True Sight, Cornersneaking, and Amplify

[Power Word, Haste]

Hello,

I would like to say first I think Cornersneaking is a cool mechanic (whether you call it one or not I will be referring to it as such in this post) that rewards game skill and map knowledge by allowing characters specced into Hide and Move Silently to utilize these skills to get an advantage on their opponent mid-combat. Think rogues, hiding away* to pop out a bit later and sneak attack an enemy. I do however think there is very little counterplay to this strategy if you are not a character with spell focus feats in Divination for increased duration true sight. Let's see what the counterplay is:

• True Sight scrolls - A True Seeing duration of one round just isn't long enough, and the animation to read a scroll is long and clunky. As I said above, without spell focus feats, it's just a pitiful duration for using during a combat scenario.

• True Sight casting - A caster casting true sight has a significantly better chance of catching a sneaker out like this because the casting animation is much more fluid and faster than a scroll. If the caster has spell focus feats in Divination, then they can very easily counter the stealther with the increased True Seeing duration.

• High Spot or Listen - Right off the bat, characters that are not elves and do not have 10 or more rogue levels are flattened in this category. Having to stop what you're doing to go detect mode mid combat is not only janky but unreliable as it won't take effect until next round's roll where you will get the full detection skill applied. For reference, characters WITH keen senses or detect mode ON make rolls of [Spot/Listen + d20 +/- situational modifiers] (there are a ton of these and I won't go into them here) vs [Hide/MS + d20 +/- situational modifiers.] Now, characters WITHOUT keen senses and with detect mode OFF make their contested roll at [1/2Spot/Listen + d10 +/- situational modifiers] vs [Hide/MS + d20 +/- situational modifiers]. Their detection is halved, and you will have no chance of ever detecting someone specced into stealth.
  For characters that are elves or 10+ rogue, they have a shot of detecting a stealther, but there are many variables to it. Non-wis Spot based characters with skill focus and epic skill focus: spot before clairvoyance or true seeing usually get in the 70's-80's range. A dex-based character with epic skill focus: hide/ms and relevant gear (rings of hiding, other big bonus gear) can hit over 100 in each but with race/feat choice can push it even higher than that. Characters speccing into Listen have a MUCH better chance because of the Amplify spell, which adds a whopping +20 listen for 1 minute per level! This means 7 minutes per use of an Amplify wand or potion or scroll. This is a gigantic bonus, and Listen-specced characters using Amplify consumables will usually blow away a stealther in the detection game.

Options 2 and 3 have their merits, but Option 1, scrolls, falls short. This True Seeing effect is also the only way many, if not most, characters can ever hope of being able to detect a stealth-based character. For discussion purposes I think a True Seeing base duration increase to 2 or 3 rounds would help alleviate this issue and give Cornersneaking sufficient counterplay to characters utilizing scrolls, because it can feel overbearing if you are someone stuck using a scroll due to the fact you are completely at the mercy of the cornersneaker at all times of the engagement.

As an aside, I think amplify is a bit too strong. +20 to a skill for turns/level is absolutely gargantuan, and anyone can use this spell for a duration of 7 minutes with each use. Halving it to +10 or making it rounds per level would make it much more fair, in my opinion.

*Whether it is nonsensical or not logically for someone to vanish this way, frankly I don't care, because this is just a video game.

[AstralUniverse]

It's balanced out by the movement speed difference.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

adding to what AstralUniverse said, you'll usually have plenty of time to counter the cornersneaker when they run to a corner. sometimes you can even catch them and prevent their sneak button from hiding them.

[Shadowy Reality]

Confused with the movement speed difference part.

When is the corner sneaker moving slower? During stealth? That's fine they don't need to move fast if they can't be detected.
I will also mention that many builds have access to permanent blinding speed and rogues move fast when stealthed.

I have recently had two encounters with corner sneakers. I do not think TS scrolls would have helped at all, as soon as they see it they need only gain some distance and corner sneak again in 6 seconds, it's not hard, I can't catch them during those 6 seconds.

The only way I found of having some counterplay without traditional detection was literally standing still and spamming Knockdown so I would immediately attempt it upon being attacked.

[magistrasa]

Summons chase stealthers to the ends of the earth, even if they can't see who they're chasing.

You're not flatfooted while strafing or chugging potions (or water bottles).

You can outrun anyone while they're in stealth.

While they're disengaged from a fight, you're given the time and breathing space to do whatever you like.

Corner sneaking rarely wins you a fight you wouldn't have probably won otherwise. The best it offers a skulker is the promise of survival and retreat. True seeing is a menace to any roleplay involving spying and subterfuge, and its nerf was a godsend.

[svet]

I agree that true seeing could use a buff by extending its duration.

It's balanced out by the movement speed difference.

