Stealthy

[Hazard]

The feat 'Stealthy' gives +2 to Hide and Move Silent.
It's hardly worth taking even for the most stealth obsessed builds.

What could be done to make this feat more appealing?

I had some ideas. The obvious being to just increase the amount it gives, to +4.
Or to have it make the stealther immune to the usual stealth penalties applied to certain areas (like cities).

Thoughts? Opinions?
Inevitable 'everything is fine how it is never change anything'?

Interested to hear from others.

[DM Monkey]

It goes well with the multitude of other Hide/MS feats. It's still a very common pick for people, keep in mind that it's a general feat that anyone can pick so probably shouldn't be as good as the rogue-specific ones.

[Coolguy McMagic]

I find it being a common pick hard to believe. I would assume the only people that have it are Kenku, as they get it for free.

[Subtext]

That feat, along with similar +2/+2 (Thug, Alertness...) ones should probably not be worse overall than a simple skill focus (+5). Stealth obsessed builds will go better with Skill Focus (Move Silently or Hide) every time.
Even if it didn't count for both skills.

[Paint]

The best reason to take stealthy right now is because you've gotten SF Hide/MS and ESF Hide/MS, and you still want to up your hard skillcap for both skills a little more.

Is +2 as meaningful as +5? Probably not. Is that three whole feats dedicated to hide/ms? Yeah. But it's there. It's an option if you want to take it. Sacrifice more mechanical power in other areas to keep specializing in hide/ms. It should eventually give diminishing returns, and Stealthy kinda represents that.

I don't necessarily think it needs to be any better personally, but I do like it giving some sort of other bonus, like Hazard suggested, like halving the stealth penalties in cities.

[chris a gogo]

It's +4 skill points
+2 hide and +2 MS.

Skill focus is only +5
It's pretty good if you have the room to fit it in the build.

[Svrtr]

It goes well with the multitude of other Hide/MS feats. It's still a very common pick for people, keep in mind that it's a general feat that anyone can pick so probably shouldn't be as good as the rogue-specific ones.

For reference, on arelith taking skill focus hide or move silently automatically gives the other one and both give +5

In the base game, skill focus hide and move silently are separate feats and only give +3

Stealthy definitely seems like a relic of an older time, albeit stealth is immensely strong as is. A bonus to move speed when stealthed could be neat though

[Svrtr]

It's +4 skill points
+2 hide and +2 MS.

Skill focus is only +5
It's pretty good if you have the room to fit it in the build.

Due to arelith having one frant the other it's +10 on arelith. Taking skill focus hide or MS and getting both is equivalent to talking stealthy two and a half times

[Diegovog]

You balance hide/ms in the big picture. Can't expect to change a feat value without crunching every single number of hide/ms vs spot/listen in both viable and min/max builds. Only then making a statement "hide/ms is lacking numbers, we need to increase it through less used feats" will actually mean something.

And considering less people have been making silly spot builds, I don't feel like stealthers are lacking.

[MissEvelyn]

Instead of focusing on numbers, how about an additional benefit to Stealthy?

Something like one or several of the following:
• 10% speed increase while in stealth (still subject to the cap)
• Once per minute, 50% concealment for one round after leaving stealth.
• Advantage on the first attack roll made from stealth, when successfully hidden from target.
• Once per 30 seconds, 50% speed increase for one round when entering stealth. Bonus if the speed increase tapers off gradually, over a round or two.

Just a few brainstorm ideas to get us creative with non-numeric increases

[hugolino]

The feat 'Stealthy' gives +2 to Hide and Move Silent.
It's hardly worth taking even for the most stealth obsessed builds.

What could be done to make this feat more appealing?

I had some ideas. The obvious being to just increase the amount it gives, to +4.

I'd be content with it granting +3 to Hide and +2 to Move Silently. That would at least make it equal a single Skill Focus, and would be an improvement.

[Hazard]

Instead of focusing on numbers, how about an additional benefit to Stealthy?

Something like one or several of the following:
• 10% speed increase while in stealth (still subject to the cap)
• Once per minute, 50% concealment for one round after leaving stealth.
• Advantage on the first attack roll made from stealth, when successfully hidden from target.
• Once per 30 seconds, 50% speed increase for one round when entering stealth. Bonus if the speed increase tapers off gradually, over a round or two.

