WOF is too accessible

[Hazard]

The sequencer is the exact opposite of tedious. Summon + one sequencer click and go. That’s not tedious. Having to cast 15 spells on a summon was tedious.

If you’re talking about making one, that is very simple too (or pat the 3-5k in a shop)

The tedious part isn't the sequencer item itself, they're pretty cool on their own. It's the fact that now you're forced to do those things instead of (the much less tedious act) just, not, because your character already knows those spells and should be able to cast them, themself.

[AstralUniverse]

The sequencer is the exact opposite of tedious. Summon + one sequencer click and go. That’s not tedious. Having to cast 15 spells on a summon was tedious.

If you’re talking about making one, that is very simple too (or pat the 3-5k in a shop)

The tedious part isn't the sequencer item itself, they're pretty cool on their own. It's the fact that now you're forced to do those things instead of (the much less tedious act) just, not, because your character already knows those spells and should be able to cast them, themself.

Say we allow casting on summons again, and we nerf summons accordingly - how much do we nerf? what class do we use as a pillar of reference? it just brings us back to the large disparity in summons power between classes we had previously and the whole sequencer thing accomplishes nothing, then we're back to square one - that is that dungeons are impossible to balance and that antfrogs roflstomp everyone in pvp. How do we accomplish what you want so much while also avoiding backtracking a year of progress in at least some aspects of the paradigm?

[Anomandaris]

The sequencer is the exact opposite of tedious. Summon + one sequencer click and go. That’s not tedious. Having to cast 15 spells on a summon was tedious.

If you’re talking about making one, that is very simple too (or pat the 3-5k in a shop)

The tedious part isn't the sequencer item itself, they're pretty cool on their own. It's the fact that now you're forced to do those things instead of (the much less tedious act) just, not, because your character already knows those spells and should be able to cast them, themself.

Say we allow casting on summons again, and we nerf summons accordingly - how much do we nerf? what class do we use as a pillar of reference? it just brings us back to the large disparity in summons power between classes we had previously and the whole sequencer thing accomplishes nothing, then we're back to square one - that is that dungeons are impossible to balance and that antfrogs roflstomp everyone in pvp. How do we accomplish what you want so much while also avoiding backtracking a year of progress in at least some aspects of the paradigm?

Out of curiosity would you say to a 100% reversion of changes to sequencer and summon buffs, basically a reversion, but make it so spell resistance cannot be cast on summons?

It seems to me the issue is not the power of a given summon as much as the inability to have counter play against a strong summon due to 42 Spell Resist. Or am I missing something here?

This is why “problem solution fit validation” is critical in development. There may be a real problem but the solution isn’t always valid or optimal…

[Hazard]

The sequencer is the exact opposite of tedious. Summon + one sequencer click and go. That’s not tedious. Having to cast 15 spells on a summon was tedious.

If you’re talking about making one, that is very simple too (or pat the 3-5k in a shop)

The tedious part isn't the sequencer item itself, they're pretty cool on their own. It's the fact that now you're forced to do those things instead of (the much less tedious act) just, not, because your character already knows those spells and should be able to cast them, themself.

Say we allow casting on summons again, and we nerf summons accordingly - how much do we nerf? what class do we use as a pillar of reference? it just brings us back to the large disparity in summons power between classes we had previously and the whole sequencer thing accomplishes nothing, then we're back to square one - that is that dungeons are impossible to balance and that antfrogs roflstomp everyone in pvp. How do we accomplish what you want so much while also avoiding backtracking a year of progress in at least some aspects of the paradigm?

We're already at square one. The disparity between summoning classes is worse now than it was before, not better. What was accomplished other than spells not functioning properly, and summons no longer being PvP viable? What you call 'progress' I call 'mistakes', and what you call backtracking I would call 'fixing'.

The update brought two things, and we can't keep arguing as if it didn't.
Two things.

