Too many warlock versus other casters

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kinginyellow
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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by kinginyellow »

I'm late to this thread but I thought I might as well throw in my two cents.

So you want to play a mage.

1 - You want to use your magic from a distance to dominate the battlefield.

2 - You want to be able to adapt to the situation with smart spell choices.

Starting with point 1.

You're not going to do this with a Vancian mage. Even with the cantrip changes that tried to push to allow a wizard to be able to sometimes throw a high level spell without spending a spell slot (with no such consession made to sorcerer) the way vancian spellcasting is set up is simply not condusive to the encounter design of Arelith. It works on tabletop, it doesn't work on multiple encounter long dungeons that Arelith has.

This is why spellswords are so popular, since buffs have a larger impact than damage spells, and why summons are so prevalent, since a summon will also have a larger impact than a damage spell.

You can still have specific spells ready for specific encounters, but because most boss enemies at endgame are also going to have insanely high spell saves, this is simply not a good approach to take.

You want to be a blaster mage? Play warlock, Defiler Cleric or Hemomancer.

2- You want to be able to adapt to the situation with smart spell choices.

Because saving throws are so high for both players and endgame mobs, the odds that casting a one-use offensive spell and having it do nothing is fairly high. Since you have no way to refund that spell slot besides being a wizard and having prepared the cantrip buff that rerolls your spell, the odds that you waste an action and one of your valuable spell slots is fairly high.

This reverts back to point 1. There's a reason the current Meta is summons and buffs for PVE, saveless spells and effects for pvp. And its not just because of long dungeons, its also because if your spell doesn't do damage without a saving throw attached, then you're going to have a bad time.

This doesn't mean that spells shouldn't have counters, even ray spells have to deal with touch AC and Concealment. But when almost every spell is "Save for Half (No damage with evasion)" or "Save to Negate" then a majority of the spell list is worthless.

This topic isn't true just for vancian mages by the way, its also true for Warlock. Even the Warlock paths that do use some DC spells like Feylock with Mindfog, its not just because they can infinitely cast their spells, its because mindfog does something even on a successful save. You still get that 1 round daze and reduced saving throws.

But above all, its because warlock can afford to throw down that mindfog once they have infinite casts of it on every encounter, because there are so many encounters. While a vancian mage is going to at best be able to throw down 4. They'll be out of juice on the way to the dungeon.

Warlock is popular not just because of its class design, but because it gets to actually use its whole kit, all the time. Clerics get to be in a similar boat with the refund chance from specific cleric paths, but they end up being harder to play than a warlock because they will still run out of juice eventually.

I'm sure some people here have played Risenholm. I'm sure some people have have looked at their metamagic system. Risenholm has embraced the fact that for a mage to work in what is a normal NWN server, and not rely on the same old tactics we've been using for 20+ years, you need to give them a way to get their spells back during play.

You will continue to see more people playing Warlocks and other magic classes that have a way around the vancian system, or greatly benefit from the current meta (Spellsword), until this changes.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by RedGiant »

Several threads are coming together here, and it is less that Warlocks are the problem. It is more balancing the other arcane base classes IMO.

Arcane flux should not be underestimated. It makes wizards playable and make spellswords actually feel magical.

Specialists, for their part, get signature spells. Invoker changes are inbound. And its hard to give anything to sorcerers without overplaying their historically amazing synergies.

As it comes to vancian classes and the modern mmorpg...as much as I am a fan of classic DnD, I'm almost now of the opinion, put everything on timers!

Make it a slow but meaningful recharge. Maybe relate it to spell level? I dunno. That solves the pacing issue but the saves issue will still be there.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by BlinkDelight »

RedGiant wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 7:06 pm

Several threads are coming together here, and it is less that Warlocks are the problem. It is more balancing the other arcane base classes IMO.

Arcane flux should not be underestimated. It makes wizards playable and make spellswords actually feel magical.

Specialists, for their part, get signature spells. Invoker changes are inbound. And its hard to give anything to sorcerers without overplaying their historically amazing synergies.

As it comes to vancian classes and the modern mmorpg...as much as I am a fan of classic DnD, I'm almost now of the opinion, put everything on timers!

Make it a slow but meaningful recharge. Maybe relate it to spell level? I dunno. That solves the pacing issue but the saves issue will still be there.

