sort of limit test.

[ReverentBlade]

I don't think its a coincidence that PvP-happy archer elf is a meme.

[Naghast]

Regarding Keen Senses, something worth noting is that you don't actually have to enable Detect Mode to gain the benefits:

A creature that is standing still gains the benefits of detect mode, even if not actually in that mode.

In short: if you're worried about corner-sneaking, stand still for 1 second and you've already rolled 5 times at your full detect skills.

The same page also shows that the rolls are made once every 6 seconds, and at the end claims that rolls are made and saved, and checks are made more often than rolls using these saved values, to take situarional modifiers into account.

Does it restore the 50% penalty to the roll, before the reroll is made?

[Ork]

Threads like these deserve to be locked. We've already got pot-shots veiled as euphemisms from 4 of the posts here in this thread. I don't think it's your fault OP. Some people can't help themselves.

[Zavandar]

why would elves stay in myon when they can live rent free in everyone's heads

[Naghast]

...Yea, you're right, Ork.

[MRFTW]

Keen Senses really needs to be more widespread. Adding it to rogue and vigilante was a great move in the right direction.

[perseid]

My thoughts on elves is that they are ok.

Keen Senses is also pretty great, but it's relevancy mostly shines on builds that build around high spot and listen. Or search. I guess. And then it becomes a question of how do you achieve your goal? Some races are obviously better picks than others for x or y. For example, half-orcs tend to be great for dual-wielding builds that don't include ranger -- and ranger, because of their racial weapons -- because they get ambidexterity for free, so they don't need to take the stat tax.
And humans well, uh. They get a free feat at first and extra skillpoints, so. You know.

I don't think I can agree with this position that it shines on builds that build around it. I think, especially considering the sheer utility of corner sneaking, that Keen Senses is easily the best racial ability. You get a 1d20 on the detection roll to help overcome the sneak and there's a million sources of Listen/Spot. Not everyone might be able to beat a hide/ms 127 character but most builds can at least consider bending a little to be able to detect someone in the 70-80s sometimes and most could probably even contemplate the 90s if they have room for 33 investment in a detection skill.