1. Sequencers.
2. Disabled casters from using their own spells on their summons.

1 is Yay. Now everyone has access to the important spells, at least somewhat. Clerics STILL fall behind in a sequencer world because they can't mass zoo/mass haste (sacrificing an entire domain to pick one that doesn't even fit your character to get access to 1 zoo spell/AoV is not the same. AoV requiring not only to sacrifice a domain but also THREE feats. Ew.), but they can at least individually haste the summons. Y'know what, that's fine. That's the spell they have, that's what they can (could) do.

2 is Oops. Nm. You can't use your own spells. Instead of the sequencers bridging the gap, they made it larger and created new gaps. Now everyone can only cast what the sequencers allow, except for mass zoo and mass haste. You can still throw those on there.
Did you want to do some sneaky RP and try to invisibly bring a zombie through the city- NO. You're not allowed to use your invisibility spell. Did someone go into stealth and you want to use true sight on your summ- No. Do they keep dismissing your summons and you want to give them (1 round of) protectio- No. You can only buff through sequencers.

What was accomplished? Summons were too strong in PvE, well they're stronger now (even without sequencers). Summons were imbalanced in PvP, well they're even more imbalanced now. Not being viable at all, is more imbalanced than 1 kind of summon being too strong.

And all it took to get nowhere was a complete overhaul of how spells work on summons, and making casters feel like idiots who don't know how to cast their own spells, unless it comes out of a crafted/bought tube. Mmm. Dungeons & Dragons class fantasy at its finest.

Could have just brought the AB of planar conduit down to match EMD, and capped/limited the most problematic spell (Spell Resistance) instead of overhauling (and breaking) spellcasting to a point where casters can't even cast their own spells.

[Morgy]

What if summons had a numbers of rounds immune to WoF/Banish dependent on relevant spell foci? 2 rounds per foci tier, perhaps.

Edit: Sometimes summons are useless for the first round, so perhaps a better idea is: 2 rounds base + 1 round per foci.

This would give some benefit to being a summoner build, but also only give limited protection. This also would mean summons would be better brought in as late as possible, rather than all sequenced up and ready for a big fight in advance.

[AstralUniverse]

@Hazard you havent attempted to answer any of my questions. How much do we nerf and what antfrog summoner we use as a pillar of reference (or what warlock build, whatever). You already begin your post with a refusal to accept the reality. We are not in square one at all, for better or worse. I've described what I referred to as square one and we're really not there. Summons do not stomp in pvp anymore* . That's a fact I think we all agree on so that's far from square one. Also how can you say that the disparity between different summoners is higher than before when they all get exactly the same buffs and stats now. The only difference is that some classes need to read mass haste scrolls/books and others get it, but dont get mass heals or aov instead. The gap is objectively smaller.

I think that if people want any hope getting what they want (casting on their summons again) they should first accept the current reality and make suggestions for improvement from the proper realistic standpoint. How much to nerf and what class should be used for reference, would be a good start.

*warlock summons are very effective in pvp but it's the rest of the warlock's kit on top of that which really makes the difference for the uprising new hawt warlock.

[Kalthariam]

Before the Sequencer change and the buffs that were added to the Planar Conduit.

Planar Conduit was a JOKE compared to mummy dust, even when you could fully buff them. They were barely better than Summon Monster 9, because they were drastically under tuned. You could do things, but it was not fast and it was not easy, but hey. I could buff my own summons and make them just passable enough to do mid 20's dungeons on my own at level 30.

Planar Conduit was not a problem before they were forced to buff every single summon because limiting what spells went on summons went bad.

None of these summons were that big of a deal before. People didn't complain about ant/frogs being OP before the sequencer change, because they were simply annoying and in two actions you could dismiss them if you wanted to, but it took them forever to do anything.

No, someone just decided to kick the boat over and capsize the entire play style for..? What reasons exactly?

Because sometimes some classes could buff their summons with spells others couldn't? Oh wait. we literally have that same issue right now! So this entire "Experiment" has literally lead us full circle back to the haves and the have nots when it comes to summoning and there is no summoning parity or baseline.