I do not think that it is balanced out by the movement speed difference. Stealth is a free action that you can easily make use of by breaking a tiny bit of line of sight. Using a true seeing scroll takes a whole round. The person with the scroll will never be able to catch up because while they are trying to use it, the cornersneaker will get out of stealth to reach the now stationary person and successfully get the first attacks which makes it more of an offensive tool.

you'll usually have plenty of time to counter the cornersneaker when they run to a corner

Cornersneaking can be utilized while you are the one being chased and it actually leaves your enemy no time to do anything about it, because the person can stealth right as they are about to break the line of sight. And no, acid bombs won't help. Freedom of movement exists, plus this everyone's movement speed is capped at 150%.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I actually think that people underestimate how broken corner sneaking can be, because it's a difficult and frankly boring process to get right. But while it's true that there are ways to counter it or catch them before they hit the corner, these are very temporary, and rogues are pretty durable. So, unless you get super lucky and kill them right then and there, they are just going to reset the corner over and over again until you get bored of chasing them around and/or run out of scrolls. Once it gets to that point, and the rogue can now strike from stealth at will, it's only a matter of chipping away until everyone is dead.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

you'll usually have plenty of time to counter the cornersneaker when they run to a corner

Cornersneaking can be utilized while you are the one being chased and it actually leaves your enemy no time to do anything about it, because the person can stealth right as they are about to break the line of sight. And no, acid bombs won't help. Freedom of movement exists, plus this everyone's movement speed is capped at 150%.

stay hasted. I've watched a lot of duels where if done correctly you can lunge yourself into the corner spot and when they go into stealth, they'll just briefly be defenseless, rather than disappearing

[Flower Power]

Guess who has a really easy time staying hasted?

Stealthers and rogues, with their near-constant uptime instant action haste that doesn't break stealth.

The stealth mechanics strongly benefit rogues, and Arelith's TS nerfs have only exacerbated this mechanical imbalance; unless you have unlimited gold and an entire faction feeding you dragon blood, you WILL run out of TS scrolls and other consumables before the high AC e-dodge rogue runs out of patience.

[magistrasa]

unless you get super lucky and kill them right then and there, they are just going to reset the corner over and over again until you get bored of chasing them around and/or run out of scrolls. Once it gets to that point, and the rogue can now strike from stealth at will, it's only a matter of chipping away until everyone is dead.

Sounds like in this scenario you have a lot of time to assess the situation and realize you lack the resources and positioning to defeat your opponent. Sooooo, at what point do you consider just running away or fetching reinforcements?

[svet]

Sounds like in this scenario you have a lot of time to assess the situation and realize you lack the resources and positioning to defeat your opponent. Sooooo, at what point do you consider just running away or fetching reinforcements?

Just because you can escape that does not mean something is not strong. In the past, you could also word of faith 42SR Planar Conduits/Gates after throwing a mord gem or run away from them but guess what? Sequencers got nerfed.

[Power Word, Haste]

unless you get super lucky and kill them right then and there, they are just going to reset the corner over and over again until you get bored of chasing them around and/or run out of scrolls. Once it gets to that point, and the rogue can now strike from stealth at will, it's only a matter of chipping away until everyone is dead.

Sounds like in this scenario you have a lot of time to assess the situation and realize you lack the resources and positioning to defeat your opponent. Sooooo, at what point do you consider just running away or fetching reinforcements?

Being forced to leave the engagement because you can never hit your opponent is not very fun and shouldn't be considered a counterplay option. The proposed solution I gave above, increasing base True Seeing duration from 1 round to 2 or 3 rounds would give non-ESF Div scroll users a realistic counterplay option to cornersneak spam that doesn't involve leaving the engagement entirely.

[Deep Fried Thinking Emoji]

True Sight lasts enough.

A rogue is not going to kill you in a flurry and they are vulnerable afterwards unless you are fighting them right besides a corner, in which case, as you said, is a case of game skill and map knowledge. Just drag the fight somewhere else.

[magistrasa]

Being forced to leave the engagement because you can never hit your opponent is not very fun and shouldn't be considered a counterplay option. The proposed solution I gave above, increasing base True Seeing duration from 1 round to 2 or 3 rounds would give non-ESF Div scroll users a realistic counterplay option to cornersneak spam that doesn't involve leaving the engagement entirely.