Give wizards pearls of power! Crafted items or just another part of their tool kit, which restores an empty spell slot of the associated pearl of power level.

Very common item in tabletop DND:
Pearl of Power: This seemingly normal pearl of average size and luster is a potent aid to all spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast. The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast. The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the pearl. Different pearls exist for recalling one spell per day of each level from 1st through 9th and for the recall of two spells per day (each of a different level, 6th or lower).

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by AstralUniverse »

Edens_Fall wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:19 pm

I wish sorcerers had arcane flux. :cry:

That would be nice, not gonna lie. However...

I think that if we look at sorc vs wizard, the sorc is more powerful in 1v1 mage duels and generally is more offensive glass cannon, more binary and is designed and advertised as raw power, rather than utility, where as wizard (and even more so in Arelith) is more towards utility and having a spell ready for every situation (wizards are also better at DC spells because they get more feats to take spell foci with, but that also doesnt quite matter much in Arelith's saves economy).

So my point is, I dont know if giving sorcerer more raw power (rather than some qol utility, exclusive to sorcerer, that wizard does not have) is the answer here. We should probably focus more towards developing bloodlines.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by Choofed »

Irongron wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2023 1:18 pm

Back in the days of yore my issue with Warlock wasn't the mechanical power (though the very first blast was off the charts), but the awful cost becoming one would not be reflected, either in the RP of the individual players (frankly a great many characters are so full of themselves and their own general awesomeness it was hard to imagine them RPing fear of their patron, and less still the lack of free will that comes with the pact), or by the mechanics themselves.

In the latter of these two cases we really don't do anything at all, so in reality the 'price' of such power is nonexistent. For a time I was in favour of a quest-like system whereby warlocks would actually be required to commit atrocities and other heinous acts in game, on behalf their patron, but in reality this could quickly become stale when coded, and I would much, much prefer it was reflected in the roleplay.

My worry? That it hasn't been, and that being a warlock is now so uncontroversial as to barely cause any scandal whatsoever.

An that's essentially my stance on their mechanical power - it's exactly what the pact was intended to bestow, so for me it is no problem.

If, of course, the price carried real in-game consequences.

Gron, are you aware it is being pushed onto Governments forcefully that they must legalise warlocks by DM NPCs? And that they can't be descriminatory against them?

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by Paint »

Choofed wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:07 pm

Gron, are you aware it is being pushed onto Governments forcefully that they must legalise warlocks by DM NPCs? And that they can't be descriminatory against them?

More importantly, this is a more recent change, which has made it easier to do warlocky stuff and commit warlockery. It would... be easy to... reverse... such changes...

However, no such rules enforcement exist to my knowledge in Brogendenstein or Bendir at least.

If it's going to be a big hassle and possibly get you into OOC trouble to go after warlocks in cities where warlocks are, then you're going to stop pursuing warlocks for being warlocks. If people stop pursuing warlocks, then warlocks become more acceptable. The more acceptable warlocks are, the less their pact matters. The less their pact matters, the less interesting their roleplay becomes. If you erode the consequences, of course, there's going to be no consequences.

Arelith has this friction of wanting to make the game more acceptable and fun to play for everyone while occasionally trampling over the class fantasies it tries to cultivate in the process, and I think that warlock and its current position is a prime example of this.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by kinginyellow »

I can't comment on surface politics since I haven't played surface for 3 years.

But regarding Irongron's comment, I think its a bad idea to depend on community enforcement in order to keep powerful classes in check.

This is especially true for Warlock. Because while there's people that play Warlock because they like the RP, I know my fair share of people who play the class because its easy to play. I know new players that joined arelith and for their first character they made an underdark warlock in order to avoid having to deal with the shunning RP, because warlock doesn't have to deal with any of the vancian systems.

While its not a correlation that strong classes are easy to play, it is true that the skill floor for playing a warlock is a lot higher than a regular caster especially for someone who's never played NWN.

But the other reason why I don't think its a good idea is because you end up with the current situation, where eventually the effort to maintain the shunning rp is not worth the grievance, because while conflict RP might be fun, I'm certainly not the only person who thinks exiling a low level warlock from every settlement because you caught them early is not really engaging and meaningful RP, it just feels bad for all parties involved.