Also now we're completely at a point where conjurations are literally useless if someone has enough Lore or UMD to cast WoF (Which again, is not hard nor is it a major investment, as you should be trying to get WoF anyways, because it not only messes with Conjurations but it messes with literally everyone) so, the Haves (Warlocks and to a lesser extend Palemasters) whom have protections from WoF are now massively on a different level than anyone else on the server, because they are literally the ONLY people that get any form of protection on their summons. (Because of course warlocks do. Warlocks get literally everything).

So.. again, if this "Experiment" was made to make everything baseline across the board for all conjurers. Why did you immediately afterwards add spells that only let SOME classes ward their summons in ways other classes have no access to? Then Remove the protections Conjurations had from most, but not ALL classes? Why are Palemasters and Warlocks the ONLY summoners that are not immediately completely screwed over by a commoner tossing out a WoF scroll? Why are Wizards and Sorcerers the only people that get meaningful AoE spells to buff their own summons?

Clerics are now the absolute worst Conjurers on the server, except maybe rangers, because you know Ranger pets also got roped into this madness, and now their even more just RP fluffy than they were before.

None of the stated "Objectives" ever given for this sequencer update have been accomplished, every goal has failed, all this has done is frustrate and aggravate people whom have had their entire builds made more and more worthless as time goes on, and more and more casters feel pressured to just make an infinite caster or a warlock just to have some semblance of normalcy back.

[MissEvelyn]

The implementation is also inconsistent setting lore and mechanics wise, as you can STILL cast spells on summons using area effect buffs and there zero in world justification for it. What is the logic behind these spells working for a mage and not other? IC continuity should be important on a RP server.

Tediousness aside, this is also a big point that I never, ever see any real answers to, whenever raised.

It's also, in my humble opinion, a wasted opportunity to create some sort of mini-Spellplague event (but not like the actual Spellplague, gods no), that in the end would explain and justify such foundational changes to how magic works in the Realms

[Hazard]

@Hazard you havent attempted to answer any of my questions. How much do we nerf and what antfrog summoner we use as a pillar of reference (or what warlock build, whatever). You already begin your post with a refusal to accept the reality. We are not in square one at all, for better or worse. I've described what I referred to as square one and we're really not there. Summons do not stomp in pvp anymore* . That's a fact I think we all agree on so that's far from square one. Also how can you say that the disparity between different summoners is higher than before when they all get exactly the same buffs and stats now. The only difference is that some classes need to read mass haste scrolls/books and others get it, but dont get mass heals or aov instead. The gap is objectively smaller.

I think that if people want any hope getting what they want (casting on their summons again) they should first accept the current reality and make suggestions for improvement from the proper realistic standpoint. How much to nerf and what class should be used for reference, would be a good start.

*warlock summons are very effective in pvp but it's the rest of the warlock's kit on top of that which really makes the difference for the uprising new hawt warlock.

I've responded to you. You can read it again, or we can both just move on and avoid a circular argument of yah-uh vs nah-uh.

Also just fyi @ing does nothing on this forum. You need to quote me if you want me to get a notification about it.

[Ork]

And all it took to get nowhere was a complete overhaul of how spells work on summons,

On a roll, Hazard. I feel like we as players have to take crazy pills to be content with this system because the big man did it himself, but sequencers are not fine. Even before summons had plenty of counter plays through breach. Using spell resistance on your summon meant that you took two actions: breach then wof.

I'd also like to chalk sequencers up to an experiment that didn't work. There isn't much to change either. Leave the sequencers in but let mages cast spells on their summons again.

[AnselHoenheim]

Personally, I think it's important for the balance of the server that every caster class gets in the same boat:

1) All the summons get some sort of protection against WoF, but summons stats get nerfed to the stats pre-sequencers

Or

2) No summons are protected against WoF, and outsiders lose their natural SR (Yes, all of them), which includes celestial summons losing their CD WoF, but they keep the stats as they have now

I think this are the only two avenues that would balance everything around summons, because right now, as 31st of May, warlock is the best class period in Arelith due to the massive stats that their unremovable summons have.

[Kalthariam]

Putting summons to pre-sequencer stats, without having the ability to cast wards on them puts them in a completely unusuable state both in PvE and PvP.

They were buffed across the board baseline, because the summons were not strong enough with just sequencers to be able to do anything.

