Suggestion Discussion: Disable Artefacts

[rat0a]

Who say I'm doing it? I'm not

I'm just saying that to get something nice you have to go there a lot because most of the times you will get "JUNK"

Not hard feelings grip all good! I'm exaggerating a bit, like I always do, but people read fast here and like to jump on you right away Which is funny to be honest

[Scurvy Cur]

There are a few changes to the system that I've thought would be good for a long time:

Instead of letting artifacts spawn once per reset, put each of the chests on a timer, of between 18 and 36 hours, with the actual time selected at random from something in that range every time an artifact chest is looted. This will make it pretty much impractical to do what many of the worst artifact farmers are doing, and parking a character outside an artifact dungeon and waiting for a reset. This is by far the biggest gripe I've got with the artifact system on the whole: it's not accessible to anyone that does not do this, and as the servers seem to frequently get reset at specific times by specific DMs, time zone access starts to matter a great deal.

Cause artifacts, like all other forms of non-gold loot, to break when a chest is bashed. Currently, they survive an "open by bash" approach, which has enabled a number of people to chain farm artifacts past epic bosses by running past, using a gonne on the chest, grabbing the drop, and leaving the dungeon.

Nerf selected bonuses. Most artifact bonuses aren't terrible. Skill, attribute, and enhancement bonuses of +4 aren't a big deal, for the most part. This is not the case for saving throw bonuses. Prior to artifacts existing, high saving throws were something that one had to consciously build for by setting aside feats to shore up weak saves. Currently, however, it's not uncommon to see characters with +8 or more to all saving throws from having a couple artifacts on hand. I would suggest capping saving throws to +1 universal saves as a minor property and +2 universal saves as a major property, and individual saving throws to +2/+3. Make this retroactive too. Saving throw creep is a significant problem to inter-class balance, and widespread access to super high saving throws with no investment is a bad thing. This is similar to the need, back in 2006, to remove +5 skill bonuses from the enchanting basins, which was allowing people to rack up stupidly high discipline scores without even investing a single skill point in it.

This may be hard, but: Randomize the location each artifact chest can spawn in. Pick from 3-5 locations that each can be found, and every time they respawn, select at random.

Tone up the difficulty in some of the dungeons that drop artifacts. I know of at least one dungeon that's been unchanged since 2006, and was relatively cakewalkish for a level 20 character to solo even then. Since that time, characters have gotten even more powerful on average. There's an artifact chest in this dungeon, though, and I suspect it is one of the ones that is frequently farmed out withing 10-20 minutes of a reset.

Concurrent with these tweaks:

Boost enchantment. Add, in fairly stable locations, some form of epic enchantment catalyst that, when used by an epic enchanter, allows a relatively high-probability chance to add a property that exists outside the normal basin matrix. On use, the catalyst is consumed, regardless of success or failure.

Boost crafting. Add either high-DC items for every major craft, or make crafters responsible for producing the enchantment catalysts. As with when the current masterly damask weapons went into the matrix, reset everyone's crafting points, to allow players to adjust for the sudden potential for using a full 50+ points in a given craft.

[Cortex]

Who say I'm doing it? I'm not

I'm just saying that to get something nice you have to go there a lot because most of the times you will get "JUNK"

Not hard feelings grip all good! I'm exaggerating a bit, like I always do, but people read fast here and like to jump on you right away Which is funny to be honest

Others did and still do.

[rat0a]

Who say I'm doing it? I'm not

I'm just saying that to get something nice you have to go there a lot because most of the times you will get "JUNK"

Not hard feelings grip all good! I'm exaggerating a bit, like I always do, but people read fast here and like to jump on you right away Which is funny to be honest

Others did and still do.

Agreed

[JediMindTrix]

- Are you implying you need to take "breaks" from roleplay?

Absolutely. Intense roleplay at least.

[CragOrion]

A few quick ideas:

Add negative traits to the pool of random stats. This increases unpredictability on what you might find, and opens up the idea of 'cursed' items. This can be elaborated upon by allowing enchanters the ability to remove these negative traits.