I understand that not outright winning an engagement is not going to feel very rewarding or fulfilling. But what I don't understand is why it's not considered counterplay. It's just realistic. Dare I say it's a way to roleplay your character? If the situation is turning into a long, drawn-out, ring-around-the-rosie, where you're running out of resources and they're not running out of corners, you and your character should be able to understand that you lack the ability to confront this enemy. The onus is on you to act accordingly. When you run away, you're not dead at the end of the fight, even if you didn't win. Not every build is going to have an easy way to kill every other build. As it happens, that's a reality stealthers run into fairly frequently! It's not as if their investment into the skill doesn't come at a cost. If a rogue is cleverly positioning themselves in an area where you can't easily chase them down or spot them, even with true seeing on your side, then that sounds like they earned their advantage. You're not forced to fight them on their terms, and not every fight needs to end with a corpse on the ground. Cornersneaking is not "overpowered" - it's just annoying.

Final Verdict: Skill Issue

[Power Word, Haste]

Final Verdict: Skill Issue

[and break onetwothreefourfive]

A rogue is not going to ....

It's not as if their investment into the skill doesn't come at a cost.

What's the cost?

It's not rogues; there's a reason Weapon Masters, Vigis, Clerics, Wizards, Hemos, Arcane Archers - anything that can dip hide/ms - is taking it. When was the last time a non-corner sneaker won an Arena style pvp event? Corner sneaking is overtuned.

I'm not sure about TS scrolls being extended, but I am a fan of a cooldown on the stealth button ala NWN2.

[msterswrdsmn]

Buffing truesight sadly isn't the best answer to counter cornersneaking.

Having played on both ends of the cornersneaker vs everyone else, I can honestly say Truesight or lack of was never a deciding factor. If anything, truesight embolded people to make -really- bad choices when fighting. "I have true sight, so I can see him!" usually led to people running blindly around corners, right into either:
A. A trap.
B: Me making a lot of free quick attacks against your flatfooted character before they can target me.
C. Me dying in 2 rounds

Thing is, if I die in two rounds, I realistically never really had a chance of winning to begin with, even with cornersneaking.

When fighting against someone who is heavily cornersneaking, your best tactic is usually to avoid corners and retreat to a more open area. If you've invested heavily in detection skills, you can probably find someone of similar level to you as they approach. When it comes to detection vs stealth though, it usually falls in favor of whomever invested the most; theres very little ground between "i'll never see you" to "i'll instantly see you" once you get into higher levels.

Similarly, i've played on pvp arena servers where they nerfed the ever loving stuffing out of stealth in general around combat and it was awful. Overnight, all stealth builds were pretty much dropped and never picked up again. You can't really put something in that only works on pvp; its all or nothing ,and I can honestly say stealth builds have enough issues as is with pve. Monsters have a chance to randomly get a massive detection boost. Things -will- chase you and attack you even if they can't actually see you. Heavy stealth investment usually comes at an expense of some other survival skill or faucet. Etc, etc....

I hate to say "skill issues", because thats not 100% accurate, but skill does play a role in countering stealthers. There are always going to be things you're going to struggle against; some builds will struggle more than others, but nothing is invunerable.

[Power Word, Haste]

Worth noting I wrote this thread while having 5 level 30 hide/MS specced PCs and only 1 who isn’t. I haven’t had any issues with opposing cornersneaking characters in some time, it was just on my mind after talking to some friends. This isn’t a salty post, just bringing about some discussion.

[Choofed]

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=40445

Eh, I proposed before a solution to the annoying instance where you're fighting a person and they keep just rotating around the exact same object to sneak that you should be able to deny that particular object. I admit Huge Radius was a bad call, should have been small.

I agree Corner Sneaking can get absolutely rediculous at times. Some people don't truly comprehend just how high the skill cap can be on corner sneaking till the point it gets unbeatable. Lets not forget a corner sneaking archer won multiple arena tournaments in Cordor.

[Hazard]

Just want to point out that we're not all playing from the same place with the same latency and that this is an RPG, in-character roleplaying server. Playerskill should be as little (as realistically possible) the deciding factor in fights, because we aren't fighting player skill vs player skill, ideally. We're fighting character vs character.

Obviously that's not possible, entirely. But where possible the skill ceiling should probably lean towards being lowered rather than raised, in RPG settings that are in-character. Unless we want to drop all facades of this not just being an arena server where we all talk like dweebs through our characters so the DMs don't get wise.

If people want to flex their 'skill' there are other games that can actually handle that. There's no amount of balancing, tweaking or adjustments that will ever make NWN PvP a satisfying experience for any sane person.

Someone should not be hindered too much by their latency, physical disabilities, etc when their character is the one who is supposed to be good at things, not them. At least not on a roleplaying server.

Example, someone's character may be "fast and stealthy" but the player themselves isn't able to react fast and make use of the corner sneaking. So is their character slow and clunky now? No. They have high dexterity and high stealth. There's an erosion of what is IC and what is OOC there.

Some people pointed out that stealthers have it hard enough as it is, and I agree ... so I don't think extending TS or putting a CD on stealth is the best way to go about it, but at the same time being cheesed over and over by a corner-sneaker is incredibly annoying.