Just a few brainstorm ideas to get us creative with non-numeric increases

I like these, and the idea of a little something that isn't numbers. That's neat.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I agree the feat kinda sucks, especially since hide/ms sf is infinitely better. But I would rather see it as a feat no one takes over improving stealth as is. Stealth is really strong, and since it doesn't affect the action economy (only your micromanagement skills to get to the corner and time it right) its actually in the running for the most busted thing on arelith, especially with the discount on feats arelith gives you. Once upon a time it would cost you five feats (3 pre, 2 epic) to get 1 less of each than you can now for two (one pre, one epic).

Is it any wonder that now there are even strength-based weapons master builds tapping into the power of the corner?

[Griefmaker]

Instead of focusing on numbers, how about an additional benefit to Stealthy?

Something like one or several of the following:
• 10% speed increase while in stealth (still subject to the cap)
• Once per minute, 50% concealment for one round after leaving stealth.
• Advantage on the first attack roll made from stealth, when successfully hidden from target.
• Once per 30 seconds, 50% speed increase for one round when entering stealth. Bonus if the speed increase tapers off gradually, over a round or two.

Just a few brainstorm ideas to get us creative with non-numeric increases

These are great ideas.

I especially like the stealth speed increase and ambush ideas.

[Hazard]

Just noticed Stealthy gives +3 to difficulty of people being able to read your tracks. That's something, but maybe that's the part of stealthy that could be worth boosting to +10/15 and including not just tracks but whatever other marks (on doors) and such. Unless those are all already considered the same thing.

That way it's not pumping the skills even higher, but it's a nice little niche bonus.

[MissEvelyn]

Just thought of a few more ways to make Stealthy more interesting, and give some synergies with less used combinations.

• When casting a spell, a Stealthy character is being more careful with their somatic component, increasing the Spellcraft DC to identify the spell by +5.
• When picking pockets of non-player characters while hidden, a +3 circumstance bonus to Sleight of Hand is granted.
• Characters with the Stealthy and Use Poison feats have a 10% chance to foil an Epic Diviner's efforts of discovering the race and gender of poisoner when casting Detect Poison.
• Characters -observing someone with the Stealthy feat take a -5 penalty to the Spot increase (so +15, instead of the usual +20)

Interestingly enough, you could take some of these bullet points and reverse them for the Alertness feat But that's not this thread, so I digress.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Just thought of a few more ways to make Stealthy more interesting, and give some synergies with less used combinations.

• When casting a spell, a Stealthy character is being more careful with their somatic component, increasing the Spellcraft DC to identify the spell by +5.
• When picking pockets of non-player characters while hidden, a +3 circumstance bonus to Sleight of Hand is granted.
• Characters with the Stealthy and Use Poison feats have a 10% chance to foil an Epic Diviner's efforts of discovering the race and gender of poisoner when casting Detect Poison.
• Characters -observing someone with the Stealthy feat take a -5 penalty to the Spot increase (so +15, instead of the usual +20)

Interestingly enough, you could take some of these bullet points and reverse them for the Alertness feat But that's not this thread, so I digress.

These were pretty good ideas. Your first batch gave too much to the combat aspect of stealth, which unfortunately is already too strong.

Off topic, but there really should be some consideration given toward the stealth synergy only applying to characters that both have dex as their main modifier and 2/3rds their level in a stealth class.

[Hazard]

Off topic, but there really should be some consideration given toward the stealth synergy only applying to characters that both have dex as their main modifier and 2/3rds their level in a stealth class.

That's a very good point!

[MissEvelyn]

Off topic, but there really should be some consideration given toward the stealth synergy only applying to characters that both have dex as their main modifier and 2/3rds their level in a stealth class.

Some classes might feel left out, such as Cleric Seekers, unless Paths are also included. But generally, yes, I agree, good idea! No reason to buff barbarian weaponmasters who dip in stealth even further.

[Cybren]

remove the basic +2/+2 feats as an option on level up, relegating them to granted by racial bonuses or items or spells.

[AstralUniverse]

+1 from me on the 10% movement speed bonus in stealth idea.