Allow enchanters the ability to re-roll the traits of an artifact, provided they have the necessary resources.

This is golden.

[Durvayas]

I like this suggestion, because it'll add RP and further relevance to enchanters, but I also like the rest of Irongron's suggestions.

[Dinosaur Space Program]

Enchanters removing stuff from artefacts has already been shot down in the suggestion box at least once. I am not saying that to discourage the brainstorming here, but it has been suggested.

My issue with artefacts are the artefact farmers. You know the ones. The ones that exploit boss spawns, run dungeons silently to the end to gonne open the chest, maybe get their friend who happens to be a DM to reset the server at odd hours so they can buzz over there first to snag them... etc.

There is definitely an use and abuse mentality to the current system. I like most of Scurvy's suggestions myself, which admittedly link up with Irongron's for the most part. I also very much agree with universal saves on artefacts being reduced down to 1-2.

I disagree on One thing however that this thread has brought up. How enchanters are rare and not worthwhile anymore.

I play an enchanter. I have never seen this problem. I don't think it actually needs to be buffed more and if it is, it should be done with careful consideration. Update the crafting matrix before you start giving enchanters more options to work with.

[Seekeepeek]

I played an enchanter too, and i don't really think buffing up enchanting and crafting is the solution to fix something that's broken. from personal experience i was about to quit my enchanter, when the enchantment got improved to allow 5% items rather then 1% items. why? i spend buckets of gold and xp on the gear i currently had, and suddenly people go "pffftt" - what's that junk. I think you should rather try to find suggestions that will enchant the roleplay on the server.

I really hope the artifacts at reset issue get fixed. I remember when it was just added my Gnoll had PvP with Reo cause she came from behind to collect the artifact, i got my butt kicked. hehe.

[DestroyerOTN]

I would come to disagree with a few of the points which have been made.

Artifacts aren't an imbalance. They're a much-needed balance the server has been years without, and suddenly sees as an issue when they have it.

I'll remind you: There was a time before the server-split where items were a -lot- more powerful at large; and indeed, while some of those resistances have gone away, items like +4 Cloaks of Protection and +4 Amulets of Natural Armor still occasionally turn up; particularly within certain semi-secret meeting halls.

The problem with artifacts is that they impose an artificially 'mixed' magic cap on the server. While those that sit about and don't rush Abazuur still have wimpy +3 armoring (what plebs), the ones which get their arses up and run the RDI-Giant-Aurilite-Abyss circle each reset will -probably- end up with Weaponmasters with saves in the 30s, 58 AC, AB in the 50s, and damage of over 250 a crit. (Actual character currently, which has 32 SR atop that.)

I've said it before.

I've said it in other threads.

I'll say it again:

The overall options for crafting on the server are equivalent in value to being a pale master that's not a melee build from a mechanical standpoint: There are better options elsewhere. Said better items are within the hands of the enchanter, whom now summarily -also- has competition.

They can beat that competition without too much change to the current system, though. In fact, a fighter who could deign to wear two stat four skill gear, or perhaps a proper suit of CON/STR/WIS/DISC/SPELLCRAFT battle cleric gear? That would -almost- encourage me to argue for no buffs to the current capacity of our server enchanting.

-but you can't do that

-and you won't be able to find an enchanter that's willing to after an entire day's worth of +2 stat +2 skill items that they do so -OFTEN- they can't even throw a name on.


But let me skip to the point; three points, even:

>Gear, of any kind, of any persuasion, will never be special outside of -actual player made lore value-. An amulet worn by Ayin Mesmer will fetch more of that lore charm than artifacts. Solution:Get over it. Alternatively, one can throw in the mystique themselves. Pick, don't enforce!
>Craftable gear is entirely and utterly a waste of anyone's time outside of approximately 14 different (not counting different armor/weapon types) items. The matrix is not simply advisable to improve, it requires improvement. Whoever thinks a +5 Animal Empathy cloak is worth anything knows as much as Jon Snow.
>Enchantment needs a slight revamp. Either increase the strength of the options or scale the odds. Stuff that's currently a 38% chance is common enough that it should be nothing shy of a 60%. Godsaves need to exist. The entire boon of being an enchanter is in this gear being made. Make it a more -staggering- percentage. Those that think otherwise may see above on the first bulleted point.
>Personally, I'd argue that more options for the kind of gear that you get in such artifact encounters (albeit, more diluted, and with no chance of stacking) should exist anyway. Add those somewhere?
>Go ahead and improve some of those materials that we're also supposed to think are wonder metals and the like. Mithril means nothing to anyone.
>Can we decide, in spite of this, that saves were a bad idea? +1 was a pain for some casters. To dispose of imbalance problems, one could literally axe -only those- from the Artifact system and have no problems. Melee would be playable, but DC casting would as well.

[Kuma]

- Make Artifacts less frequent, so that people don't rush the relevant areas post reset.

This is already not a problem. Sending you a PM.

[rat0a]

I really hope the artifacts at reset issue get fixed. I remember when it was just added my Gnoll had PvP with Reo cause she came from behind to collect the artifact, i got my butt kicked. hehe.

I remember that day, I was there as well with Kira

You have a companion that ran away and leave you lol

[grip]

The problem with artifacts is that they impose an artificially 'mixed' magic cap on the server.

This 100%

Weaponmasters with saves in the 30s, 58 AC, AB in the 50s, and damage of over 250 a crit. (Actual character currently, which has 32 SR atop that.)

I am all for monster builds, all for them. All for monster good guy builds, monster bad guy builds, monster luke warm builds. But, monster builds that also have insane gear 95% of the server will never have access to? Not cool, in my humble opinion.

My biggest questions are:
-Do artifacts promote, obstruct, or have no effect on rp?
-Are these just cases of: report cheeseballers and forget it.
-Are the DEVs okay with such powerful items (When combined) that, potentially, obliterate any sense of balance as we know it?
-Why are they spelled Artefacts and not Artifacts? (Not important at all, I just don't know.)

And lastly, what about limiting people to being able to wear/carry a specific number of artifacts? Is it possible? Is it reasonable?

[Lorkas]

I feel suspicious of those quoted stats.

[JediMindTrix]

Screenshot or it's not real.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

artefact = British
artifact = American

from the Latin "arte" and "facta" meaning "with skill" and "having been made" generally

[Cortex]

What stats are you refering to, Lorkas/Jedi?

[Scurvy Cur]

I am all for monster builds, all for them. All for monster good guy builds, monster bad guy builds, monster luke warm builds. But, monster builds that also have insane gear 95% of the server will never have access to? Not cool, in my humble opinion.

Essentially this. I don't even mind exceptionally good random looted gear: it's a good thing to have in a D&D setting, and is an exciting reason to go on an epic adventure. What I do mind is a system that, currently, is so predictable in spawning them that it does an excellent job of concentrating all of these items in the hands of the people who drop everything right after a reset and go farm them out, usually by running through a dungeon with no RP, and if needed, killing anyone that was in the dungeon when the reset hit. This is, imo, not the right sort of behavior that the system should be rewarding.

Randomization of spawn times and locations would help with this.

-Do artifacts promote, obstruct, or have no effect on rp?

I think they can promote in the right circumstances. Unfortunately, I do not think we have these circumstances currently, because the means of obtaining artifacts heavily reward those people who will abruptly cut off RP after a reset, climb on skype with their friends, and sprint to as many chests as they can reach. So currently, I would say they obstruct because they reward, and thus encourage behavior that is driven by OOC knowledge, OOC coordination, and a blatant disregard for the continuity of RP. As a general rule, if you reward this behavior with chances at best-in-game gear, you are going to get more of it. And that's not something I think we should do.

-Are these just cases of: report cheeseballers and forget it.

I think the worst cases have been getting reported for ages, but it doesn't seem to have significantly altered the behavior, attitude, or approach to the system.

-Are the DEVs okay with such powerful items (When combined) that, potentially, obliterate any sense of balance as we know it?