The other reason is nuance. The moment you predicate rp interactions with a specific class with hostility as a means to balance out their mechanical power, all nuance around that class is thrown out the window. While I haven't played on the surface for years now, I've seen that there is an intentional effort to bring nuance back into the game, instead of good vs evil being purely black and white. That ties into Warlocks as well, because at the end of the day, what a warlock is doing is no different from what a cleric or a paladin is doing. Warlocks just have a wider array of creatures they can enter into pacts for power with that vary in background. In the cosmological sense, all of the above are the pawns of an Outsider with or without divine rank.

Last edited by kinginyellow on Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by Eyeliner »

I'd guess the intent of the DMs isn't to force everyone be friends with warlocks but rather not to exclude them from any RP possibilities at all in cities based on their class alone.

Like you can shun them and call them out and argue and have arguments and conflicts that may turn into PVP, but it needs to be based on story and actions instead of simply who they are.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by The First Vicar »

kinginyellow wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:36 am

Warlock is popular not just because of its class design, but because it gets to actually use its whole kit, all the time.

Well said, I wish most other classes would get a redesign LIKE the warlocks. It feels like someone spent real effort on warlock to give it multiple avenues of builds and actually give it some power. Not overpowered, but just right, and didnt try to starve it to death by weighing it down with multiple conditions.

Do I like the fact that going star3 will make my pet into an abomination that shouldn't exist in this world and makes the entire Hub stare at me in confusion, or turn around and face the wall until it's gone? No, but we can avoid that by NOT going star 3 and just going star 2 for some stat loss. (-3 spot?) Still groovy, now I can just double pact and go something else.

Also, Withering ray doesn't care about your ac or concealment. It just blasts, it's way less effective than eldritch blasting in terms of damage, but atleast it will hit more often and do 40-110 or so each round depending on if they pass the dc save. (non-blaster)

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by D4wN »

Irongron wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2023 1:18 pm

Back in the days of yore my issue with Warlock wasn't the mechanical power (though the very first blast was off the charts), but the awful cost becoming one would not be reflected, either in the RP of the individual players (frankly a great many characters are so full of themselves and their own general awesomeness it was hard to imagine them RPing fear of their patron, and less still the lack of free will that comes with the pact), or by the mechanics themselves.

In the latter of these two cases we really don't do anything at all, so in reality the 'price' of such power is nonexistent. For a time I was in favour of a quest-like system whereby warlocks would actually be required to commit atrocities and other heinous acts in game, on behalf their patron, but in reality this could quickly become stale when coded, and I would much, much prefer it was reflected in the roleplay.

My worry? That it hasn't been, and that being a warlock is now so uncontroversial as to barely cause any scandal whatsoever.

An that's essentially my stance on their mechanical power - it's exactly what the pact was intended to bestow, so for me it is no problem.

If, of course, the price carried real in-game consequences.

If the team didn’t force players to just accept warlocks in their settlements like they’re just any other caster I don’t feel there would be this issue. The consequences were a lot harsher being a Warlock when they weren’t welcomed in surface settlements or the arcane tower. Which truthfully also brings up the whole weirdness of being forced into acceptance of animators and fiend binders right on the doorsteps of two settlements who are not okay with that. The erudite is for people like that. The arcane tower shouldn’t be. And there shouldn’t be surfacers forced into tolerating and even protecting animators, warlocks and fiend binders. Then you simply allow that to be the status quo and you get people desensitised towards that. Then you get warlocks acting like their pact is just some friendly dude sitting there giving them wholesome powers and they don’t understand why some people hate them and complain that they are the victim. If we stop normalising these sorts of characters as a server direction, we wouldn’t have these issues.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by Subtext »

D4wN wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 10:13 am

If the team didn’t force players to just accept warlocks in their settlements like they’re just any other caster I don’t feel there would be this issue. The consequences were a lot harsher being a Warlock when they weren’t welcomed in surface settlements or the arcane tower. Which truthfully also brings up the whole weirdness of being forced into acceptance of animators and fiend binders right on the doorsteps of two settlements who are not okay with that. The erudite is for people like that. The arcane tower shouldn’t be. And there shouldn’t be surfacers forced into tolerating and even protecting animators, warlocks and fiend binders. Then you simply allow that to be the status quo and you get people desensitised towards that. Then you get warlocks acting like their pact is just some friendly dude sitting there giving them wholesome powers and they don’t understand why some people hate them and complain that they are the victim. If we stop normalising these sorts of characters as a server direction, we wouldn’t have these issues.