If I understand the original post, they suggest buffing the time of true seeing scrolls only, not the spell? and at the same time nerfing amplify. This could help stealthers generally be undetected unless someone has grown suspicious or conflict has begun, without buffing all true seeing. If that was the intention, then, that sounds pretty good to me as someone who 'does' play a stealther and also 'can' cheese cornersneaking as much as I care to.

[Dreams]

Every single character on the server has the opportunity to attain 35 lore and cast True Seeing from a scroll, which is a 100% chance of seeing a hidden character. Said character may have sacrificed everything for the sake of getting a high hide/move silently score. They then have to unstealth + hide again outside of the time to be able to vanish, because True Seeing is also applying See Invisibility + Ultravision, which means using invisibility or darkness to hide is now no longer an option.

It is already skewed against the stealther. 100% of characters can choose to have a 100% chance of seeing stealthed characters. Nothing else in the entire game is so accessible or works at this consistency.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Worth noting I wrote this thread while having 5 level 30 hide/MS specced PCs and only 1 who isn’t. I haven’t had any issues with opposing cornersneaking characters in some time, it was just on my mind after talking to some friends. This isn’t a salty post, just bringing about some discussion.

I say this is preposterous, no one can make a post on these forums without being salty about something bad happening in game to them involving the subject matter of their post!

Lets not forget a corner sneaking archer won multiple arena tournaments in Cordor.

You know, I didn't know this was true, but I knew it was coming. I had a few months to play this year, and after examining AA I was like "this plus cornersneaking = murder bot" and quickly proceeded to not only make one (though mine is far from the broken version, I went more thematic) but made them a wood worker with the intention of selling as many bows as possible before the inevitable nerf.

3 ashwood longbows sold in the last week and counting, from a shop with a terrible location and an item that many just make themselves. Not to mention the 50 or so 500 stacks of high-end arrows that I've moved as well. Yeah, the arcane archer summer has begun

Final Verdict: Skill Issue

I suppose this depends on how you define skill. If it's just following the current conventional wisdom, then yes, I can see how someone can think corner sneaking is fine. The build chasers are just starting to get a hold on it now, and it's mostly been played by folks who just wanted to play a rogue or whatever for fun for years.

But if you have the "skill" to see the writing on the wall ahead of conventional wisdom, you probably have noticed that the flattening of AB combined with saves hostile toward casters on every character and boosted offensive power for builds that can use corner sneaking to a very good or better effect, and you probably saw this coming a mile away.

I know I did; I've been talking about this since COT took a massive AB nerf and labeled this as one of the downsides when that happened.

[and break onetwothreefourfive]

Said character may have sacrificed everything for the sake of getting a high hide/move silently score.

It is already skewed against the stealther.

A minor gift, 66 skill points, enchants, rings of hiding and maybe ESF, if you want. It's hardly everything. But this thread isn't about stealth - it's about corner sneaking.

And the ones using corner sneaking right now are not the ones who live and die by stealth mechanics - they're weapon masters, clerics, hemos, warlocks, wizard, etcetera ad nauseum; who can easily survive without it (well, maybe not wizards). It's just really great in pvp. With how line of sight works (even in arenas) and AoO never registering on running opponents, it's essentially HIPS for anyone that dips into a class that has them as class skills because the stealth button does not have a cool down. Someone pops a 1000+ gold true strike scroll? Run behind a chair. They pop it again? Run behind another chair.

My two active PCs are a WM with 80+ hide/ms and an Arcane Archer with 100+ hide/ms.

[Dreams]

Yeah, so this sounds like an accessibility issue more than a stealth issue.

[MissEvelyn]

Just want to point out that we're not all playing from the same place with the same latency and that this is an RPG, in-character roleplaying server. Playerskill should be as little (as realistically possible) the deciding factor in fights, because we aren't fighting player skill vs player skill, ideally. We're fighting character vs character.

Obviously that's not possible, entirely. But where possible the skill ceiling should probably lean towards being lowered rather than raised, in RPG settings that are in-character. Unless we want to drop all facades of this not just being an arena server where we all talk like dweebs through our characters so the DMs don't get wise.

If people want to flex their 'skill' there are other games that can actually handle that. There's no amount of balancing, tweaking or adjustments that will ever make NWN PvP a satisfying experience for any sane person.

Someone should not be hindered too much by their latency, physical disabilities, etc when their character is the one who is supposed to be good at things, not them. At least not on a roleplaying server.

Example, someone's character may be "fast and stealthy" but the player themselves isn't able to react fast and make use of the corner sneaking. So is their character slow and clunky now? No. They have high dexterity and high stealth. There's an erosion of what is IC and what is OOC there.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

There are plenty of (free, even!) PvP games out there. Games that are SO much better at showing your skill in the game.