If we're reverting them back to Pre-Sequencer stats, all of them need to be able to be able to be targeted by single target buff spells again.

Otherwise your not just killing Summons completely for PvP content, your completely destroying them for PvE content as well.

[-XXX-]

IMO there's just this inconsistency between warlock and the other summoner classes.

On one hand, I can see why they did it - warlock built around epic eldritch summon doesn't really have all that much else going for it once you remove their pet - especially in PvP.

On the other hand, warlock is rather overtuned (particularly for PvE) as a result atm. - while there sure are some other builds that can solo the Last Bastille, only warlock makes it seem easy.

---

Ad sequencers - those merely reshuffled the dynamic between summoner classes.
Before the sequencers the cleric could push conduit celestials into overdrive while putting other summoner builds to shame.
This was irrespecting of the rest of the summoner's kit too.
Sequencers took that away along with the tedious windup and in combination with the mass ZOO spells made sure that classes that straight up depended on summons got better versions than classes that didn't.

Other than maybe the feeling that cleric pulled the short straw here, there's very little wrong with the sequencers IMO.
And even then, the cleric class has a lot more going for it - it's not like they'd be solely dependent on pets to function in PvE like the wizard is.

[Kalthariam]

I mean. As a healer cleric, I am 1000% completely dependent on Conjurations if I attempt to do anything without a party.

Some paths of clerics are less dependent on summons.. because they can't be dependent on summons and were given other things to compensate for such.

I also want to point out that the Celestial Conduit still has absolutely awful weapons and is wearing bronze full plate armor, because they were clearly designed with a priest buffing their weapons and armor in mind. Despite being impossible to do now which results in the Celestial stream being awful now.

[Xerah]

The best thing to lobby for is consistency.

I have a character who is a bard4/dirge singer 10/palemaster 16 (which gets 22 SR); guess what that character can do when it gets WoF? Much less than that warlock who got the crazy resistance to it (which can easily be done by a T4 summon). As mentioned above, healer cleric is another one that is hooped. There are others too.

The two things that should be done are:

1. Adjust the stats of the summons to be more consistent (feel free to remove WoF from summons while you're at it)
   AND
2. a) Remove the warlock saving throw and add SR to the sequencer items (something like 26 or whatever); this has the issue of giving additional resistance to classes that can melee beside the summon
   OR
3. b) Keep the warlock saving though and add it to specific paths/classes/etc. (the issue here is maybe one gets overlooked)

Perhaps this additional defence could be locked into some additional feats. Your typical melee battle cleric/FS is not taking ESF conj/necro, so requiring that might be the step in distinguishing between the two types (or your melee ones can weaken their style for these feats)

[-XXX-]

Consistency sure. But this is not only about WoF, since there's PvP and there's PvE.

Where PvE is concerned WoF doesn't come up as much. What does with regards to warlock however is:

• turn resistance - some PvE content can turn the conduit summons fleeing in an instant and even summons with increased turn resistance like the fugue hound or vampires keep getting rebuked. This can be prohibitive for a summoner build. A warlock's eldritch summon just laughs at that.
• haste inconsistency - warlocks are getting infinite haste that also gets applied to their pet when cast on self. This is a super big deal especially when considering that warlocks get mass haste as a regular spell.

PvP is then all about WoF:

• as has been mentioned, the summoner warlock isn't the only build that's virtually toothless without their pet, yet they're the only one that's getting a special treatment here which seems rather arbitrary.

[Android Sufferer]

Revert the warlock change and simply change WoF's interaction with summons to:

Save vs removal.
Saveless ₂ round blind and immobilise that can be restored.

This gives parity in action economy for non divine summoners (scroll for scroll) if they remove it.

Advantage in the case of divine casters, who have WoF and resto access at 1/2 round, which I think would be fine considering they took the biggest hit from buff sequencers.

Has in built risk/reward due to the cast range of restoration.

It also gives the option to pop a remove blind/deaf pot for a slight advantage, with the drawback of summons being immobile for a bit.

Some summons would need to be toned down, Planar conduit especially, but that's a seperate discussion.