Warlock and Necromancer RP has quite a bit more potential than "haha, lol, I have smelly pet".
Unfortunately you rarely get to see it because the knee jerk reaction is to killbash and exile anyone who has a whiff of either.
Nobody is asking you to accept fiend summoners or animators. That behaviour also isn't being normalized.

But you're being asked not to yeet anyone on the spot purely because Warlock is in the character sheet and if I recall it correctly, the DMs stepping in in Cordor happened after a pillar with a massive list of people not allowed was put into the outskirts. That however is a far cry from normalizing it.

As an aside, I think it is not a good approach to link the power level of a class to how much they'll be ostracized by other players. That sounds primarily appealing for super antisocial RP.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by Nobs »

D4wN wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 10:13 am
Irongron wrote: Sun Nov 19, 2023 1:18 pm

Back in the days of yore my issue with Warlock wasn't the mechanical power (though the very first blast was off the charts), but the awful cost becoming one would not be reflected, either in the RP of the individual players (frankly a great many characters are so full of themselves and their own general awesomeness it was hard to imagine them RPing fear of their patron, and less still the lack of free will that comes with the pact), or by the mechanics themselves.

In the latter of these two cases we really don't do anything at all, so in reality the 'price' of such power is nonexistent. For a time I was in favour of a quest-like system whereby warlocks would actually be required to commit atrocities and other heinous acts in game, on behalf their patron, but in reality this could quickly become stale when coded, and I would much, much prefer it was reflected in the roleplay.

My worry? That it hasn't been, and that being a warlock is now so uncontroversial as to barely cause any scandal whatsoever.

An that's essentially my stance on their mechanical power - it's exactly what the pact was intended to bestow, so for me it is no problem.

If, of course, the price carried real in-game consequences.

If the team didn’t force players to just accept warlocks in their settlements like they’re just any other caster I don’t feel there would be this issue. The consequences were a lot harsher being a Warlock when they weren’t welcomed in surface settlements or the arcane tower. Which truthfully also brings up the whole weirdness of being forced into acceptance of animators and fiend binders right on the doorsteps of two settlements who are not okay with that. The erudite is for people like that. The arcane tower shouldn’t be. And there shouldn’t be surfacers forced into tolerating and even protecting animators, warlocks and fiend binders. Then you simply allow that to be the status quo and you get people desensitised towards that. Then you get warlocks acting like their pact is just some friendly dude sitting there giving them wholesome powers and they don’t understand why some people hate them and complain that they are the victim. If we stop normalising these sorts of characters as a server direction, we wouldn’t have these issues.

When the laws of the land are made by evil men its up to the holy warriors to stop sutch coruption.
And where are all the vigilantes who put up their finger to the law and do whats right batman style.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by Amateur Hour »

Nobs wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 12:46 pm

When the laws of the land are made by evil men its up to the holy warriors to stop sutch coruption.
And where are all the vigilantes who put up their finger to the law and do whats right batman style.

The problem here is that the "laws of the land" are the laws of DM fiat. Holy warriors can't stop the corruption of King Edward Cordor because he's an untouchable DM tool. It'd be different if, say, an evil Chancellor were elected and they could be ousted from power.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by D4wN »

Amateur Hour wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 2:41 pm
Nobs wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 12:46 pm

When the laws of the land are made by evil men its up to the holy warriors to stop sutch coruption.
And where are all the vigilantes who put up their finger to the law and do whats right batman style.

The problem here is that the "laws of the land" are the laws of DM fiat. Holy warriors can't stop the corruption of King Edward Cordor because he's an untouchable DM tool. It'd be different if, say, an evil Chancellor were elected and they could be ousted from power.

Exactly this. When King Edward tells you to do something or change something you don't have a choice. You could stand up against him and then watch your character get killed. DMs made it pretty clear nothing can be done to ever dethrone this 100+ year old man.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by Shadowy Reality »

Time to start a petition to bring back Vetinari!