I would hope not. And this is why I am a strong proponent of capping out the most egregious properties that, when stacked on several artifacts at once, can do stupid things to how the server in general is balanced. Bonus by bonus, my thoughts are:

+4 Enhancements on armor and weapons are probably fine. They're nothing in excess of what a fighter or cleric can manage on armor or weapons.

+4 Deflection is in the same boat as armor and weapons.

+4 Natural AC amulet is, again, not in excess of something you can get with a barkskin wand. Generally fine.

+4 dodge AC bonus should be stricken from the loot matrix, or capped at +2. +4 dodge AC represents a truly massive bonus to AC for all classes, without a reciprocal option for increasing AB across the board. +2 would be a more suitable cap, as it represents 1 point more than can be achieved in the basins. Since dodge AC stacks with itself across all sources, this AC will always represent a flat improvement, rather than another source of the +4 bonus.

+4 skill bonuses are generally not awful, but this is more because there are so many skills that it's not likely you're going to get the skill you want across several items and get other useful properties on them as well.

Elemental damage resistances aren't too bad, because they don't stack with one another, so these will never push someone into absurd territory by stacking.

+4 Universal saves is the biggest problem child IMO. Like the dodge AC bonus, multiple instances stack. Also like the dodge AC bonus, this one is four times larger than the bonus you can get out of the basin. Unlike the dodge AC bonus, you can get this on multiple item slots, leading to some stupid levels of save stacking.

+4 Attribute bonus would almost be a problem bonus, except that most characters are already getting +12 to their primary stat and +10-12 to a secondary stat, so this one isn't as huge a problem, despite being four times as large as basin bonuses, and twice as large as anything craftable.

-Why are they spelled Artefacts and not Artifacts? (Not important at all, I just don't know.)

I wish I knew. And sincerely wish they were spelled properly too.

[Cortex]

Add more complications to get to an artifact, like randomized puzzles, labirynths(why don't we have one yet????), instead of a chest a rare boss encounter holds it(or containers items with random events(Adventurer unlocks chest, frees big bad demon previously locked away inside, or upon opening they open a gate to another place which sucks them in).

[Durvayas]

Sadly Labyrinths are only a difficulty the first time you enter them. After that you already know the way. Now... if there were some way to randomize it like the abyss... And add super beefed up minotaur...

[JediMindTrix]

A note on Dodge bonuses; they disappear when flat-flooted, and there's a lot of ways to be caught flat flooted.

[DrVindaloo]

A note on Dodge bonuses; they disappear when flat-flooted, and there's a lot of ways to be caught flat flooted.

Unless they're rogues. Like half of the fighting types will be at level 30.

[JediMindTrix]

Uncanny Dodge does not restore the Dodge modifier; if there's a feat I'm unaware of that will for High level rogues, I'm of the opinion they've earned it for investing so much into the class.

[Scurvy Cur]

There isn't. If you're flat footed, you lose all the dodge AC you've got. All Uncanny Dodge does is let you keep your dex modifier AC.

That said, there's only 1-2 failsafe ways to be assured of catching an opponent flat footed, and both of them can be alleviated with a spell or scroll; I'm relatively sure both these ways are completely unintended, but are also so deep in the engine architecture that the only way to fix them is to sacrifice the Bioware dev team responsible for writing them in the first place.

The rest can be protected against some other fashion.

[Lorkas]

What stats are you refering to, Lorkas/Jedi?

Weaponmasters with saves in the 30s, 58 AC, AB in the 50s, and damage of over 250 a crit. (Actual character currently, which has 32 SR atop that.)

250 damage crit - doable with 4x crits if you can do a 62.5 noncrit, but that probably can't be done without 2 handed weapons (not counting damage sources not multiplied on a crit, and not counting smite)

58 AC - definitely doable with a tower shield and IE, but probably not while also being able to crit 250

50s AB - sure, but not in IE mode so that you maintain 58 AC

Buffed by allies it's more feasible, but I'm still suspicious that this exists without some special conditions like being a dragon.