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by Curve »

If your character is given an unethical order by the head of state, you have a choice to make. Go along with the order, become ethically compromised and maintain what power you are allowed by that head of state or go against that order, hold true to your ethical position and lose what power you are allowed. Like a warlock you must either make a deal with the devil or not.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by AstralUniverse »

Curve wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 4:36 pm

If your character is given an unethical order by the head of state, you have a choice to make. Go along with the order, become ethically compromised and maintain what power you are allowed by that head of state or go against that order, hold true to your ethical position and lose what power you are allowed. Like a warlock you must either make a deal with the devil or not.

Absolutely this.

But... you can also just throw eggs and rotten tomatoes on the warlock.

And anything in between.

And regardless, I also think that if the protagonist who confronts the warlock has the support of the citizens, who gives a rat about what the king says. Worst case you get fired, you spend some time actually fighting warlocks, and then eventually to get hired back after some time in a new administration cycle.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by Nobs »

D4wN wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 4:29 pm
Amateur Hour wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 2:41 pm
Nobs wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 12:46 pm

When the laws of the land are made by evil men its up to the holy warriors to stop sutch coruption.
And where are all the vigilantes who put up their finger to the law and do whats right batman style.

The problem here is that the "laws of the land" are the laws of DM fiat. Holy warriors can't stop the corruption of King Edward Cordor because he's an untouchable DM tool. It'd be different if, say, an evil Chancellor were elected and they could be ousted from power.

Exactly this. When King Edward tells you to do something or change something you don't have a choice. You could stand up against him and then watch your character get killed. DMs made it pretty clear nothing can be done to ever dethrone this 100+ year old man.

Why serve this corrupt king in that case?

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by Hin_Justice »

Nobs wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 5:41 pm

Why serve this corrupt king in that case?

Since Cordor is a starter city, my guess is, DMs want a contingency in case RP is going in a direction they feel is not what's intended for the server (Myon making Cordor a vassal for half a day to stop the Cordor Triad from ripping each other apart, comes to mind).

In the past they have done Server-wide Events to reset some RP standards - warlocks had an event to remind the island that they're not loveable teddy bears. That was back during the latter alpha/early beta phases of the bard-path warlocks, though.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by D4wN »

My point wasn't so much about 'the king told us to do this' and more about the fact that when DMs normalise Warlocks it's hard to expect your players not to do the same thing. Admins/Devs/DMs kinda set the direction for the server. Normalising animators and abyssalists/infernalists in the Arcane Tower desensitizes people as much as allowing Pirates in Guldorand or warlocks in Cordor.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by Griefmaker »

Maybe it is time to create celestial warlocks and other less obviously "evil" warlocks so if someone is doing something "warlocky" there is no catch all of "all warlocks are bad".

Actually having characters ICly have to investigate for specifics might be beneficial to the commonplace lack of meaningful RP involved in trying to out someone.

However, as to why there are so many warlocks, many people have nailed it on the head about warlocks being a very well designed and very fun class which can be used in a number of styles of play. And it is one of the few "custom" or redesigned classes that actually feels complete.

I and others I have spoken with feel like many classes are "almost there", but always feel like something is missing for the sake of sacrifice or forced balance and it makes for a very unsatisfying experience.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by Eyeliner »

There's a huge difference between "allowing" and "embracing". If I read the intentions correctly I believe the point is to create long-running tension and low-key hostility that can lead to a big story moments instead of excluding these characters on creation.

Warlocks and necromancers are allowed in these places, but that doesn't mean you have to like them or that you can't persecute them for openly summon fiends and undead if you're good.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by D4wN »

You literally can't because you will have people (even good aligned clerics etc.) defend them and paint you as the bad guy. But they're definitely not embraced in Cordor. Still, over time you get a lot more tolerance from players and players who don't understand why Warlocks are bad incl. the Warlocks who play these characters. It just naturally progressed that way where before Warlocks were banished entirely.

I do love the idea of Celestial Pacts though. That would be neat. Read up a little on that in lore and it sounds really awesome. But I remember someone saying there were no plans for it in Arelith.

Last edited by D4wN on Fri Dec 01, 2023 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Too many warlock versus other casters

Post by Kenji »

Less handholding
More pitchforks and torches
Build the rampart
Forbid the tieflings and warlocks once more!

For you, the day Kenji overhauled your class was the most important day of your life.
But for me, it was Tuesday. :face_with_monocle: To-do list

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